Adjudication

[investigator]

Hello,
I have an incident that raises the question do online casinos cheat or target a player?

The general consensus on this forum is they all do. Given the chance it seems it's in their DNA to exploit an opportunity.
My case suggests if there was ever a time the target a player my experience was it.

The casino has ignored all my inquires but one. A customer service rep responded to my questions regarding the pay out percentages on a particular machine during a few specific time frames with a pat answer of no disparities.
When I explained that the game she investigated was one i played 8 hours later and that she was incorrect because she stated i played blackjack. I never played a single hand of blackjack over the 5 days of extensive play. I restated the game and time frame and asked for her to look telling her she will be shocked with the results.

Her lack of any reply makes me certain she looked and realized I was correct. All she had to do was respond with the no discrepancies answer but she didn't. She instead told on herself by the lack of response. When solving a problem you always look for something out of play or different. Further I sent two letters to the department head without a response.

It appears this case will be done through adjudication. It states if a case is filed that confidentiality should be maintained. Since I haven't filed can I have my case be presented here in a public forum? I am confident when all the facts are presented I will receive a favorable conclusion.

I feel that sportsbookreview would investigate fairly but my concerns are they may not request the information required or have the authority to do so. The casino has that data and with an opportunity to show they are creditable could provide the logs. This is a highly unusual situation that initially will appear as a standard you lost so get over it but that opinion will be turned upside down when i present my case.

I'm not a lawyer but I twice represented people and won large settlements. I will always remember what one highly coveted one told me regarding my leaking of info to the press. He said I'll get you disbarred you can't try cases in the public forum then hesitated and said that's right you aren't an attorney.

So please advise me regarding presenting my case in this forum.
Thank you

[Optional]

You are welcome to give your case here but 1) SBR does not generally get involved with casino related disputes and 2) I have no idea how going public might affect your rights.

[pologq]

type what happened here. we can definitely give our opinions like we have done for others. curious as to your story.

[PuffDaddy]

[investigator]

Full report this evening
thank you for your interest

[investigator]

pre adjudication review

***In advance I apologize for the lengthy post. I suggest you advance to the last section and only read this if you desire complete disclosure***

I’m not an attention whore in any way. I am a recently retired senior with a tiny fixedincome that has been greatly impacted by this and pray for a favorable outcome. I am hoping for everyone's object determinations regarding the incident and to receive a full or partial monetary recovery.
This all transpired over 5 days last week
On evening of Aug.10^th a made a minimum deposit at Betonline. I was fortunate to have a few initial wins allowing me to pick my moments and reach $1,000 dollar balance. I continued to experience success bouncing around certain slots, visiting the poker room occasionally and y balance grew to $2,000. At this time I learned of the 7 day withdraw restriction due to debit card deposit. A day later my balance grew to $4,500. Given this ammunition and the ability to plow through to lows I soon found my balance increasing. I experienced maybe 40 significant wins over $1,000 and never had an instance when I didn’t have a significant win to offset a low paying streak. Over the next couple days in anticipation of my withdrawal date I continued to play going as high as $14,000 and never below $9,500. Onthe day in question I had $11,200 in my account. I’m a math guy and have a sense for identifying patterns and was totally comfortablewith Betonline’s consistency, fair, and predictable results the past 4 days.
An incident on Friday Aug. 14^th changed all that. I called asking about the ACH option of withdrawing monies directly to my account. I didn’t need to provide account information but did when asked. He answered my question and I jokingly made a comment “if I don’t lose it back”. He didn’t comment with a good going or congratulations which would be normal behavior. I can’t describe it but everyone has had moment when there is a pause or a hmm that doesn’t fit. He asked if there was anything else and in unison no click or click no. I didn’t gamble immediately following that but did a short time later. Perhaps the agents are trained to see a chance to target someone or perhaps he saw a chance to get noticed for an advancement but having flown under the radar for the week I was suddenly identified.
A short time later I begin playing and was seeing play typical of the previous days until a half hour later. That time frame would be about right for an account that had been flagged to sound an alarm and the time to discuss and initiate an action. It wasn’t long before I could tell something was off. The game that left no question I was being manipulated is Totems Fortune. I witnessed countless spins yielding zero or very small results. I saw 30 near misses without a bonus which is over two times the allowable amount in my local jurisdiction. The first three bonus that I received with wagers up to$10 we’re in the range of $80 to $200. I tried every known action to change the cycle including betting the minimum constantly tapping,logging out of the game, the site and even my laptop. Upon my return the terrible results continued. Other games were also provided results not remotely similar than what I had seen the past 4 days.
I have character fault admittedly of becoming upset with poor results and desire to push through. The attempt to do this produced no wins of note after having seen
it happen dozens of times. Spins producing recovery of dollars from bad streaks.
Previously estimated to be 25 times compared to the questionable session Zero. 25 to 0

