1. 09-27-16 10:34 AM #1
    rangerz2478
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    Has anyone noticed being consistently paid under market on bookmaker bitcoin payouts?

    Edit by SBR Staff: Hi guys,

    BookMaker appreciates the feedback on the bitcoin experience.

    They've shared with us the following

    BookMaker uses 3rd party processors for accepting and sending out bitcoin. It is possible the posters in this thread are seeing different prices online for numerous reasons including:


    • There is no "one price" of bitcoin: If ours appears higher than others , that slightly benefits you when you deposit (meaning when you send us $1000, you get more credit in your account per bitcoin), and slightly disadvantages you when you withdraw (meaning when we send you $1000, you get less bitcoin), but overall this should be a wash.
    • Time: BookMaker gets the most recent bitcoin price the moment we send out bitcoin. By the time you see this hit your wallet, there could be a change in price, even if that time is only 1 minute.
    • Spreads: When you see a website display a bitcoin price, 99 times out of 100, they are displaying what's called the "last price," or the last price that someone paid. Due to the affect spreads and market depths have on pricing, the next person who wants to buy bitcoin will likely get a higher price than the last price, or the next seller will get a lower price (this is how the market sets the price).


    We use a payment processor to transfer to and from our customers and they charge a small (less than 1%) spread into the price to cover their costs. That being said, Bookmaker want to get our customers the best possible value and we are constantly seeking the best bitcoin processors that are reliable, fast and have reasonable fees.

    I appreciate SBR and your members for bringing it up! We will work hard to improve our bitcoin experience at BookMaker continuously!

    The player's full inquiry is available below.

    ________________________________________ ________


    First off let me say I understand on bitcoin payouts the amount you get is not always exact to the amount you request due to many reasons including differences in spot prices, etc. But I'd say on my last 10 bitcoin payouts I have consistently received about 1% less on every payout. If I request 20k, I get around 19.8. If I request 10k, I get around 9.9. This morning I received my payout in 1.5 hours after requesting it which was very impressive, but requested 10k and received $9935 (value at time of transaction) If this was a 1 time thing it's no big deal but whenever I get a bookmaker payout, they seem to send a rate that is not available at any current bitcoin exchange. I use tradeblock to verify current prices across all major markets.

    I have done many bitcoin payouts across many sites and most sites its a couple bucks off here and there. (5k gets $4980, $5005, etc) but for whatever reason, bookmaker has been consistently lower every single time. And for the record I go by the "value at time of transaction" on blockchain, not the amount I see when I happen to check the transaction.

    Has anyone else had a similar experience with bookmaker on bitcoin payouts? These may seem like small prices to pay but they add up and is a little frustrating when other sites don't seem to have these discrepancies.
    Last edited by SBR Forum; 09-28-16 at 05:43 PM. Reason: added response
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  2. 09-27-16 10:57 AM #2
    SBR Forum
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    Hi rangerz,

    We would need your account ID to be able to ask Bookmaker to take a look at this, please write in.
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  3. 09-27-16 11:21 AM #3
    Crusherrr
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    Any amount I lose on Bookmaker or other Bitcoin withdrawals I get back when I transfer to Circle. The rate they use is obviously a lower amount than Blockchain uses so therefore you're going to keep getting paid less because their rate is less. Bitcoin doesn't have a set amount that it is worth across the board.
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  4. 09-27-16 11:42 AM #4
    futbolmundial
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    Its a known fact that books will convert your btc payment using the worst price available. This is how they earn off your payouts. I know some will come and say that there's no proof of this but after using btc on these sites for the past 3 year I can confirm this to be true. It's unfortunate but that's the price you pay when doing business with offshores via btc.
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  5. 09-27-16 12:09 PM #5
    Crusherrr
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    Quote Originally Posted by futbolmundial View Post
    Its a known fact that books will convert your btc payment using the worst price available. This is how they earn off your payouts. I know some will come and say that there's no proof of this but after using btc on these sites for the past 3 year I can confirm this to be true. It's unfortunate but that's the price you pay when doing business with offshores via btc.
    Yeah basically. Price we pay for getting paid quickly and I don't really mind it either.
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  6. 09-27-16 01:09 PM #6
    evo34
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    Just tried, but BM's 2-factor verification code (sent via voice call) is totally garbled every time. Voice is crystal clear until she speaks the code, which sounds like gibberish.
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  7. 09-27-16 05:39 PM #7
    Legions36
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    This isn't just bookmaker that does this and it doesn't even stop there. They seem to not give enough on deposits and not enough when getting paid out. How can they go by a set price from their exchange, then give you less on deposit and also less on withdrawals, if it was valid you would see it either on a deposit or withdrawal but this seems to be happening for both sides? Glad others here see whats happening cause I just don't get that they are allowed to do this, then the whole excuse they give when you ask them why you were shorted at some point is "Bitcoins price changes", like I don't know this.
    Points Awarded:

