[ElCartofor]

Please let me know what you understand from the following rules... if I place a Total Odd/Even bet on AHL, how will it be settled? At the end of the Regulation Time score, or at the score after OverTime/ShootOuts?

Here are the Ice Hockey rules:

All games must start on the scheduled date (local stadium time) for bets to have action. If a match venue is changed, bets already placed will stand providing the home team is still designated as such. If the home and away team for a listed match are reversed, then bets placed based on the original listing will be void.

There must be 5 minutes or less of scheduled game time left for bets to have action, unless the specific market outcome is already determined.

In 2-Way markets Push rules apply unless otherwise stated below. Stakes on single bets are returned, and in multiples/parlays the selection is treated as a non-runner.

NHL/NCAAH/AHL - All Markets Pre-Game and In-Play
All bets include overtime/shootouts unless otherwise stated. In the event of a game being decided by a penalty shootout then one goal will be added to the winning team's score and the game total.

Asian Handicap / Asian Goal Line, are settled on the score at the end of regulation time.

Puck Line (3 way), Game Total (3 way), Double Chance (3 way), Draw No Bet, Money Line (3 way), Team Totals (3 way) are settled on the score at the end of regulation time.

Race markets (2,3,4,5), are settled on the score at the end of regulation time.

Total/Team Goals Exactly markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time.

Last Team to Score, is settled at the end of regulation time.

3-Way markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time, unless specifically stated otherwise.

When Will Game End - 3-Way market that includes overtime/shootouts.

Game Totals Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even.

Team Totals Odd or Even - If your team doesn't score bets will be settled as even.

Period Betting - The relevant period must be completed for bets to have action, unless the specific market outcome is already determined. The 3rd period excludes overtime.

Highest Scoring Period Pre-Game - Excludes overtime, if 2 or more periods have the same score, dead-heat rules will apply.

Highest Scoring Period In-Play - Excludes overtime, if 2 or more periods have the same score Tie will be settled as the winner.

Team Scoring First Wins Game - The selected team to score first and win (includes overtime/shootout).

Next Goal Scored - Excludes overtime/shootout (regulation time only).

Who Will Win Most Periods - Excludes overtime/shootout (Tie is an option).

Total/Home and Away Goals Scored - Excludes overtime/shootout.

10 Minute Markets In-Play - The designated 10 minute match duration e.g. 31-40 minutes must be completed for bets to have action, unless the specific market outcome is already determined. For settlement purposes the 51-60 minute duration will not include overtime if played.

For settlement purposes the following website and box score details will be used to determine settlement times:
www.nhl.com
To Score Last in Regulation - Excludes overtime/shootout.

Lowest/Highest Scoring Team - In the event of a tie the team with most shots will be deemed the winner. If still tied dead-heat rules apply.

Grand Salami - The Grand Salami quotes an estimated number of goals to be scored in a specified number of that day's games. Lines are offered for the actual score to be over or under this quote. Push rules apply. For bets to have action all relevant games must complete at least 55 minutes of play otherwise bets will be void.

Homes/Away - For bets to have action all relevant games must complete at least 55 minutes of play otherwise bets will be void.

All Competitions (excluding NHL/NCAAH/AHL) - All Markets Pre-Game and In-Play
Unless otherwise stated all bets will be settled based on the score at the end of regulation time and excluding overtime if played.

To Win Match (including overtime/shootout)/To Lift Trophy/To Qualify - Include overtime/shootout.

When Will Game End - 3-Way market that includes overtime/shootouts.

Penalty Shootout Winner/Penalty Shootout Correct Score - settlement based on shootout result.

Game Totals, Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even.

Team Totals, Odd or Even - If your team doesn't score bets will be settled as even.

Period Betting - The relevant period must be completed for bets to have action, unless the specific market outcome is already determined. The 3rd period excludes overtime.

