Corey up to no good again, this time at Heritage. Hits 2 Royals and is owed 43K

**tuckman** · 09-07-12, 09:10 PM

Its his mothers account thats in question.

**BigDaddy** · 09-07-12, 09:12 PM

any truth to this SBR?

also if it is a open case is Justin7 handling it ?

thank you

**robmpink** · 09-07-12, 09:16 PM

Gee whiz. That family is sure lucky on Jacks or better. Wonder why?

**BigDaddy** · 09-07-12, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by robmpink

Gee whiz. That family is sure lucky on Jacks or better. Wonder why?

so are you saying they cheated?

did you miss the part where they might have sent in 30k already?

**Justin7** · 09-07-12, 09:19 PM

I handled this dispute. I issued a ruling on this a few hours ago. Just out of curiosity, who shared some of the facts with you, but omitted the full dispute summary, the investigation, discussion of facts and recommendations? The player who complained is certainly welcome to share my findings.

**BigDaddy** · 09-07-12, 09:21 PM

Justin

it was posted here

Oops! We ran into some problems.

http://forums.eog.com/showthread.php?t=333379&p=3537329#post3537329

i hope i dont get a infraction for the link

**Brick** · 09-07-12, 09:23 PM

Which way did you rule?

**tuckman** · 09-07-12, 09:23 PM

You are talking a major book in question, how about you share what you ruled. This is peoples funds that are in a well respected book and should be aware of shit like this. if this wasnt Heritage this would be plastered everwhere Justin, especially if it wasnt an SBR sponsored book. I dont wanna hear more second hand info, tell us straight from the horses mouth. Protect your players

**robmpink** · 09-07-12, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by BigDaddy

so are you saying they cheated?

did you miss the part where they might have sent in 30k already?

I don't know what I think. This guy, family, whoever, pen pal, mother, etc. Something is up.

**robmpink** · 09-07-12, 09:24 PM

From reading what I read here, airline logs and stuff is just crazy.

**Justin7** · 09-07-12, 09:30 PM

Until the player posts my ruling, or otherwise waives confidentiality, I will not go into details. If I had found wrongdoing on Heritage's part (which I did not), I would have recommended that the dispute be reported.

**Justin7** · 09-07-12, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by BigDaddy

Justin

it was posted here

Oops! We ran into some problems.

http://forums.eog.com/showthread.php?t=333379&p=3537329#post3537329

i hope i dont get a infraction for the link

I asked for the source. If you get infracted, I'll get the infraction reassigned to me.

**BigDaddy** · 09-07-12, 09:32 PM

well i sure hope the player waives whatever needs to be waived

i would like to hear more about this case.

thanks for the quick reply Justin

**tuckman** · 09-07-12, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Justin7

Until the player posts my ruling, or otherwise waives confidentiality, I will not go into details. If I had found wrongdoing on Heritage's part (which I did not), I would have recommended that the dispute be reported.

Your telling me if this was EZ street again you wouldnt have brought it to the board? I say you are full of shit. The fact that its a huge sponsor of SBR's is why it wasnt even mentioned.

**Justin7** · 09-07-12, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by tuckman

Your telling me if this was EZ street again you wouldnt have brought it to the board? I say you are full of shit. The fact that its a huge sponsor of SBR's is why it wasnt even mentioned.

In some weeks, I get 50+ complaints. I recommend reporting disputes when a book misbehaves, no matter what book it is.

**tuckman** · 09-07-12, 09:52 PM

Understand that, but this isnt your typical rollover issues, bitching about withdrawl fee's or options. You are talking 42k thru a major player in the offshore world.

**antifoil** · 09-07-12, 09:54 PM

in disputes like this, what legal justification do you use to enable the books to keep the losses, but not give up the winnings?

**Legions36** · 09-07-12, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by tuckman

Your telling me if this was EZ street again you wouldnt have brought it to the board? I say you are full of shit. The fact that its a huge sponsor of SBR's is why it wasnt even mentioned.