    futbolmundial gave Legions36 1 Betpoint(s) for this post.

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  8. 09-27-16 06:27 PM #8
    Wohlford
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    5Dimes has always been perfectly fair with me on BTC rates for withdrawals.

    Heritage always seems to skim a few % points.
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  9. 09-27-16 07:17 PM #9
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBR Forum View Post
    Hi rangerz,

    We would need your account ID to be able to ask Bookmaker to take a look at this, please write in.
    Will do, thanks sbrforum.
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  10. 09-27-16 07:20 PM #10
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusherrr View Post
    Any amount I lose on Bookmaker or other Bitcoin withdrawals I get back when I transfer to Circle. The rate they use is obviously a lower amount than Blockchain uses so therefore you're going to keep getting paid less because their rate is less. Bitcoin doesn't have a set amount that it is worth across the board.
    I'm well aware of that and explained exactly that in my original post. The price blockchain uses is the bitstamp rate, and those who know the difference between the top exchanges know bitstamp is almost always the LOWEST rate out there. I use tradeblock to check the current rates across all exchanges, see for yourself:

    https://tradeblock.com/markets/bfnx/xbt-usd/1h/

    (at the time this was posted, bitstamp was 603 while most were 605 but many times the spread is even larger)

    As of the moment I posted this, bitstamp has the lowest rate available. (most times it's $2-$5 less than the other big exchanges bitfinex and coinbase.) So if bitstamp is widely regarded as the lowest rate exchange, and blockchain uses the bitstamp rate, bookmaker are using rates that aren't even out there anywhere. And this is something a bookmaker representative agreed with me at one point when we discussed the rate on a previous payout and he couldn't figure out where they possibly got that rate from.

    THAT is the problem here.
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  11. 09-27-16 07:27 PM #11
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legions36 View Post
    This isn't just bookmaker that does this and it doesn't even stop there. They seem to not give enough on deposits and not enough when getting paid out. How can they go by a set price from their exchange, then give you less on deposit and also less on withdrawals, if it was valid you would see it either on a deposit or withdrawal but this seems to be happening for both sides? Glad others here see whats happening cause I just don't get that they are allowed to do this, then the whole excuse they give when you ask them why you were shorted at some point is "Bitcoins price changes", like I don't know this.
    I have received bitcoin payouts from about 7 books other than bookmaker, and bookmaker is the only one who consistently pays well under market price. On other sites, you win some, you lose some. (mostly lose) but it's usually a fraction of 1% and I accept it. But on bookmaker, it's CONSISTENTLY 1% worse than the lowest rate out there.
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  12. 09-27-16 07:35 PM #12
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerz2478 View Post

    I have received bitcoin payouts from about 7 books other than bookmaker, and bookmaker is the only one who consistently pays well under market price. On other sites, you win some, you lose some. (mostly lose) but it's usually a fraction of 1% and I accept it. But on bookmaker, it's CONSISTENTLY 1% worse than the lowest rate out there.
    It's been explained, and even demonstrated, for Legions how he is wrong but he just won't accept it.



    Do you find that Bookmaker also credits you more per bitcoin when depositing than other books?
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  13. 09-27-16 08:01 PM #13
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    It's been explained, and even demonstrated, for Legions how he is wrong but he just won't accept it.