Highest Scoring Period Pre-Game - Excludes overtime, if 2 or more periods have the same score, dead-heat rules will apply.

Time of 1st Score - 1st period - If there is no score in the first Period, then bets will be settled as ‘after’.

Highest Scoring Period In-Play - Excludes overtime, if 2 or more periods have the same score Tie will be settled as the Winner.

10 Minute Markets In-Play - The designated 10 minute match duration e.g. 31-40 minutes must be completed for bets to have action, unless the specific market outcome is already determined. For settlement purposes the 51-60 minute duration will not include overtime if played.

Lowest/Highest Scoring Team - In the event of a tie the team with most shots will be deemed the winner. If still tied Dead-heat rules apply.

Player Match-Ups/Performances/Scorecasts
Relevant players must be dressed and see ice-time for bets to have action.

Player Points Match-Ups - Player points accrued in a game are the combined sum of goals plus assists. Push rules apply.

Tournament Betting Including IIHF World Championships/Olympic Games
Settlement of match-up bets will be based on which team progresses further in the tournament. If both teams are eliminated in the same stage all bets will be void apart from the semi-finals where the bronze medal match will count for final positions.

To Be Relegated - Two teams will be relegated from IIHF World Championships and bets will be settled as such.
Top Tournament / Team Goalscorer - Player who scores most goals during the competition will be deemed the winner. All-in, play or not. Dead-heat rules apply.
To Qualify From Group - Team to progress to Qualifying Round from Preliminary Round will be deemed winner.

All other tournament markets will be subject to NHL rules.

Futures
Regular Season Points/Match-Ups - Team must complete at least 80 regular season games for bets to have action unless the remaining games during the course of the season do not affect the result.


To Win Conference - The team that progresses to the Stanley Cup Final will be deemed the winner.

Outright/Conference/Divisional Betting
All bets stand regardless of team relocation, team name change or season length.

Series Betting
Bets are void if the statutory number of games (according to the respective governing organisations) are not completed or are changed.

NHL Top Regular Season Points Scorer (Goals + Assists)
Only goals and assists scored in the regular season, within the quoted league are counted for this market, irrespective of the team (within that league) for which they are scored. The team quoted alongside the player is for reference only. Market will be settled as per NHL.com official stats. All-in, run or not. Dead-heat rules apply.

[allin1]

for NHL/AHL/NCAAH it says: "All bets include overtime/shootouts unless otherwise stated."

so when you place your bets if it doesn't say "regular time only" then it includes overtime/shootouts

for All Competitions excluding NHL/NCAAH/AHL it says: "Unless otherwise stated all bets will be settled based on the score at the end of regulation time and excluding overtime if played. "

In this case, when you place your bets if it doesn't say "including overtime" then it is regular time only

[ElCartofor]

Thank you for taking the time to reply allin1.

In my logic, those Hockey terms are divided in 2 sections: "NHL/NCAAH/AHL" and "All other competitions".

In the "NHL/NCAAH/AHL" section, there is the 1st statement that says: "All bets include overtime/shootouts unless otherwise stated. In the event of a game being decided by a penalty shootout then one goal will be added to the winning team's score and the game total."

The 5th statement in the same section says: "Total/Team Goals Exactly markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time." - this in my logic is the "otherwise stated" from the 1st statement of the NHL/NCAAH/AHL sectin.

One could argue that the 5th statement is not part of the "NHL/NCAAH/AHL" section, but if so, then why is that even in the terms?

If you read the terms closley you can see that after the 1st statement in the "NHL/NCAAH/AHL - All Markets Pre-Game and In-Play" section, there are some more terms that say witch markets are settled diffrent. Then, in the other section, "All Competitions (excluding NHL/NCAAH/AHL) - All Markets Pre-Game and In-Play", after the 1st statement, again we can find a list of markets that are settled diffrent then the ones included in that 1st statement.

So I think that, according to those terms, a bet on a "Total" market should always be settled at the end of the Regulation Time, except if when you place a bet it says "including overtime and shootouts".