LOL u just now realizing this? Seems like the start of the same thing that happened at EZ, but EZ'z reputation got ruined. How come Heritage was found to have no wrong here but EZ does?

**Justin7** · 09-07-12, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by tuckman

Understand that, but this isnt your typical rollover issues, bitching about withdrawl fee's or options. You are talking 42k thru a major player in the offshore world.

Tuckman,

42k was never in dispute. If you wish to discuss this dispute, you need to either get the player's consent for SBR to disclose what happened, or post it yourself (with the player's consent). I ask that you stop posting partial truths. Either put the whole story out there, or stop rumor-mongering.

**Legions36** · 09-07-12, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Justin7

Tuckman,

42k was never in dispute. If you wish to discuss this dispute, you need to either get the player's consent for SBR to disclose what happened, or post it yourself (with the player's consent). I ask that you stop posting partial truths. Either put the whole story out there, or stop rumor-mongering.

Looks like your gonna have alot of explaining to do here when all is said and done. Everyone will be watching what happens here and that its a premium book this time, people will know if Heritage is innocent then how the hell can't EZ be innocent also.

**tuckman** · 09-07-12, 10:01 PM

And we as players ask you to post a major disputes with a major book as we are all affected by this. Not just pick and choose what you personally feel fit. I was thinking about posting up at heritage to use their casino, i kinda feel like my funds would be in question now if i won.

**Legions36** · 09-07-12, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by tuckman

And we as players ask you to post a major disputes with a major book as we are all affected by this. Not just pick and choose what you personally feel fit. I was thinking about posting up at heritage to use their casino, i kinda feel like my funds would be in question now if i won.

Heritage won't screw any legit players everyone knows that. But what everyone doesn't know is why would the same players that seem to have done the same thing at different books but Sponser Book(Heritage) no wrong and Non Sponser Book (EzStreet) was wrong, according to the judgements, doesn't take a rocket scientist to fill in the blanks here. Also notice how fast J7 was to say how many compaints and issues they get, that this is not that important.
I just really want everyone to see everything for there own eyes if this matter gets more details out because a books rep was ruined because of this, not to mention i use both books and they both pay me.

**shari91** · 09-07-12, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Legions36

Heritage won't screw any legit players everyone knows that. But what everyone doesn't know is why would the same players that seem to have done the same thing at different books but Sponser Book(Heritage) no wrong and Non Sponser Book (EzStreet) was wrong, according to the judgements, doesn't take a rocket scientist to fill in the blanks here. Also notice how fast J7 was to say how many compaints and issues they get, that this is not that important.
I just really want everyone to see everything for there own eyes if this matter gets more details out because a books rep was ruined because of this, not to mention i use both books and they both pay me.

If you don't know the facts of the case - and you definitely don't - how can you say what the player did or didn't do or why Justin7 made the ruling he did?

How about we wait to see if the player gives permission for all the details to be posted? If that happens - as Cory gave SBR permission to publish the full details about the EZStreet case - then we can make up our minds then. Seems like the logical thing we should be doing as adults no?

**Patrick McIrish** · 09-07-12, 10:28 PM

I agree we should wait before deciding what is going on. Heritage is not EZSports, we certainly should recognize the difference in the two outfits. And I will also add that it's a bit silly to automatically assume Justin is siding with a sponsor just because they are here.

However I disagree with the decision not to share information at this time. Why? Well it's clear Cory's mom has shared the information with others, if her side of it is going to be presented it only makes sense that Heritage be allowed to present their case. Cory's mom has waived confidentiality, Justin after gaining permission from Heritage needs to speak up right about now.

Just my two cents, carry on.

