Youwin.com - Winnings Confiscated due to "Suspicious Betting Patterns".

[ma_27]

First time poster, longtime SBR fan.

I won 349.20EUR at Youwin.com betting on a draw @ 3.00 in yesterday's Russian Division 1 match between Petrotrest and Khimki.

The game ended 0-0 and I received my payout after inquiring about the delay with customer services. Since then, my total available balance has been taken from my account. Customer services informed me, after several contact attempts, that a decision was made by the trading team to investigate the match for suspicious betting circumstances and will inform me of their decision when made.

As I know that other bookmakers have paid out on the result, I know that it is not an external issue. However, I am slightly concerned as only a few bookmakers were taking bets on this match before kick-off because of the low price for the draw (2.85 @ Betfair) and I feel that Youwin could use this as a reason to withhold my funds.

Any advise/assistance offered welcome.

Thanks.

[SBR Lou]

Hi ma_27,

Welcome to SBR.

Please submit a sportsbook complaint form so that an analyst can assist you.

[filipinho]

SBR you can use this to convince those cheaters from Youwinn that other books payed normally to their customers(188bet, Bwin,Gamebookers,Partybets,ladbrokes and one local shop).First four are livebets, last one is from Partybets 48h prior to match.Hope this will help.

[Justin7]

Fill out a complaint, and we will discuss it.

[ivanhoe]

Justin7, I too have the same situation as thread starter.My bet on draw is not settled jet.I will complain for sure, but only after I give Youwin some time to "investigate".

[ma_27]

Thanks all for the advice. Like Ivanhoe, I want to give them time to investigate as I don't want negative reporcussions from reporting them in the long run. Or would you advise us to submit the form and let SBR take total control now rather than allowing the to draw out their "investigation?

Thanks also for the pics filipinho.

[filipinho]

Some new screenshoots, all books payed except Youwin.Well, if I remember correctly some guy complained here on forum that Youwin is investigating his tennis bet for some months without result, so maybe it is better for you to give SBR permission to discuss this immediately.

[ma_27]

Thanks filipinho. I've submitted the complaint to SBR. I'll update this thread with the situation's progress.

[arbhound]

They cited "suspicious betting patterns" as their reason for their "investigation".
Is there any plausible basis at all for investigating a match where they don't suspect that the match was fixed (which evidently is not the case)? I could see them looking into 2 or more players' bets where they suspect both players because of their bet sizes of dutching a bonus or arbing with a sister book but they apparently are avoiding paying out any winning bets whatever on the match.

[skrtelfan]

If the line's only slightly better than Betfair, they should pay.

[filipinho]

It has NOTHING with the line, odds are irrelevant here.You are not familiar with the match in question.They think match was fixed because a lot of people were betting on draw and it ended draw.On the day of the match all bookmakers blocked the match, price on draw went as low as 1.65(Marathon), 2.25(bet365)...Youwin will now drag on this so called "investigation" for months if SBR dont squeeze them, all the books payed on draw, they should too.Here is what main coach of Petrotrest said(google translate):

- Today there was information that some bookmakers do not accept bets on this match. How do you feel about that?

- I'm not good in these cases. But I was told that such information is passed, when I came to the stadium. I confess to you that those players and coaches, who are now in command, as I trust myself. It is impossible in principle. I told the guys that we now have extra motivation to fight.

[121212]

If your case is anything like mine was (ages ago now), they will investigate forever. It's simply a stalling tactic. I bet on a tennis match and my wager was a winner. Other bookmakers paid out, there was no ATP investigation into the match and the line wasn't bad. They froze my account for over 3 months to conduct an investigation and refused to give any updates on the investigation that was allegedly being carried out. This also involved seizing my funds that were not in play.

I had to involve SBR and the LGA. Youwin refused to deal with SBR and said it would only deal with the LGA, who are notoriously bad at helping the player out. Thankfully, because this was such a blatant act of theft, even the LGA couldn't side with Youwin and Youwin managed to conclude the investigation and pay up within about 5 months, essentially after pressure from the LGA and SBR. This was all for a wager of about 100 Euro.