They did a study which attempted to prove if players could tell the difference in payouts on 2 machines. The majority couldn’t tell but they witnessed some with uncanny ability to do so. I am certain I am in that category. If provided the data on the machine I will have accurately claimed it was set at the most 40% and arguable as low as 25% during my period of play. I’m certain the lady I told to check the machine in question did and saw exactly what I estimated. When she shared those results I am certain they told her to cease all contact. Another case of someone telling on themselves.All she had to do was contact me and stated no discrepancies but the lack of reply even as a courtesy is telling.
Normally the loses could be written off as just a bad streak of spins except for one thing the extraordinary volume of my play. By playing up to 2000 spins we are capable of arriving at an accurate payoff percentage any particular machine. Anyone who tries to present the case of machine results totally reliant on a rng are liars or extremely dumb. Most casinos I have played in the past offer access to to a log which has recorded every individual slot machine spin. That availability would make my presentation a simple process but that isn't offered by Betonline. A reputable casino
would hopefully provide that information and failure another questionable response.
We would ask that those logs be provided in a half hour to assure their accuracy.
I know what you are thinking those logs could be in process of creation in anticipation
of providing them.


To summarize that negative $14,000 session I never received a spin with a rewardof $1,000 after having had 40 $1,000+ winners. The largest winning spin during this period was $600.

While normally easy to write off an event such as this to bad luck there is ample
data available to substantiate my claim
My volume of played equaled at least all the previous days combined.
This huge discrepancy based on an extraordinary amount of data available
can not be explained away by bad luck, streaks of other acts of god.
40 to <1 in spins over $1,000
25 to zero times significant win equaled out bad streak to
90% payout to 50% or less.

I am stopping for a brief period to allow assessment of info I provided so far. Sorry again for the length of post.
Will continue with other evidence by morning and potential amicable resolves.

[vampire assassin]

Everyone goes through streaks. You had a great one, then a bad one.

If they gave you the hold percentages for the games, what was the hold in the games you played? What was your total volume played? I don't know what the minimum deposit is, but was your overall net loss (I assume your initial deposit) more than your theoretical loss?

[DontTailMe]

Sounds like regression to the mean to me. It's great that you made it to $11k. You can't possibly expect that your profits will continue increasing on -EV casino games.

[investigator]

This can't be deemed a streak &amp; IF YOU READ ANYTHING READ THIS SECTION

The disparity of the results between the 4 days prior and the day in question cannot be deemed a streak. To confirm my claim I request betonline to provide logs of my play between Aug. 10 through the 15th.
They request I use sportsbookreview for adjudication but when contacted SRB they stated they normally don't handle casino claims. Does SBR have the ability or authority to request player logs or certification of machine payout percentages?

Betonline is an established online gaming center which maintains a reputable and popular sports book and poker site. These categories inherently are mostly transparent and thus operate in an ethical manner. The casino division which isn't required to disclose their inter workings is capable of unfair practices including deception, targeting and being in a word unfair. I suspect they are generally more honest than many online casinos but when presented an opportunity to recover over $10,000 from a player who started with a minimal investment they couldn't resist.

I am reluctant to suggest that they played a part in purposely causing my losses however these questions suggest there is high probability it occurred.
*All online casinos cheat, target or manipulate play for economic gain. Based on consensus of players and first hand confirmation from employees I befriended over the years that these actions routinely take place.
* Betonline's managing compliance overseer is the Panamanian Gaming Comm. which conducts no compliance checks and allows any deceptive or fraudulent actions to go without notice.
* The occurrence of the drastically different payout percentages following my call inquiry regarding payout
* The reply from them regarding my questions about suspect machines and the response which wasn't remotely close to my request and even stated she observed my play at blackjack. I never played a hand of blackjack during the week.
* They seized an opportunity that came to light to recover lost revenue
Failure to respond to any attempt of contact i have made to the casino and specifically Ricardo Arias, manager of client services.

If betonline is completely innocent of any attempt to purposely target me I am happy with that result but then need to question their responsibility to maintain the credibility of the slot machines they manage. A player while accepting there are streaks involved is entitled to a reasonable fair gaming experience. These results far exceed any expected parameters the casino should maintain and in failing to provide a fair experience should provide compensation to myself the targeted player.
* Number of significant winning spins over $1,000. 45 in previous 4 days compared to Zero on the day in question
* Amount of times a significant spin(s) overcame losses occurred during a non paying streak. Prior days a minimum of 25 times as opposed to zero times the day in question.
* estimated payout percentage of 90+% prior 4 days to estimated <50% day in question.