Do I have a serios gap in my logic? If so please let me know where I am wrong.

Please pardon my english. Thank you very much for taking the time to read and reply to my post.

[allin1]

In a way I think you are right. I missed that part, because I didn't read all the terms... but...

It is still strange though that they say "In the event of a game being decided by a penalty shootout then one goal will be added to the winning team's score and the game total." even though they say after that "Total/Team Goals Exactly markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time."

Also, could it be that the "total goals exactly markets" are different then the "total goals odd/even" markets?

[ElCartofor]

I belive this: "In the event of a game being decided by a penalty shootout then one goal will be added to the winning team's score and the game total." reffers to the fact that it dosen't matter how many goals are scored in the shootouts, the team that wins the shootouts, will only get 1 goal more in the match score. This rule, also applies to football(soccer) where in the event of a draw, after the overtime, there will be penalty shoots. It dosen't matter if the score at penalty shoots is 1-4 or 4-5, the team that wins the penalties will get +1 goal only in the match score.

You do have a point with the "Total/Team Goals Exactly", that expression can eather stand for "Total"/"Team Goals Exactly"(in witch case the "Total" stands for Total Odd/even markets to) or for "Total Goals Exactly"/"Team Goals Exactly" (in this case there is no Total Odd/Even). I now do belive that Bet365 ment "Total Goals Exactly/Team Goals Exactly", but I also think that the text of the rule should be changed.

Thank you allin1 for pointing that out to me, I really feel better now.

[allin1]

you can also try placing some 20 cents bets and see how they are settled

good luck

[ElCartofor]

I forgot that after this I wrote support again, check it out:

I write to 365:

Hello,


under the "NHL/NCAAH/AHL - All markets Pre-Game and In-Play" section of the Ice Hockey rules there are the following statements:


Statement 1. "All bets include overtime/shootouts unless otherwise stated. In the event of a game being decided by a penalty shootout then one goal is added to the winning team's score and the game total."


Statement 2. "Total/Team Goals Exactly markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time."


According to the given statements: how would a Total bet be settled? Would it be settled at the score at the end of the Regulation Time or at the score at the end of the Over Time/Shootouts?

Reply from 365:

Thank you for your email regarding you Ice Hockey query.

I can confirm that within our Help Section under the Sports Rules for Ice Hockey all bets do Include Overtime / shootouts. The important part of the rule is "Unless otherwise stated"


As the sports rule for Total/Team Goals Exactly Markets state that "Total/Team Goals Exactly markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time" This is the "otherwise stated"


As we have specifically stated that the markets are settled on the regulation time, this will overrule the previous ruling.

I apologise if this has caused any confusion and hope this clarifies how these markets will be settled.


I reply:

Thank you for your reply.

I have one more question, is the "Total Odd/Even" market included in the "Total/Team Goals Exactly" markets?

Bet 365 replys:

In response to this issue, odd or even game totals for NHL are settled in regulation time. The ruling is below and located within terms and conditions from the bottom of the homepage.


'Total/Team Goals Exactly markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time'


To note if the game ends 0-0 then even is the winning selection.


I reply:

Giving what you have just told me, I belive that two of my bets were settled incorrectly. Those two bets are:

POR Pirates @ WBS Penguins - EVEN > score at the end of Regulation Time: 3-3
LE Monsters @ TEX Stars EVEN> score at the end of Regulation Time: 4-4

Reply from 365:

I can confirm that the two bets in question have been settled correctly.


In the previous message you received on the 14/11/2012, you were informed that bets game totals odd/even in the AHL were settled on the score at the end of regulation time.


This is actually not the case, with AHL and NHL bets on game totals odd/even do include overtime.


This is covered in our rules below;


Game Totals Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even.


If the market was regulation time only, then the rule above would state this.




This is Bet365...

[killawookie]

What don't you understand?