They will also demand about 10 forms of ID and insist that the quality of the scans that you provide are too poor to be considered valid. If you are special, you might even get telephone calls from some wideboy from London saying that if you want your money, you'll need a lawyer as the only way they'll pay you is if a judge orders them to.

It's an absolute disgrace of a book and I'd rather shove my bellend into a blender than ever deposit there again. It's run by liars, cheats and thieves. Seriously, avoid at all costs; it's just not worth the hassle.

To the OP: don't involve the LGA until SBR has had a go first, as their position in my dispute was that they'd not deal with SBR once the LGA was involved. Good luck. You'll probably get your money, but don't expect it any time soon.

[arbhound]

It has NOTHING with the line, odds are irrelevant here.You are not familiar with the match in question.They think match was fixed because a lot of people were betting on draw and it ended draw.On the day of the match all bookmakers blocked the match, price on draw went as low as 1.65(Marathon), 2.25(bet365)...Youwin will now drag on this so called "investigation" for months if SBR dont squeeze them, all the books payed on draw, they should too.Here is what main coach of Petrotrest said(google translate):

- Today there was information that some bookmakers do not accept bets on this match. How do you feel about that?

- I'm not good in these cases. But I was told that such information is passed, when I came to the stadium. I confess to you that those players and coaches, who are now in command, as I trust myself. It is impossible in principle. I told the guys that we now have extra motivation to fight.

If You(can't)win welches on bets made on this match, especially since they were well on their way to rehabilitating their well-tarnished reputation, I predict it will cost them more than the pittance they would have paid out in future action but typical short-sighted bookie mentality dictates such action.

BTW, does anyone know if any of the losers' bets have been graded as lost?

[Maniac]

http://txodds.com/odds+comparison/soccer/russia/1.+division/12/2012-08-13/petrotrest+vs+khimki?ocsortord=0&md_flags_cookie=0&md_flags=80&ost=2

According to this link, I can see that a couple of books really shortened the price on the Draw (Assuming the Draw is the middle column), but I cant find anything to suggest that this match is actually being treated/reported as a fixed game. Most likely one of them games where they suspect foul play and suspended betting, but there really isnt enough evidence, or really any way to prove it, so just suspended the betting and paid out what they had taken.

It is a bit deceiving as only shows the last price change and doesnt show if or when betting would have been suspended, but 365's last move was to +110, Boyles +120, Stans +138.

Just from this page it looks like the game started at around 14:30 UTC on the 13th, and VCBet seem to have traded it Live - if you hover over their price the last price move was +180 @ 20:37 UTC on the 12th and then nothing till 14:33 on the 13th, at which point the price was +105, and continued to drop as the game went on. (need to uncheck the "Hide Live Odds" box at the top to see the live price changes when you hover over them)

This suggests to me that they suspended betting at +180 and didnt reopen again until kickoff - again none of this is really enough proof for Youwin to take your balance, but it does definately suggest something was up. They should just suck it up, pay you in full and if they are still feeling hard done by then limit you or close your account !

[arbhound]

They should just suck it up, pay you in full and if they are still feeling hard done by then limit you or close your account !

That is what any houourable book would do, absent incontrovertable proof that the match was fixed. It's probably, unfortunately, too much to expect from a book that would be doing punters a favour by limiting them and an even bigger favour by closing their accounts

[ma_27]

Thanks all or your input. I received this email earlier from them.
________
Dear ma_27,

Thank you for contacting youwin.com Support.

Kindly note that the resolution about this match can take a few days due to is under investigation. You can wait until we determinate what is going to happen with this market. In the other hand we can offer you to void the bet and get the stake back in your account.

Please do not hesitate to contact us for any further assistance.