**tuckman** · 09-07-12, 10:56 PM

Dispute summary:
Helena Harnash opened an account at Heritage around April 1, 2012 listing a New York address. On August 28, 2012 Heritage suspended Ms. Harnash’s account due to the belief that this account was being operated by Cory Roth, a player that had been previously banned from Heritage. Ms. Harnash had made deposits of nearly $30,000. At the time of her account’s suspension, her account balance was about $40,000. There was a $3000 payout sent to the player previously which the player states was not received.

Ms. Harnash primarily played the DGS casino game “Jacks or Better”. Heritage provided a hand history dating from June 27, 2012 to August 28, 2012. The history prior to that is not currently available from Heritage due to a server change immediately before that time period. Heritage is attempting to obtain the prior history directly from DGS.

From June 27 to August 28, 2012, Ms. Harnash played 15,620 hands of Jacks or Better. Her average session was about twenty minutes, and her longest session was eighty-seven minutes. During her sessions, her average speed of play was one hand per 3.3 seconds. This was the same speed of play by Cory Roth in his earlier dispute with EasyStreetSports, which had a much larger sample of hands.

Around August 29, 2012, Heritage did an online genealogy search of Ms. Harnash. http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com.../UHP-0009.html listed Helena Harnash as the mother of Todd, Daryn and Cory Roth. SBR contacted Familytreemaker, and confirmed that any person can create a family tree; not just the family members. Consequently, this website does not prove a family relationship between Cory Roth and Helena Harnash, but it does show that Heritage had a reasonable belief that these two might be related. Heritage believes that Cory Roth is able to play the DGS Casino version of Jacks or Better with a positive edge. As a result, Heritage would not knowingly allow any person to operate an account if Cory Roth had access to that account.

During Heritage’s investigation, Heritage had several recorded discussions with Ms. Harnash. The relevant recordings are identified as:

Recording #1: Begun on August 29, 2012, 9:31 a.m. with John; duration: 2:09
Recording #2: Begun on August 29, 2012, 1:39 p.m. with John; duration: 2:08
Recording #3: Begun on August 30, 2012, 1:27 p.m. with Mike; duration 14:35

There were numerous inconsistencies in the player’s version of the facts.

Inconsistency #1: Is the player related to Cory Roth? She denies knowing Cory Roth five times. She later admits knowing him, and being related.
In recording #3, the player was asked:
Mike: Do you know somebody by the name of Cory Roth?
Helena: (Pause) Do I know him? No. Am I supposed to know him?
Mike: So you don’t know anybody named Cory Roth?
Helena: (Pause) Why would I know someone named Cory Roth? I don’t even know what this is all about. You guys took $30,000 of my money. Now you are questioning me when I ask for some of the money that I won back? Ok, who is this and what does it have to do with me… I didn’t open an account for anybody but myself.
Mike: And you say you don’t know a Cory Roth?
Helena: No I don’t.
…
Mike: And you are adamant that you don’t know a Cory Roth?
Helena: Yeah.
…
Mike: Do you know Cory Roth?
Helena: Do I know Cory Roth? Cory Roth has nothing to do with me, No.
…
Mike: Is one of those (your) Children named Cory?
Helena: No.
Mike: If I had information contrary to that, you would refute that as well.
Helena: (Pause) Look, I want to know what this is about.
…
Mike: Cory Roth is not one of your children, correct?
Helena: Right
Mike: Do you know Todd Roth?
Helena: Yes I know Todd Roth
Mike: Is Todd your son?
Helena: No he’s my nephew.
Mike: Is Cory Roth your nephew?
Helena: Yes he is nephew.

Ms. Harnash later writes a letter to SBR starting with:

Hi Justin,
This is Cory's mother.

Inconsistency #2: Where was Helena located while this account was active? She originally claims she opened it and played in New York. She later changes her version, stating she was almost exclusively in Florida.
Recording #1:
John: No one else has access to this account?
Helena: No. I got off a ship in Royal Caribbean. Recently I caught a plane and I’ve been in Florida.

Recording #2:
John: Where do you reside?
Helena: New York.
John: Where do you play?
Helena: New York.