    Do you find that Bookmaker also credits you more per bitcoin when depositing than other books?
    I only did a few deposits with bookmaker but it definitely was on the lower end. ($5000 on blockchain/bitstamp would get less every time.) But I didn't have a big enough sample size on deposits to notice how consistent it was.
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  14. 09-27-16 08:20 PM #14
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerz2478 View Post
    I only did a few deposits with bookmaker but it definitely was on the lower end. ($5000 on blockchain/bitstamp would get less every time.) But I didn't have a big enough sample size on deposits to notice how consistent it was.


    Hopefully SBR can get a full explanation of how they calculate it. Would be disappointing if they really are lower than market average on both ends.
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  15. 09-27-16 08:53 PM #15
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post


    Hopefully SBR can get a full explanation of how they calculate it. Would be disappointing if they really are lower than market average on both ends.
    I really don't want to make too big of a fuss on the way they handle deposits because it was less, but not drastic. It's the payout side that's been really frustrating but I'm all ears to both sides.

    Thanks Opti, appreciate it.
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  16. 09-27-16 09:16 PM #16
    Optional
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerz2478 View Post

    I really don't want to make too big of a fuss on the way they handle deposits because it was less, but not drastic. It's the payout side that's been really frustrating but I'm all ears to both sides.

    Thanks Opti, appreciate it.
    No book is going to have the best rate on both sides but as long as they are consistent in using the same standard for both I think that's fair.

    And I'm 'pretty sure' Bookmaker will be.
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  17. 09-27-16 09:36 PM #17
    raiders72001
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    I think that Bookmaker uses Bitstamp, not 100% sure. The prices are different at different exchanges.