EVERY Hockey bet "include overtime/shootouts unless otherwise stated"

The ONLY prop bet that is currently the exception is: Total/Team Goals Exactly

You chose Total Odd/Even.. a COMPLETELY different prop therefore it falls under "EVERY Hockey bet "include overtime/shootouts unless otherwise stated"

Simple.

If I would take a guess, you took this line late in the game thinking the better odds on the line was better than the Draw line.. and now you are mad it didn't work how you thought it was going to work.

[ElCartofor]

Lol killawookie, eather you didn't read all that I wrote, or you are having problems understanding that I had received conflicting emails from them, or you work for them.

Read again please:

365 Statement 1: "In response to this issue, odd or even game totals for NHL are settled in regulation time."
365 Statement 2: "NHL bets on game totals odd/even do include overtime."

What should I understand from those 2 statements?! Am I the one having a problem here? Or you?! Please enlighten me.

Further more, lets analise this for a moment:

" "Game Totals Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even."

If the market was regulation time only, then the rule above would state this." "

If the Total Odd/Even was to be settled at the score after penalties... IS THERE A POSIBILITY THAT AFTER THE PENALTIES OF A NHL HOCKEY GAME, THE SCORE TO BE 0-0 ?!

Since that posibility does not exist, then the rule "Game Totals Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even." must be reffering to the case when the score is 0-0 after regulation time. From that we can simply draw the conclusion that ODD/EVEN bets on NHL should be settled at the score after regulation time, ACCORDING TO BET365 OWN RULES!

But they do not even care about their own rules!

If I recall correctly, the bet was placed a day before the event.

Sorry for my bad english.

[benandjerry]

I dont think you have a case, their rules doesnt at any point state that the market will be decided at end of regulation. The only thing you have is one support agent who (probably) gave you a faulty response due to his own incompetence. Unless you have a cached version of their rules showing otherwise from the time your bet was made, I doubt you have a case. The rules say, wagers will be graded after OT/SO unless otherwise stated, and at no point do they explicitly state that the ODD/EVEN market will be graded based on regulation scores.

If the Total Odd/Even was to be settled at the score after penalties... IS THERE A POSIBILITY THAT AFTER THE PENALTIES OF A NHL HOCKEY GAME, THE SCORE TO BE 0-0 ?!

Since that posibility does not exist, then the rule "Game Totals Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even." must be reffering to the case when the score is 0-0 after regulation time. From that we can simply draw the conclusion that ODD/EVEN bets on NHL should be settled at the score after regulation time, ACCORDING TO BET365 OWN RULES!

I thought about this before I read you saying this. Its absolutely absurd to state the rules for an event that cannot occur, completely irrelevant and confusing and should be changed, in any other event than regulation obviously which leaves for a little window for a different interpretation I guess.

[Optional]

...

[Optional]

A hockey game can end 0-0... if it gets stopped after the 55min mark at that score.

[ElCartofor]

@ benandjerry

I got told by two 365 representatives that the Odd/Even market is a Total market, therefor this rule applies:

'Total/Team Goals Exactly markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time'

After I got those 2 answers, a 3rd representative of 365 argued that Odd/Even market is settled after overtime cause of this:

"AHL and NHL bets on game totals odd/even do include overtime.

This is covered in our rules below;

Game Totals Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even."

Now, I might have logic problem... but that rule only states that if the score will be 0-0, then the bet will be settled as even. That score can only happen if after 55 of play game is stopped(as optional mentioned) or after 60 minutes of play(both reffer to only the regulation time). This rule exists because the scientific community has split opinions on the matter of "zero" being even or odd or any of those, therefor, if the problem would be raised in a court of law, there would be room for interpretation. This rule only defines that 365 sees "zero" as an even number.

I do have prints with both my bets recepits and their rules. And I do belive that the "Total Odd/Even" market is a submarket of the "Total" market and therefor all bets on that market for AHL and NHL should be settled acording to the rule: "Total/Team Goals Exactly markets are settled on the score at the end of regulation time".

