How to Avoid Taking a Loss when Bitcoin's Value Seesaws

BuckyOne · 01-06-17, 08:36 PM

or Mt Gox can happen and 100% is gone. That is the beauty of an unregulated market.

evo34 · 01-06-17, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Russian Rocket

you're talking about an extremely rare event right now

Obviously trailing stop is not something you set and forget and you do need to know how to manage it. But it's an effective tool, when used wisely, and it can help you gracefully liquidate a position with either a profit or a limited loss.

If you are actively "managing" it, why even have a stop? Apparently you've never been trading during a flash crash.

evo34 · 01-06-17, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by TheMoneyShot

My entire point of the post was... if you give the IRS a reason to audit you... it's simply not too bright to have bitcoin incoming and outgoing on a bnk statement. Most business professionals are considered self-employed especially if you're filing a Schedule C on a tax return.

Furthermore, yes that bitcoin debit crd everyone talks about does require a SSN. That's a standard requirement by VSA. It's not a guilty charge of you... doing any "wrong doing" per se. What are you doing? Paying bills with it etc. Where did the $ come from? I have no clue.

Are we comparing apples to apples here? When you are employed by someone... there's always a paper trail. The employer reports your wages... and you file your taxes. If you are self employed you get 1099'd. There's always a paper trail. That's the IRS's evidence. Yes, they need clear cut evidence to support any type of audit.

Where is the exact paper trail in regards to Bitcoin? Some 27-34 character (however long it is) ID link in cyberspace? With millions of transactions done daily. That's their trail? lol It's not even regulated. The only trace they have is incoming and outgoing Bitcoin on a bnk statement.

Wow. So naive. It's just a matter of time before the IRS subpoenas Bitpay like they did with Coinbase. Once the IRS has all Bitpay records (nicely organized by SSN), they just go after the top x% of volume users. At that point, the user has to prove where the funds came from; if he cannot, it's undeclared income. The "I have no clue" defense will not hold up...trust me.

Russian Rocket · 01-06-17, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by evo34

If you are actively "managing" it, why even have a stop? Apparently you've never been trading during a flash crash.

Once again a Flash crash is something that happens once in a blue moon...or like I said in my previous post 'an extremely rare event'.

You might wanna do some reading on what trailing (not just stop loss) stops do, because I don't think you fully understand their function.

Trailing stops are being utilized every single day on the stock market, forex...etc, not only by retail investors, but also by huge institutional players as well.

gauchojake · 01-06-17, 10:20 PM

Does BTC trading ever close?

BuckyOne · 01-06-17, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by gauchojake

Does BTC trading ever close?

here is a copy and paste - pretty sure they are always trading

Traditional markets are not open for trade all day, so the opening and closing price refer to the first and last price of the day. They are used as measurements for the trading activity of a day.
Since Bitcoin exchanges are open 24/7, I would expect the opening price to refer to the price at midnight and the closing to refer to the priceat 23:59:59 in the exchange's respective timezone. Since closing of the previous day is essentially the same as opening of this day, some pages such as e.g. CoinDesk only show the closing values for the historical data.
Closing price should always be the last price of the day, so it should be unambiguous.

BrickJames · 01-06-17, 11:17 PM

I sold off at 850. I have been riding it up for the past year from 400. I'm just going to take my profits and split until this thing calms down. Who knows how low it will go. Chinese are the main holder of Bitcoin and they're all selling

TheMoneyShot · 01-07-17, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by evo34

Wow. So naive. It's just a matter of time before the IRS subpoenas Bitpay like they did with Coinbase. Once the IRS has all Bitpay records (nicely organized by SSN), they just go after the top x% of volume users. At that point, the user has to prove where the funds came from; if he cannot, it's undeclared income. The "I have no clue" defense will not hold up...trust me.

IRS isn't going to subpoena BitPay. Stop reaching for drama.

Furthermore, there are several debit cards across the USA. Millions of cards loaded by other people who aren't the card holder. So, the IRS will go after those people who funded someone else's card?

There is ZERO PAPER TRAIL. ZERO. Let me spell it out one more time for you. Z E R O.

El Nino · 01-07-17, 03:24 AM

Lost hundreds on this last withdrawal in less than an hour. Fukkin' gross.