    http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

    Bitstamp's price is low compared to other exchanges.
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  18. 09-27-16 09:39 PM #18
    raiders72001
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    [COLOR=#A4F5A2 !important]▲[/COLOR]BRL LocalBitcoinslocalbtcBRL 219410 min ago 2024.91169.09 8.35% 446.24903,604.02 BRL 1787.252958.58 2076.65 2049.06 2083.92110.08 5.28% 33.5869,986.91 BRL 1961.32500
    [COLOR=#A4F5A2 !important]▲[/COLOR]EUR BitBaybitbayEUR 5651 hr, 45 min ago 565.17-0.17 -0.03% 390.09220,467.49 EUR 495.12743.99 548 579 560.014.99 0.89% 177.0499,146.61 EUR 547570
    [COLOR=#FF615D !important]▼[/COLOR]ARS LocalBitcoinslocalbtcARS 9590.7916 min ago 9025.04565.75 6.27% 305.362,755,869.65 ARS 8200.211000 10146.71 9950.53 9721.77-130.98 -1.35% 11.88115,503.40 ARS 9433.9610526.32
    [COLOR=#FF615D !important]▼[/COLOR]ILS Bit2Cbit2cILS 23034 hrs, 7 min ago 2314.75-11.75 -0.51% 280.83650,056.28 ILS 20022450 2303 2330 2350.51-47.51 -2.02% 2.135,010.06 ILS 23032368
    [COLOR=#FF615D !important]▼[/COLOR]PLN LocalBitcoinslocalbtcPLN 2249.4410 hrs, 15 min ago 2283.23-33.79 -1.48% 162.56371,165.78 PLN 2057.143384.67 2268.3 2325.95 2270.76-21.32 -0.94% 10.3423,479.63 PLN 2249.442390.91
    [COLOR=#A4F5A2 !important]▲[/COLOR]CHF LocalBitcoinslocalbtcCHF 967.7410 hrs, 7 min ago 600.46367.28 61.17% 140.7784,525.82 CHF 518.381063.83 732.4 605.66 608.18359.56 59.12% 6.113,717.23 CHF 566.6967.74
    [COLOR=#FF615D !important]▼[/COLOR]CZK LocalBitcoinslocalbtcCZK 14038.476 hrs, 9 min ago 14459.67-421.20 -2.91% 129.721,875,702.94 CZK 13157.8922927.69 14344.49 14879.95 14372.80-334.33 -2.33% 2.5636,767.05 CZK 13982.315000
    [COLOR=#FF615D !important]▼[/COLOR]SGD LocalBitcoinslocalbtcSGD 800.911 hrs, 37 min ago 827.88-26.98 -3.26% 128.08106,032.35 SGD 747.24993.77 823.58 848.29 843.28-42.38 -5.03% 0.69583.38 SGD 800.9984.33
    [COLOR=#FF615D !important]▼[/COLOR]SGD FYB-SGfybsgSGD 82011 hrs, 47 min ago 821.85-1.85 -0.23% 93.4076,760.79 SGD 778.01850 820 829.99 825.67-5.67 -0.69% 2.942,424.37 SGD 820833.87
    [COLOR=#A4F5A2 !important]▲[/COLOR]DKK LocalBitcoinslocalbtcDKK 4494.385 hrs, 29 min ago 4047.07447.31 11.05% 45.72185,043.36 DKK 3359.054807.69 4000.53 4140.54 4289.55204.83 4.78% 0.07320.00 DKK 4261.84494.38
    [COLOR=#A4F5A2 !important]▲[/COLOR]SEK FYB-SEfybseSEK 5299.7115 hrs, 16 min ago 5164.06135.65 2.63% 32.28166,685.68 SEK 4748.75450 5168.45 5299.94 5299.560.15 0.00% 0.482,543.79 SEK 5170.885300
    USD Camp BXcbxUSD 6002 days, 23 hrs ago 561.1038.90 6.93% 26.2414,723.69 USD 530631.24 649 650 — 0.000.00 USD ——
    [COLOR=#FF615D !important]▼[/COLOR]USD BitBaybitbayUSD 62012 hrs, 22 min ago 662.99-42.99 -6.48% 24.6416,339.27 USD 522.01998 619.01 640 622.77-2.77 -0.45% 2.281,417.21 USD 620628
    NZD bitNZbitnzNZD 7751 day, 18 hrs ago 792.05-17.05 -2.15% 22.3217,680.85 NZD 751.002826.99999999 775.00016629 808.966 — 0.000.00 NZD ——
    [COLOR=#FF615D !important]▼[/COLOR]EUR hitbtchitbtcEUR 54512 hrs, 17 min ago 540.554.45 0.82% 17.839,638.01 EUR 502.8560 550.01 560 553.51-8.51 -1.54% 0.77426.20 EUR 545560
    ILS LocalBitcoinslocalbtcILS 2423.651 day, 7 hrs ago 2427.89-4.24 -0.18% 2.225,401.09 ILS 2173.913234.42 2285.06 2534.89 — 0.00
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  19. 09-27-16 10:15 PM #19
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by raiders72001 View Post
    I think that Bookmaker uses Bitstamp, not 100% sure. The prices are different at different exchanges.

    http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

    Bitstamp's price is low compared to other exchanges.
    I know for a fact it's not bitstamp. Because I go by the "value at time of transaction" on blockchain to get the numbers I am referring to and THOSE are the ones that are 1% off every single time.
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  20. 09-27-16 10:16 PM #20
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by raiders72001 View Post
    I think that Bookmaker uses Bitstamp, not 100% sure. The prices are different at different exchanges.

    http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

    Bitstamp's price is low compared to other exchanges.
    And your point about bitstamp being low I have said multiple times in this thread. The rate they are sending is 1% lower than bitstamp, the lowest exchange 90% of the time. Hence the problem.
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  21. 09-27-16 10:17 PM #21
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    No book is going to have the best rate on both sides but as long as they are consistent in using the same standard for both I think that's fair.

    And I'm 'pretty sure' Bookmaker will be.
    Agreed, but from my 3 deposits, and last 10 withdrawals, the "value at time of transaction" was a loss for me on all of them. So by that standard, it's not fair on each side.
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  22. 09-27-16 10:26 PM #22
    Legions36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optional View Post
    It's been explained, and even demonstrated, for Legions how he is wrong but he just won't accept it.