Best regards,

David
Customer Care Agent

https://www.youwin.com

________

I've replied with Filipinho's images to back up my claim that everyone else paid out so I'm hoping this will be sorted out very soon.

I'll keep you all updated.

[filipinho]

Good news that they set so short time frame for decision.They cant do nothing than pay.Only if Russian FA cancels the match and declares it fixed, it would be acceptable to void bets.But there is not much talk in russian media about that.

[muffins]

They cited "suspicious betting patterns" as their reason for their "investigation".
Is there any plausible basis at all for investigating a match where they don't suspect that the match was fixed (which evidently is not the case)?

They do suspect the match was fixed. A flood of money from all and sundry (do you think filipinho, Ivanhoe and ma_27 are all Russian Div 1 soccer experts?) on an outcome that goes from $3 in to $2 or less on a soccer match is a damn good indication of a fix. Probably took thousands or tens of thousands on a league that would be lucky to hold $1k a week, let alone a match.

That being said, they hsve to cop it and pay. But will be a lot of account closures in coming weeks at Youwin methinks.

[arbhound]

They do suspect the match was fixed. A flood of money from all and sundry (do you think filipinho, Ivanhoe and ma_27 are all Russian Div 1 soccer experts?) on an outcome that goes from $3 in to $2 or less on a soccer match is a damn good indication of a fix. Probably took thousands or tens of thousands on a league that would be lucky to hold $1k a week, let alone a match.

That being said, they hsve to cop it and pay. But will be a lot of account closures in coming weeks at Youwin methinks.

They don't have to be Div 1 experts to read a league table and see that Petrotest and Khimiki are roughly evenly matched teams that drew 1 and 2 of the last 3 and 4 home and away games respectively and bore drew 2 and 1 of their last 5 matches respectively and conclude that 2/1 is a reasonably good price for the draw. And they are not either Div. 1 experts or Russian mob members who are in on a fix, if that or something like it is what you're trying to imply. They could be both or (far more likely), neither.

[ma_27]

New email from Youwin. They seem to have dismissed the screenshots so I'm not feeling as confident.
_______
Dear ma_27,

Thank you for contacting youwin.com Support.

Please note that each company have their own decisions on how to deal with certain issues. Kindly be advised that we will continue with our investigation and we will inform you accordingly once this have been finalized.

Please do not hesitate to contact us for any further assistance.

Best regards,
Daniela
Customer Care Agent

https://www.youwin.com

_______

[muffins]

They don't have to be Div 1 experts to read a league table and see that Petrotest and Khimiki are roughly evenly matched teams that drew 1 and 2 of the last 3 and 4 home and away games respectively and bore drew 2 and 1 of their last 5 matches respectively and conclude that 2/1 is a reasonably good price for the draw. And they are not either Div. 1 experts or Russian mob members who are in on a fix, if that or something like it is what you're trying to imply. They could be both or (far more likely), neither.

So you are arguing that people wagered on this match because the correct price for a draw was $2 or less, the bookies around the world incorrectly priced it at $3, that all those who wagered on it did so because they had reviewed the match/table and their analysis showed value? Incredibly naive.

[mark444]

Problems with You Win

Hi, have just registered after finding this discussion on You Win.

Not a great deal to add, but wanted to re-iterate the problems encountered by ma_27...I also backed this match as a draw and queried why it hadn't paid out after 2 days, and was told by You Win that the match was being investigated (as of tonight it is still pending on my account).

I joined You Win in June to take up their free bet offer and have regretted it ever since. I won the initial bet and the subsequent free bet and then had my winnings withdrawn after being accused of 'promotional abuse'. I wrote them a strongly-worded email to voice my disgust at this accusation and they apologised and refunded my winnings.

After completing their fairly stringent rollover requirements I tried to withdraw some of my winnings, only to encounter similar problems to 121212 - I was quite uncomfortable about sending copies of my passport and CC, but on researching it, it seemed that this was common practice, so I followed their requests, but they kept on insisting on higher quality scans of my passport (even though the copies that I was sending were very clear and easily readable). I began to question why a Maltese-based Bookmaker would require such high-quality images of my documents, and decided to stop sending them.