The Giant · 01-07-17, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by El Nino

Lost hundreds on this last withdrawal in less than an hour. Fukkin' gross.

Same here. I withdrew from Bookmaker a couple of days ago, and I've been getting gouged. I should have just left it there, or moved it to my bank, but I didn't.

evo34 · 01-07-17, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by TheMoneyShot

IRS isn't going to subpoena BitPay. Stop reaching for drama.

Furthermore, there are several debit cards across the USA. Millions of cards loaded by other people who aren't the card holder. So, the IRS will go after those people who funded someone else's card?

There is ZERO PAPER TRAIL. ZERO. Let me spell it out one more time for you. Z E R O.

What is a "paper" trail in your mind? Is there a paper trail at Coinbase, which was just issued a subpoena by the IRS for full records on every single user? Note that the IRS wasn't looking only for users who deposited money to a bank; they went for records of every single user. If successful there (coinbase), you better believe every bitcoin debit card issuer in the US is next on their list.

I don't really care what you do with your money personally. I'm posting for everyone else reading this so they are not fooled into believing that using a bitcoin ATM card is anonymous. Every single transaction you make is being tracked electronically and identified by your SSN. If that's "zero" trail to you, good luck down the road.

evo34 · 01-07-17, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by Russian Rocket

Once again a Flash crash is something that happens once in a blue moon...or like I said in my previous post 'an extremely rare event'.

You might wanna do some reading on what trailing (not just stop loss) stops do, because I don't think you fully understand their function.

Trailing stops are being utilized every single day on the stock market, forex...etc, not only by retail investors, but also by huge institutional players as well.

Oh, it if doesn't happen often, why worry about it? I'll keep that in mind next time I buy home insurance.

What kinds of orders do you think usually cause a flash crash, by the way? Begins with "s"...ends with "p"....

Optional · 01-07-17, 04:48 AM

There often used to be a gap in the forex market 10am first friday of each for the NFP release. I assume there still is.

Only had to get caught out by that one time to learn.

El Nino · 01-07-17, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by The Giant

Same here. I withdrew from Bookmaker a couple of days ago, and I've been getting gouged. I should have just left it there, or moved it to my bank, but I didn't.

Yep, fukkin' BS. All because the Chinese gov't made a factual statement that wasn't controversial. Everyone predicts the worse and panic sells.

BookMaker says up to 36 hours on btc withdrawal. I made my request towards the end of the day. I thought, maybe they won't get the withdrawal processed toady (has happened to me before). I go out to run errands, get the notification that the withdrawal is in my wallet, already lost $50 by that time. Transfer to coinbase, that takes another 30-45 min. By that time, lost $600 on a 5 coin withdraw. Shit dropped over $100/coin in a matter of two hours. I don't care how prompt you are in transfers. You most likely got fukked if you withdrew during these last two days.

19th Hole · 01-07-17, 08:56 AM

http://fortune.com/2017/01/06/bitcoin-price-slump/

Investor's GuideHere’s Why Bitcoin’s Price Continues to Plunge
Reuters
Updated: Jan 06, 2017

Bitcoin plunged by as much as 12% on Friday after China's central bank urgeinvestors to take a rational and cautious approach to investing in the digital currency, which is on track for its heaviest two-day drop in two years.

BrickJames · 01-07-17, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by 19th Hole

http://fortune.com/2017/01/06/bitcoin-price-slump/

Investor's GuideHere’s Why Bitcoin’s Price Continues to Plunge
Reuters
Updated: Jan 06, 2017

Bitcoin plunged by as much as 12% on Friday after China's central bank urgeinvestors to take a rational and cautious approach to investing in the digital currency, which is on track for its heaviest two-day drop in two years.

That's why it keeps falling at night

Russian Rocket · 01-07-17, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by evo34

Oh, it if doesn't happen often, why worry about it? I'll keep that in mind next time I buy home insurance.

What kinds of orders do you think usually cause a flash crash, by the way? Begins with "s"...ends with "p"....

hey good luck manually closing your orders when the next flash crash occurs

the entire world is using trailing stops, but you think that they're useless...already then

not adding a stop on your orders is a sign of a novice investor who not only doesn't care about losing his entire balance, but also doesn't have a clue what he's doing

have fun trading buddy!

