Avoid taxation in Europe...

[Swede]

I guess people may not want to answer this kind of question in the national forums so i will give it a go here instead.

Background:

In my country you pay 30 % of tax from winnings outside europe. I think that is fair, though it is a BIG but here, it is counted on every bet. If i deposit 1000 $ at Pinnacle and then makes 10 000 turnover, quits playing and have 1000 $ in my account and make a withdrawal I should pay 10 000 x 0,3 = 3 000 $ in taxes when I have not gained a cent.

Question:

How do i get the money out of moneybookers without any goverment taxation agency noticing it?

[vercer]

moneybookers **

[noyb]

in my country at least the tax service has announced all over the media they are aware of the **-loophole (mainly related to online poker) and are making it a priority checking up on these, also when smaller amounts are involved.

swede, if you play with small amounts the tax service won't care. if you play with big amounts the tax service likely also won't notice, but if they do, you're screwed. talk to them and explain the situation; assuming you're from sweden i'm from a different country then you but my country has similar laws and here there are (legal) ways around this. there might also be over there.

[Swede]

in my country at least the tax service has announced all over the media they are aware of the **-loophole (mainly related to online poker) and are making it a priority checking up on these, also when smaller amounts are involved.

swede, if you play with small amounts the tax service won't care. if you play with big amounts the tax service likely also won't notice, but if they do, you're screwed. talk to them and explain the situation; assuming you're from sweden i'm from a different country then you but my country has similar laws and here there are (legal) ways around this. there might also be over there.

Thanx for the answer! The funny thing is that I worked there (tax-agency) as late as this summer... They told me that the limit was 10k € for banks to send info to the tax agency, but i am not sure if they put them together if you make several lower payments.. What I do know is that Swedish tax-agency are more stiff then Chuck Norris chest-muscles, and if i ask them they will just tell me to pay everything...

I had hoped for someway to send the money around.. Is it possible to open an off-shore bank-account and transfer the money there from Moneybookes? I guess i still need to get them out of the off-shore account but that may be more inviesable to the tax-agency...

[noyb]

Is it possible to open an off-shore bank-account and transfer the money there from Moneybookes? I guess i still need to get them out of the off-shore account but that may be more inviesable to the tax-agency...

i have no idea what stakes you are playing but unless (and even then) you regularly move around 5 digits and have total betting money well into 6 digits no way the cost of this will outweigh the benefits.
opening a bank account abroad has become increasingly difficult, but by no means impossible. it's not even very expensive in most countries, altough you might have to visit the country. this is not what you would be looking for though, as most countries have treaties with regards to reporting bank accounts of foreigners to the local tax service. to get an offshore account in a country that doesn't report is a different story. most eu countries have caved in already, even switzerland isn't what it used to be. so basically to be safe you would need to open an account outside of the eu, in a tax haven somewhere around the world. the costs to set this up are excessive, as well as the minimum balance you should hold (minimum of 6 digits in euro at all times, otherwise a hefty monthly fee, the ones i looked anyway). people who take this route to evade tax generally are sitting on millions and can afford it, you likely can't. getting the money back to you is another problem and basically the exact same problem you faced to begin with before setting up the bank account altogether.
besides, you wrote "transfer the money from there to Moneybookers": obv using Moneybookers at all for non eu books would be a very bad plan if you are trying to evade taxes. Unlike a book (some might as well btw) Moneybookers will report all of your transactions without hesitation if they are asked to.
finally, if you are ever going to get caught hiding funds offshore there's no way to play stupid. what you did will be regarded as totally deliberate with the sole goal to evade tax. you'll have to pay all the tax you should have paid plus a fine (probably bankrupting you altogether) plus you'll have a criminal record from that moment on. is that worth it? at least, without going offshore if you are ever going to get audited you might get the sympathy vote claiming you didn't know, with an offshore account you can't.

all in all, going offshore to me sounds like a very bad plan in your situation. if you're really serious, move your betting activitities abroad. i'm not going to spell out how to do this, but it's pretty obvious and only worth it if your stakes and betting skills are worth it. don't try to save up here: don't get a virtual foreign address, get a real one. otherwise, play stupid or talk to the tax people / financial advisor in your country if there are any deals / loopholes to be made.

[Chopsticks]

I can't imagine they would bother checking it. As long as you get the money from Moneybookers then it would be difficult for them to trace the origin of the money. Surely a lot of people use Moneybookers or other ewallets and there is no way they want to check out all those people.... it would probably not be easy for them to get the information they wanted anyway.

[Swede]

i have no idea what stakes you are playing but unless (and even then) you regularly move around 5 digits and have total betting money well into 6 digits no way the cost of this will outweigh the benefits.
opening a bank account abroad has become increasingly difficult, but by no means impossible. it's not even very expensive in most countries, altough you might have to visit the country. this is not what you would be looking for though, as most countries have treaties with regards to reporting bank accounts of foreigners to the local tax service. to get an offshore account in a country that doesn't report is a different story. most eu countries have caved in already, even switzerland isn't what it used to be. so basically to be safe you would need to open an account outside of the eu, in a tax haven somewhere around the world. the costs to set this up are excessive, as well as the minimum balance you should hold (minimum of 6 digits in euro at all times, otherwise a hefty monthly fee, the ones i looked anyway). people who take this route to evade tax generally are sitting on millions and can afford it, you likely can't. getting the money back to you is another problem and basically the exact same problem you faced to begin with before setting up the bank account altogether.
besides, you wrote "transfer the money from there to Moneybookers": obv using Moneybookers at all for non eu books would be a very bad plan if you are trying to evade taxes. Unlike a book (some might as well btw) Moneybookers will report all of your transactions without hesitation if they are asked to.
finally, if you are ever going to get caught hiding funds offshore there's no way to play stupid. what you did will be regarded as totally deliberate with the sole goal to evade tax. you'll have to pay all the tax you should have paid plus a fine (probably bankrupting you altogether) plus you'll have a criminal record from that moment on. is that worth it? at least, without going offshore if you are ever going to get audited you might get the sympathy vote claiming you didn't know, with an offshore account you can't.

all in all, going offshore to me sounds like a very bad plan in your situation. if you're really serious, move your betting activitities abroad. i'm not going to spell out how to do this, but it's pretty obvious and only worth it if your stakes and betting skills are worth it. don't try to save up here: don't get a virtual foreign address, get a real one. otherwise, play stupid or talk to the tax people / financial advisor in your country if there are any deals / loopholes to be made.

I really want to thank you for your answer, it really made me change my mind. It is not by far any millions of euro. I think i will report my winnings from this bookmakers instead and just rely on them not applying the rule of taxes on every bet.

One thing I wonder though is which way do you think it is best to deal with non-EU bookies if you dont use moneybookers?

[Hareeba!]

I can't imagine they would bother checking it. As long as you get the money from Moneybookers then it would be difficult for them to trace the origin of the money. Surely a lot of people use Moneybookers or other ewallets and there is no way they want to check out all those people.... it would probably not be easy for them to get the information they wanted anyway.

computerised matching isn't such a difficult task when you'd had to prove your ID details

[Stifter]

I personally use the Neteller+ card. I use it for ATM and shopping. I guess Moneybookers have a similar system.
Ideal to avoid interfering governments.

[acw]

All good points by noyb!

Personally I saw all these IRS headaches (including the downturn in offshore banking capabilities) coming long time ago and 9/11 managed to speed things up. If it is small money, then leave it all for what it is; do not bet outside the EU. If it is big money, leave Sweden (for a while). The next headache though is that even if you do leave Sweden, do not expect to get bank accounts opened that easily.