    Do you find that Bookmaker also credits you more per bitcoin when depositing than other books?
    Ok I'm wrong i only use bitcoin, let me see, pretty much all the damn time, by let's see pretty much every damn book that let's me use it but I don't know the difference when I'm getting $ shaved off the top. And nothing was proven before except incorrect #'s not sure where u I came up with. Don't think I forgot your crap before, I just don't have the time to keep going with u.
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  23. 09-27-16 10:30 PM #23
    Legions36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerz2478 View Post
    I have received bitcoin payouts from about 7 books other than bookmaker, and bookmaker is the only one who consistently pays well under market price. On other sites, you win some, you lose some. (mostly lose) but it's usually a fraction of 1% and I accept it. But on bookmaker, it's CONSISTENTLY 1% worse than the lowest rate out there.
    I'm surprised I haven't noticed a difference a lot of times at betonline, they pull this crap too. I just don't have the time to complain about $20 here and there. It takes an hour on chat or phone and it's an annoying process.
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  24. 09-27-16 10:48 PM #24
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legions36 View Post
    I'm surprised I haven't noticed a difference a lot of times at betonline, they pull this crap too. I just don't have the time to complain about $20 here and there. It takes an hour on chat or phone and it's an annoying process.
    I have done 3 or 4 from betonline, all for the 5k max and I received $4980-$4985 range all 3 times. So by comparison, betonline is 1/3 of 1% and is more reasonable to what we should expect.
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  25. 09-27-16 11:00 PM #25
    TheMoneyShot
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    Thanks for these posts rangerz2478

    I was wondering when one of these books would start ripping us on these Bitcoin PO's.
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  26. 09-27-16 11:43 PM #26
    raiders72001
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    Quote Originally Posted by rangerz2478 View Post
    I know for a fact it's not bitstamp. Because I go by the "value at time of transaction" on blockchain to get the numbers I am referring to and THOSE are the ones that are 1% off every single time.
    What you see on blockchain.info (value at time of transaction) is different than the price at Bitstamp. Post the time of when the transaction was initiated and we can match it to the prices at different exchanges.

    I could be wrong but I thought they were using the bid price at Bitstamp. I hope that they aren't taking more. It's unethical if they aren't notifying us of a charge somewhere on their site.

    This price has also been used by books https://bitcoinaverage.com/en/bitcoin-price/btc-to-usd
    Last edited by raiders72001; 09-27-16 at 11:55 PM.
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  27. 09-28-16 12:03 AM #27
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by raiders72001 View Post
    What you see on blockchain.info (value at time of transaction) is different than the price at Bitstamp. Post the time of when the transaction was initiated and we can match it to the prices at different exchanges.

    I could be wrong but I thought they were using the bid price at Bitstamp. I hope that they aren't taking more. It's unethical if they aren't notifying us of a charge somewhere on their site.

    This price has also been used by books https://bitcoinaverage.com/en/bitcoin-price/btc-to-usd
    Post the time of when the transaction was initiated and we can match it to the prices at different exchanges.

    Received Time 2016-09-27 14:40:14
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  28. 09-28-16 12:05 AM #28
    rangerz2478
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    16.46839988 btc
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  29. 09-28-16 05:33 PM #29
    SBR Forum
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    Hi guys,

    BookMaker appreciates the feedback on the bitcoin experience.

    They've shared with us the following:

    BookMaker uses 3rd party processors for accepting and sending out bitcoin. It is possible the posters in this thread are seeing different prices online for numerous reasons including:

    • There is no "one price" of bitcoin: If ours appears higher than others , that slightly benefits you when you deposit (meaning when you send us $1000, you get more credit in your account per bitcoin), and slightly disadvantages you when you withdraw (meaning when we send you $1000, you get less bitcoin), but overall this should be a wash.
    • Time: BookMaker gets the most recent bitcoin price the moment we send out bitcoin. By the time you see this hit your wallet, there could be a change in price, even if that time is only 1 minute.
    • Spreads: When you see a website display a bitcoin price, 99 times out of 100, they are displaying what's called the "last price," or the last price that someone paid. Due to the affect spreads and market depths have on pricing, the next person who wants to buy bitcoin will likely get a higher price than the last price, or the next seller will get a lower price (this is how the market sets the price).