KVB · 01-07-17, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by TheMoneyShot

IRS isn't going to subpoena BitPay. Stop reaching for drama.

Furthermore, there are several debit cards across the USA. Millions of cards loaded by other people who aren't the card holder. So, the IRS will go after those people who funded someone else's card?

There is ZERO PAPER TRAIL. ZERO. Let me spell it out one more time for you. Z E R O.

smh.

As far as someone else funding a card, it doesn't matter. It's the card holder getting funded that has to record the transaction.

To say there is no trail is flat out wrong.

No matter the reason bitcoin is purchased or sold, if you realize profit or loss it is on you to keep accurate records. You may not have to say who paid you in BTC, but the moment you bought and the moment you sold will need to kept in your own records.

If the IRS asks, and your records are not complete, they have no choice but to assume you may be up to no good.
Just like a professional gambler in an audit, the better records kept, the more they know you are serious.

If good records aren't kept, they know you don't mean business, and can think the worst...they don't need proof. An auditor makes a judgement call.

Every time you move in and out of BTC, you should keep a record of it...just like a record of bets.

Just because you don't have a record, doesn't mean the IRS can't require one. If you can't produce, it's on you, not them.

This nonsense of anonymous BTC is crazy and it's amazing how many have bought into it, despite giving both socials and bank account numbers. Sure, an individual transaction may seem anonymous, but to realize any non crypto currency from it will place you in the system...automatically.

Governments won't get rid of crypto currencies, far too many people have bought into it with a false narrative such as TMS'.

They let you trade BTC, never forget that. THEY let you trade BTC. You do it because they allow it, that alone should raise alarm.

RoyBacon · 01-07-17, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by evo34

What is a "paper" trail in your mind? Is there a paper trail at Coinbase, which was just issued a subpoena by the IRS for full records on every single user? Note that the IRS wasn't looking only for users who deposited money to a bank; they went for records of every single user. If successful there (coinbase), you better believe every bitcoin debit card issuer in the US is next on their list.

I don't really care what you do with your money personally. I'm posting for everyone else reading this so they are not fooled into believing that using a bitcoin ATM card is anonymous. Every single transaction you make is being tracked electronically and identified by your SSN. If that's "zero" trail to you, good luck down the road.

I would agree 99% with this post.

Remember in a IRS inquiry or an audit they will obtain all your bank account records and they will demand you produce all of your btc records as well.

If you are using btc for some anonymous reason or to skirt income tax statutes, I think that is an obvious mistake. The IRS is itching to make examples out of btc as they did with swiss banking and offshore wealth management clients.

If you really want to avoid most eyes it will take a little work. You will need a btc exchange like Bitfinex(do not use Bitstamp) and a foreign financial institution such as a bank or even a stock broker. This is a lot of work. expensive and far from fool proof. The laws requiring disclosure of foreign accounts and the financial reporting law known as FACTA were stood up to catch the clever few who would go through the trouble of what I outlined above. Unless you have an extraordinary reason, such as you are a wanted drug dealer or something, you should play BTC by every rule in the book.

RoyBacon · 01-07-17, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Russian Rocket

hey good luck manually closing your orders when the next flash crash occurs

the entire world is using trailing stops, but you think that they're useless...already then

not adding a stop on your orders is a sign of a novice investor who not only doesn't care about losing his entire balance, but also doesn't have a clue what he's doing

have fun trading buddy!

In this market I won't open a position I can't watch. It's too fast for stops but I do generally agree with your statement. If I wasn't going to watch it I would close it out. In the last 24 hrs I've seen this market drop $50 in 2 minutes and be nearly unchanged another 5 minutes later.

Russian Rocket · 01-07-17, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by RoyBacon

In this market I won't open a position I can't watch. It's too fast for stops but I do generally agree with your statement. If I wasn't going to watch it I would close it out. In the last 24 hrs I've seen this market drop $50 in 2 minutes and be nearly unchanged another 5 minutes later.

I hear what you're saying and yes, if you're just doing one order at a time, you may as well sit and watch it like a hawk.

What I was talking about is actually trading BTC (that usually brings different entry and exist points all throughout the day, week, month...etc).