I maintain I am entitled to a gaming experience on day 5 which is similar to results I encountered the 4 previous days. I agree any gaming is subject to peaks and valleys but when I present evidence that the disparity is mathematically unfeasible something should protect the player. i had near certain expectation that the odds would shift during my play especially based on 25+ hours of gaming on the prior 4 days.

FINALLY I contest that upon receiving game logs and other documents SBR will represent me without bias, will confirm my claims and require betonline to render fair compensation. Betonline has put SBR in a very difficult position deeming them the sole authority to resolve claims against the casino. A position that subjects themselves at risk to maintain their credibility.

I propose an option for Betonline to show they are a great corporation with a strong moral compass that provides the gaming community the confidence to continue to play there. I suggest SBR approach Betonline and reach an agreement to fair recovery of some of my questionable losses. I authorize them to perform this action prior to an adjudication claim being filed.

Thank you

[investigator]

I appreciate your comments

I appreciate your comments and expect many will simply deem it a streak.

I claim when the disparity is so extreme, backed up by extensive play and available data and mathematically maybe 1 in 100,000,000,000,000 (a big number)a streak is removed as an option.

[moojoo]

You are degenerate and thats all. When you win 11k with little money then it was all ok,but now it is not. Im not saying casino is not rigged,but get a grip man. It all on you,you fuked it all up.

[PuffDaddy]

"I have character fault admittedly of becoming upset with poor results and desire to push through. The attempt to do this produced no wins of note after having seen"

ding ding ding ding

[Microphone]

I'm certain you knew this going in:

"Betonline's managing compliance overseer is the Panamanian Gaming Comm. which conducts no compliance checks and allows any deceptive or fraudulent actions to go without notice."

You've answered your own question. You raised the red flag. Your suspicions were correct.

[pologq]

i have been there. believe me. hot streaks sometimes lasting weeks playing off and on and getting up to $10K, $12K, even $15K once and then a cold streak happens and poof you are done extremely quickly, especially as you chase to get back winnings and bet more which is what I would always do.

you mention that the machine's payouts during the session after your contact with CS was not fair to gaming practices. what about when you were winning? it had to be above the normal payouts. it all balances out. trust me.

it sucks. i have been there. degeneracy 101 on my part.

not making fun, just saying this is when degeneracy takes over. life is good when you win but the system is rigged when you lose.

[Ruifgalmeida]

It's a casino game, sorry to say but you are not a mathematical guy, you are a fish, turning 1000 into 14000 is not normal you got lucky, turning 14000 into 0 is normal on any casino on the planet.
You shouldn't gamble, it's impossible to make any income o a casino slots , stop been a fool and delete this post.

[cashin81]

I mean if you suspected theres something wrong, you could have stopped playing.

bite your nose to spite your face. Is that right? I never really understood that saying.

[DontTailMe]

I appreciate your comments and expect many will simply deem it a streak.

I claim when the disparity is so extreme, backed up by extensive play and available data and mathematically maybe 1 in 100,000,000,000,000 (a big number)a streak is removed as an option.

Why do you believe that results cannot change on a dime? Randomness means anything can happen.

[DontTailMe]

I mean if you suspected theres something wrong, you could have stopped playing.

bite your nose to spite your face. Is that right? I never really understood that saying.

Isn't it "cut off your nose to spite your face"? That makes a lot more sense too.

[pologq]

I appreciate your comments and expect many will simply deem it a streak.

I claim when the disparity is so extreme, backed up by extensive play and available data and mathematically maybe 1 in 100,000,000,000,000 (a big number)a streak is removed as an option.

of course it is a streak. like how you won was a streak is how you lose is a streak. casino results change quickly, especially if you have been winning and now you feel the losing. it sucks but it is the risk you take.

[Barrakuda]

I appreciate your comments and expect many will simply deem it a streak.

I claim when the disparity is so extreme, backed up by extensive play and available data and mathematically maybe 1 in 100,000,000,000,000 (a big number)a streak is removed as an option.

Actually do the math if you have the skills. Saying it's a "big number" is not math.

[Colonist]

Sorry my friend but your story is customary in any casino anywhere in the world. Easy come, easy go. The unbelievably hot streaks are always acceptable and we don't question them but the unbelievably cold streaks demand an excuse or reason for it. Just find your way through this and you will get past it. Continuing to debate this is only going to lead nowhere and cause you more pain. Good luck.