    We use a payment processor to transfer to and from our customers and they charge a small (less than 1%) spread into the price to cover their costs. That being said, Bookmaker want to get our customers the best possible value and we are constantly seeking the best bitcoin processors that are reliable, fast and have reasonable fees.

    I appreciate SBR and your members for bringing it up! We will work hard to improve our bitcoin experience at BookMaker continuously!
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  30. 09-28-16 06:19 PM #30
    rangerz2478
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    We use a payment processor to transfer to and from our customers and they charge a small (less than 1%) spread into the price to cover their costs.


    Well, I appreciate them disclosing this but the fact remains they are the only site out of the 7+ I've used that consistently gives you less on deposits and withdrawals. So it's simply not true that you get MORE on deposits because it seems like that 1% spread is paid on both deposits and withdrawals. Also, it's understood among everyone in this thread that there is not "one price of bitcoin" but I have mentioned multiple times how they are sending a worse rate than the worst possible price out there. If they were simply sending the worst price than I probably would never have brought this up. But 1% less than the worst rate is the issue.

    I absolutely take them at their word that the 1% I have been bringing up seems like it goes to their processor but why are all other sites able to send the funds without the apparent 1% spread? Their feedback is appreciated and I hope they can find a processor that other sites are using to send closer to the exact amount.
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  31. 09-28-16 06:25 PM #31
    evo34
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    The spread is nowhere near 2% wide in any decent exchange, so BM is either getting screwed by their processor, or, much more likely, they are pocketing nearly 1% off each payout. Either way, it's total BS if it's anywhere near 1% on average. Can someone confirm rangerz' experience?
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  32. 09-28-16 06:41 PM #32
    evo34
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    I think, as part of SBR's sportsbook evaluation process, they should create test accounts and assess exactly how much each book is charging (on average) for a BTC deposit and withdrawal. Without such data, it's open season for books to quietly take as much as they think they can get away with. Threads like this will help, but not nearly as much as publishing thorough test results.
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  33. 09-28-16 06:46 PM #33
    rangerz2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by evo34 View Post
    The spread is nowhere near 2% wide in any decent exchange, so BM is either getting screwed by their processor, or, much more likely, they are pocketing nearly 1% off each payout. Either way, it's total BS if it's anywhere near 1% on average. Can someone confirm rangerz' experience?
    I don't think they are pocketing the 1% and do believe it is processor related but whatever it is should be improved. As I said, I can probably show around 10 of these and they are incredibly consistent on the 1% ballpark so what they said about the spread makes complete sense.

    I too would be curious to hear others experiences who have gotten 10k+ from bm?
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  34. 09-28-16 07:02 PM #34
    evo34
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    Oh, I believe you. Just curious if it's related to the amt requested, or even specific to an account, vs. a flat 1% fee quietly being applied to all accounts.

    Assuming the latter, either one of two things is happening:

    1) All books besides BM are eating ~1% on every deposit and payout.
    2) BM is profiting ~1% on every payout.

    I guess the third option is that BM is the only book who picked a processor that charges 1% more than any other processor -- but I'm not sure that's plausible.
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  35. 09-28-16 07:39 PM #35
    luctens
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    It really is stupid when people are so het up with 1% coming off their money for deposits and withdrawals, but the vast majority of the sort of players that would moan about this sort of thing can't be bothered to try and improve their actual betting, and putting some proper effort in to actually improve your betting will dramatically improve your betting returns more than any 1% here or there when you make a deposit or withdrawal.

    So the message is, if you're so obsessed with getting the absolute best return on your money, look closer to home to the actual bets you are making, as that is where you will have the chance to make by far the most dramatic improvement to your bankroll.
    Last edited by luctens; 09-28-16 at 07:44 PM.
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