And I specifically mentioned a trailing stop, because unlike a regular more common stop loss order, it adds in a dynamic component that trails the price by a certain amount (usually a set percentage) that you specify. In doing so, one of the key advantages of the trailing stop-loss order is that it allows you to lock in profits rather than hold on to a stock, bitcoin, currency or what have you, for too long only to see your profits disappear.

evo34 · 01-08-17, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by Russian Rocket

hey good luck manually closing your orders when the next flash crash occurs

the entire world is using trailing stops, but you think that they're useless...already then

not adding a stop on your orders is a sign of a novice investor who not only doesn't care about losing his entire balance, but also doesn't have a clue what he's doing

have fun trading buddy!

Unless your reaction time is in the single milliseconds...good luck! Trading had been my primary source of income for 15 years, so yeah, I've heard of your new-fangled contraption called a trailing stop. They work...until they don't.

evo34 · 01-08-17, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Russian Rocket

hey good luck manually closing your orders when the next flash crash occurs

the entire world is using trailing stops, but you think that they're useless...already then

not adding a stop on your orders is a sign of a novice investor who not only doesn't care about losing his entire balance, but also doesn't have a clue what he's doing

have fun trading buddy!

If you know anything about a flash crash, it's that you should do nothing, except wait for the market to return to normal. Automatically-triggered orders are the ones that get fukked in a flash crash, not people smart enough to sit tight.

Russian Rocket · 01-08-17, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by evo34

If you know anything about a flash crash, it's that you should do nothing, except wait for the market to return to normal. Automatically-triggered orders are the ones that get fukked in a flash crash, not people smart enough to sit tight.

yeah good luck waiting for another flash crash

let me know when it's about to happen, so I can sit and wait with ya and do nothing...all while your broker is wiping out your entire acct by closing all of your positions on the margin call

RudyRuetigger · 01-09-17, 09:20 PM

what am I doing wrong here?

Im trying to move $500 from coinbase to my bank

it wont let me click on the "sell" after clicking on buy/sale tab on left

Optional · 01-09-17, 09:29 PM

Is your funds in US$ or bitcoin right now?

If in dollars you need to make them bitcoin and then click sell.

RudyRuetigger · 01-09-17, 09:37 PM

bitcoins

on the left it says:

dashboard

buy/sell

send/request

accounts

tools

settings

I click on buy/sell..........

3 tabs at top going across......Buy........Sell.......Limits

It wont let me click on sell??

I added the $500 bout 1.5 hrs ago fwiw

RudyRuetigger · 01-09-17, 09:44 PM

I assume this is why?

In progress - Scheduled maintenance is currently in progress. We will provide updates as necessary.
<small>Jan 9, 17:30 PST</small> Scheduled - Continuing our efforts to provide a better service to our customers, we're performing more database upgrades. We will be restricting trading features for a short duration, and we expect degraded performance for some of our users as we complete maintenance.

Optional · 01-09-17, 09:53 PM

Sounds like it.

Says a short duration for trading features at least. Although almost 90 mins now.

RudyRuetigger · 01-09-17, 09:57 PM

yea, the 1 fukkin time I try to withdraw via bitcoin (have deposited before), the fukkin withdrawal function is broken and left with fluctuation

I guess luckily its only $500 but it figures

Optional · 01-09-17, 10:11 PM

Can you swap it back to US$ for now?

I would

RudyRuetigger · 01-09-17, 10:15 PM

they say cannot verify my identity right now so cannot make a usd wallet for me

BuckyOne · 01-09-17, 10:41 PM

This thread is a pretty interesting read! The time it takes to get a pending transaction confirmed can cost a guy a lot of money.

What is the solution? We cannot just send and receive 1/10th of a coin at a time to reduce risk.

Do we need a a scouting report on which exchanges give the quickest fills? We are relatively safe sitting in USD at an exchange but then you need the 2 step process to get back into bitcoin and then to go to the sportsbook? Assuming you have to buffer it?

RudyRuetigger · 01-09-17, 10:48 PM

finally was able to sell, cost me like $5 I think. oh well

Russian Rocket · 01-09-17, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by RudyRuetigger

finally was able to sell, cost me like $5 I think. oh well

that's why you should always have multiple wallets open

exchanges/wallets are the same as books - you can't rely just on a single out