Recording #3:

Mike: You’re in New York?
Helena: No I’m not. I just got off a ship… I am stuck here; I went to my cousin’s house.
Mike: How long have you been in Florida?
Helena: (Pause) How long? When I just got off a ship we got off on Tuesday.
Mike: And you opened your account in New York?
Helena: Yes, in New York
…
Mike: And when you opened this account, you opened it in New York?
Helena: Yes, from New York.
…
Helena: Look, I have a house. Ok I live with my cousin here in Florida; I live at home in New York as my main base house.
…
Mike: Have you been in Florida for four months? Five months?
Helena: No I was in New York.
Mike: So every single play I see that comes from Florida; that was you in New York?
Helena: I bet in New York, I bet in Florida. You can check Blue airlines, I am back and forth. Cause I have two houses.

In email discussions with SBR, the following exchange occurred:
Helena: I want to say I was in NY on April 26th-May 8th.

SBR: This is a very important detail. I would like you to check your calendar and your planner. Contact Jetblue and ask them. Think of every possible way you can to determine what days you were in New York. Once you do this, tell me. After you commit, those dates will be set in stone.

Helena: I didnt anticipate on someone wanting to see my Airline records so I didnt keep them. As I told you yesterday Jetblue only keeps records for 30 days after the flight. I can only verify I was in Ny from the time of April 26th to May 8th of 2012.

**Justin7** · 09-07-12, 11:00 PM

I'll take the previous post by tuckman as a waiver. Here is the ruling in its entirety.

Dispute summary:
Helena Harnash opened an account at Heritage around April 1, 2012 listing a New York address. On August 28, 2012 Heritage suspended Ms. Harnash’s account due to the belief that this account was being operated by Cory Roth, a player that had been previously banned from Heritage. Ms. Harnash had made deposits of nearly $30,000. At the time of her account’s suspension, her account balance was about $40,000. There was a $3000 payout sent to the player previously which the player states was not received.
Ms. Harnash primarily played the DGS casino game “Jacks or Better”. Heritage provided SBR with a hand history and IP log dating from June 27, 2012 to August 28, 2012. The history prior to that is not currently available from Heritage due to a server change immediately before that time period. Heritage is attempting to obtain the prior history directly from DGS.
From June 27 to August 28, 2012, Ms. Harnash played 15,620 hands of Jacks or Better. Her average session was about twenty minutes, and her longest session was eighty-seven minutes. During her sessions, her average speed of play was one hand per 3.3 seconds. This was the same speed of play by Cory Roth in his earlier dispute with EasyStreetSports, which had a much larger sample of hands. All sessions were traced to one of several Florida IP addresses.
Around August 29, 2012, Heritage did an online genealogy search of Ms. Harnash. http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com.../UHP-0009.html listed Helena Harnash as the mother of Todd, Daryn and Cory Roth. SBR contacted Familytreemaker, and confirmed that any person can create a family tree; not just the family members. Consequently, this website does not prove a family relationship between Cory Roth and Helena Harnash, but it does show that Heritage had a reasonable belief that these two might be related. Heritage believed that Cory Roth is able to play the DGS Casino version of Jacks or Better with a positive edge. As a result, Heritage would not knowingly allow any person to operate an account if Cory Roth had access to that account.
During Heritage’s investigation, Heritage had several recorded discussions with Ms. Harnash. The relevant recordings are identified as:
Recording #1: Begun on August 29, 2012, 9:31 a.m. with John; duration: 2:09
Recording #2: Begun on August 29, 2012, 1:39 p.m. with John; duration: 2:08
Recording #3: Begun on August 30, 2012, 1:27 p.m. with Mike; duration 14:35
There were numerous inconsistencies in the player’s version of the facts.
Inconsistency #1: Is the player related to Cory Roth? Ms. Harnash denied knowing Cory Roth five times. She later admitted knowing him, and being related.
In recording #3 (August 30, 2012), the player was asked:
Mike: Do you know somebody by the name of Cory Roth?
Ms. Harnash: (Pause) Do I know him? No. Am I supposed to know him?
Mike: So you don’t know anybody named Cory Roth?
Ms. Harnash: (Pause) Why would I know someone named Cory Roth? I don’t even know what this is all about. You guys took $30,000 of my money. Now you are questioning me when I ask for some of the money that I won back? Ok, who is this and what does it have to do with me… I didn’t open an account for anybody but myself.
Mike: And you say you don’t know a Cory Roth?
Ms. Harnash: No I don’t.
…
Mike: And you are adamant that you don’t know a Cory Roth?
Ms. Harnash: Yeah.
…
Mike: Do you know Cory Roth?
Ms. Harnash: Do I know Cory Roth? Cory Roth has nothing to do with me, No.
…
Mike: Is one of those (your) Children named Cory?
Ms. Harnash: No.
Mike: If I had information contrary to that, you would refute that as well.
Ms. Harnash: (Pause) Look, I want to know what this is about.
…
Mike: Cory Roth is not one of your children, correct?
Ms. Harnash: Right
Mike: Do you know Todd Roth?
Ms. Harnash: Yes I know Todd Roth
Mike: Is Todd your son?
Ms. Harnash: No he’s my nephew.
Mike: Is Cory Roth your nephew?
Ms. Harnash: Yes he is nephew.