This is a matter of principle, not money... I take the time to read the sports rules so I know what I am betting on, but they decide to settle my bet as they wish.

If you talk to 3 representatives, all equal in rank and 2 of them tell you that the AHL and NHL Total markets are settled at the score after regulation time, and 1 of them tells you exactly the opposite... what should I belive? This is completly unacceptable, not to mention the the Gambling Commission clearly states that the rules of a bookie should be clear and in no way confusing.

[benandjerry]

I see no mention of 55 minutes being relevant to the grading of to any total markets except for grand salami (and home/away) at b365. Its not possible to say how they would treat a game being concluded after the 55:00 mark but before full time. Personally I think they should void them...

I still feel like your wagers should be graded as they have been judging by the rules they have in place, I think from a a neutral standpoint most will share that view, but its not conclusive, they should really make things more clear.

You definitely have a point that the rules are confusing.

Just the fact that their own employees interpret the rules differently proves that even further...

[ElCartofor]

Just an update.

Eventualy someone with a brain and the will of actualy understanding my point of view read the last email I have sent to them.

He concluded that the rule "Game Totals Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even." was misleading and paid my 2 bets as a "gesture of goodwill".

But, whats more important(for me at least), is that he assured me that he had forwarded this issue to the relevant department(I presume the Rules department).

When/if I will see the rules change, I will feel like I did something good, and thats whats important for me.

Thank you all for reading my posts and thank you ben for your relevant imput on the matter.

PS: Now I only have to resolve a similar problem with Coral - http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/sportsbooks-industry/2172468-coral-galacoral-company.html but they seem to refuse communications, so I think I will have to write to the Gibraltar Gambling Commission.

[Optional]

Just because they threw you a bone to get rid of you does not make you right.

There is nothing wrong with the rules. I suspect everyone that bets hockey there (including you) understand them.

One CS rep made a small error talking to you, and you made them pay for that honest error. You are a part of the reason some book's CS treat us all like the enemy.

Not surprised you have the same 'comprehension problems' at another book.

[ElCartofor]

@optional - eather you are an "opinion maker" for bookies that sponsor SBR, or you have some severe logic issues. Since I don't want to acuse you of willingly doing a bad thing, I will presume the second option...

Let's say that it can be interpreted whether the "Total Odd/Even" market is a submarket of "Total/Team Goals Exactly" or not and carry on.

I don't know how to analize this in US legal terms, but lets take a look at this fraze:

"Game Totals Odd or Even - If there is no score all bets will be settled as even."

Do you understand that the given fraze only has meaning if the given hockey game is to be settled at the score after regulation time, because a score of 0-0 can't happen after Shootouts ?!

1) Since that fraze is present in the Rules, therefor it must be applied.

2) It can never be applied if the Total Odd/Even market is to be settled after Overtime/Shootouts.

1) + 2) => 3) For that fraze to legaly stand and be applied, the fraze must reffer to the score after Regulation Time. Since the fraze reffers to the score after Regulation Time and it rules the "Total Odd/Even" market, and no other rules for that specifc market are listed, then the fraze states, along with it's primary meaning, that the "Total Odd/Even" market is to be settled at the score after Regulation Time.

Please understand, that what I have written in "Bold" has nothing to do with "my beliefs", it is logic deduction.

Can you understand that Optional, or should I try and make a drawing for you?

And just for the record, 2 CS rep told me that overtime/penalties are not included, not 1 as you stated in your previous post.(you should have known this if you read my posts)

My other problem, with the other book also got solved, because I got logic and proof on my side.

PS: when you show an Ace of Spades to people and ask them what card is that, most of them will reply that it is an Ace. Only some of them will say it's an Ace of Spades. If you are wondering what's this got to do with our topic, then you are the one that replys "Ace"...