I'm now trying to think of other ways to get hold of the money in my account...I'm a really small-scale punter, but my £25 deposit has turned into nearly £600, and I'm loathe to just let that go.

So, I would agree with all the comments, and would advise anyone to avoid You Win at all costs - if anyone has any bright ideas as to how to get the money out without risking my identity being ripped off (I actually suspect that they would never pay out anyway), it would be greatly appreciated.

[Jerm3462]

What a shit book.
Why do people play at these outfits?

[mark444]

I'm no professional, just a regular small-scale punter...you don't know that they're a problem until you give them a go and try to get your money out. All you can really do is try to warn others to stay away on forums like SBR - but then I wouldn't have found this forum if I hadn't had the problem in the first place!!!

[arbhound]

So you are arguing that people wagered on this match because the correct price for a draw was $2 or less, the bookies around the world incorrectly priced it at $3, that all those who wagered on it did so because they had reviewed the match/table and their analysis showed value? Incredibly naive.

2/1 = 3.00 in European odds format. I never said that all bettors analysed the match and bet based on that. Certainly if it was fixed some of the bettors knew. I'm merely arguing that it doesn´t follow from the posters here betting on a draw match, even if it was indeed fixed, that they knew it was fixed.

C

[muffins]

Yeah not arguing that those bettors knew it was fixed, it may not have been and they were almost certainly simply taking a price that was out of line with the market. Simply correcting your statement that the book didn't suspect the match was fixed. Obviously lots of people and lots of books suspected a fixed match, hence the massive plunge on the draw and the suspending of the match by many books.

[ivanhoe]

I just withdrawn my remaining balance from Youwin 650EUR to Moneybookers without problems.Now there is just that pending bet..As filipinho said, it would be only acceptable to void bets if Russian FA or UEFA declares match fixed.

93911809	2012-08-12 12:42:13	PETROTREST V KHIMKI / MATCH RESULT / DRAW. @ 3.05	PENDING	STRAIGHT BET	146€

[mark444]

Hi Ivanhoe,

Do you mind telling me what you had to provide to You Win in order to get your money out...I keep sending them pictures of my passport, but they keep replying that they need to be at a higher resolution, even though they are perfectly clear and readable.

I really would like to close my account with them now, and forget I ever heard of them, but can't afford to write the money off...any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks...

[121212]

Mark,

In the end they accepted a photograph taken with my iPhone of my passport and driving licence, but only when I said I can't think of any other way of getting a better picture. I even offered to have the scans notarised by a lawyer etc in order to prove that they were legitimate. Try your driving licence photocard if you have one (I'm assuming you're from the UK so will have the same as me), as it seems to photograph more clearly.

They definitely have some UK presence, as I received a telephone call from some Cockney chancer threatening me with legal action etc. For what I'm not sure, and neither was he, but hey ho, no need for that to get in the way of a good threat.

[mark444]

Thanks for that, I'll give it another try, cheers...

[arbhound]

Any word on the complaints?

[ma_27]

Nothing yet. Waiting to hear back from SBR too.

[filipinho]

To the OP: don't involve the LGA until SBR has had a go first, as their position in my dispute was that they'd not deal with SBR once the LGA was involved. Good luck. You'll probably get your money, but don't expect it any time soon.

Will someone from SBR inform us did you managed to communicate with Youwin about this case and is there any progress? Justin7? Or we should now try with LGA?

[filipinho]

Will someone from SBR inform us did you managed to communicate with Youwin about this case and is there any progress? Justin7? Or we should now try with LGA?

SBR?

[Justin7]

Youwin is not being responsive. They have a new person addressing disputes. She is not nearly as precise or timely in responding as the CEO, who no longer wanted to address disputes after I suggested that their bonus forfeitures were unfair in several situations.