Ms. Harnash later wrote a letter to SBR (September 2, 2012) starting with:

Hi Justin,
This is Cory's mother.

Inconsistency #2: Where was Ms. Harnash located while this account was active? She originally claimed that she opened it and played in New York. She later changed her version, stating she was almost exclusively in Florida.
Recording #1 (August 29, 2012):
John: No one else has access to this account?
Ms. Harnash: No. I got off a ship in Royal Caribbean. Recently I caught a plane and I’ve been in Florida.

Recording #2 (August 29, 2012):
John: Where do you reside?
Ms. Harnash: New York.
John: Where do you play?
Ms. Harnash: New York.

Recording #3 (August 30, 2012):

Mike: You’re in New York?
Ms. Harnash: No I’m not. I just got off a ship… I am stuck here; I went to my cousin’s house.
Mike: How long have you been in Florida?
Ms. Harnash: (Pause) How long? When I just got off a ship we got off on Tuesday.
Mike: And you opened your account in New York?
Ms. Harnash: Yes, in New York
…
Mike: And when you opened this account, you opened it in New York?
Ms. Harnash: Yes, from New York.
…
Ms. Harnash: Look, I have a house. Ok I live with my cousin here in Florida; I live at home in New York as my main base house.
…
Mike: Have you been in Florida for four months? Five months?
Ms. Harnash: No I was in New York.
Mike: So every single play I see that comes from Florida; that was you in New York?
Ms. Harnash: I bet in New York, I bet in Florida. You can check Blue airlines, I am back and forth. Cause I have two houses.

In email discussions with SBR, the following exchange occurred:
Ms. Harnash (September 5, 2012): I want to say I was in NY on April 26th-May 8th.

Ms. Harnash (September 5, 2012): I hurt my knee on a cruise ship in February and was in Florida at the time the account was open.

SBR (September 6, 2012): This is a very important detail. I would like you to check your calendar and your planner. Contact JetBlue and ask them. Think of every possible way you can to determine what days you were in New York. Once you do this, tell me. After you commit, those dates will be set in stone.

Ms. Harnash: (September 6, 2012): I didnt anticipate on someone wanting to see my Airline records so I didnt keep them. As I told you yesterday Jetblue only keeps records for 30 days after the flight. I can only verify I was in Ny from the time of April 26th to May 8th of 2012.

Investigation
On September 5, 2012 SBR requested JetBlue flight records from Ms. Harnash. That same day, Ms. Harnash incorrectly stated that JetBlue only kept flights from the last thirty days, and that there were no records of flights in her account. SBR confirmed that JetBlue tracks flights for at least the current year. On September 7, 2012 SBR requested access to Ms. Harnash’s online JetBlue account, or in the alternative, that Ms. Harnash execute a release authorizing JetBlue to disclose her flight information for the last five months. Ms. Harnash refused to cooperate with the investigation, stating in email “I am not giving out anymore personal information.”
Ms. Harnash’s account was accessed hundreds of times from various Florida IP addresses. There were no New York IP addresses in the logs dating back to June 27, 2012.
Discussion
Ms. Harnash has given contradictory statements on whether she was in Florida or New York. On August 30, she told Heritage that she was in New York, and played from New York for most of the five months prior to the account suspension. That possibility was refuted by the IP logs which showed all the play coming from Florida. On September 5, 2012 she later changed her version, telling SBR that she was in Florida almost the entire time. In addition to contradicting her earlier statement, Ms. Harnash’s revised statement seems to contradict her August 29, 2012 version, where she stated that “I just got off a plane” in recording #1. The inference from that statement was that she was in New York before getting on a plane. On September 6, 2012 she denied to SBR that she was on a plane in August.
The central issue was where Ms. Harnash was physically located during the five months prior to the account suspension. She gave numerous inconsistent statements on that issue. The least intrusive way to find out where she was located would be to review her JetBlue flight records.
Ms. Harnash had access to her online JetBlue flight records which would very likely show whether she was in New York or Florida during the time period of June through August. It would directly support or refute her revised story, in which she denied flying in August. Ms. Harnash refused to allow SBR to have access to this. When a party controls requested evidence, and refuses to allow others access to it, it can be inferred that the evidence is harmful to that party’s case. In this matter, Ms. Harnash’s refusal to provide the JetBlue flight records is being treated as an admission that she was in New York for the entire time period, except the limited time periods where she documented that she was in Florida (such as with the Cruise tickets).
Her account was accessed from Florida hundreds of times while she was in New York. Her account was never accessed from New York. The play of Jacks or Better was at the speed that most players cannot easily duplicate. The speed of play was nearly identical to that of Cory Roth; one hand every 3.3 seconds.
SBR concluded that Ms. Harnash created an alias account for Cory Roth to access Heritage without Heritage’s knowledge. As Heritage had already banned Cory Roth and refused to do business with him, Helena Harnash’s conduct constituted willful fraud against Heritage.
Recommendations
Heritage should void all activity of this player. The balance (which is the sum of all the deposits made by the player) will be charged the cost of transactions related to withdrawals and deposits. Heritage should return the remainder to the player.

**tuckman** · 09-07-12, 11:01 PM

That was posted elsewhere, not like its considered private info anymore

**Brick** · 09-07-12, 11:01 PM

Justin, i dont see what Helena did wrong there or what proof they have that she wasnt playing. Just because it sounds fishy doesnt mean you can keep 40k from somebody. Will there be a lie detector test in the near future?

**tuckman** · 09-07-12, 11:03 PM

Recommendations
Heritage should void all activity of this player. The balance (which is the sum of all the deposits made by the player) will be charged the cost of transactions related to withdrawals and deposits. Heritage should return the remainder to the player.

**Brick** · 09-07-12, 11:05 PM

Laughable that this lady has to prove where she was on certain dates.

**Patrick McIrish** · 09-07-12, 11:07 PM

What dollar amount exactly is going to be returned?

**BigDaddy** · 09-07-12, 11:07 PM

so what amount is she getting back?

is she actually losing on this?

the simple version

i am not that smart.

**BigDaddy** · 09-07-12, 11:08 PM

haha

at least i am not the only one

JK

PM

**shari91** · 09-07-12, 11:09 PM

" Ms. Harnash had made deposits of nearly $30,000"

"The balance (which is the sum of all the deposits made by the player) will be charged the cost of transactions related to withdrawals and deposits. Heritage should return the remainder to the player."