BetPhoenix confiscates $5K Freeplay

[Thremp]

Villifying bonus hunting and steam chasing is stupid. My "steam" money spends the same as my stat arb money, prop bet money, and my bonus money.

Richard,

You're coming off as a massive toolbag. BTW to answer your questions. Vegas routinely hangs WA arbs. I'd wait in a line 5 people deep to get to a soft number that had been on the board the entire time. Then they took 5k in action on it and moved the number to something less gagtastic.

I can say 100% that no place has stolen money from me for betting all steam. You attempted to do what WagerWeb attempted to do to me. (Their issue was more egregious but the core issue remains.) You made a poor business decision in granting an advantage player a large bonus and soft lines that he then crushed. Now you wanna say he wasn't playing fair because you suck at your job. Boo ****ing hoo.

[Dark Horse]

Isn't this BP losing much more than they had bargained for against a sharper book, during the rollover phase? If they gave 50% bonus they asked begged for it.

[Casi]

Hey Thremp (and others), are you really that ignorant?
It is in the RULES of almost ALL sportsbooks that they can take back a bonus .
If they remove a freeplay that hasn´t been used yet, this is NO STEALING if the reason is valid.
And if the rules say bonuses are for recreational players, steam hunters DO NOT QUALIFY.

You guys have a lot to learn ssshhh, or maybe you just want as much sunshine on your arbing asses as you can get.

[tomcowley]

The hate for random people with a browser who are better at finding soft numbers at a bunch of books than the PAID EMPLOYEE is at managing the numbers at one book is really amazing.

[MartinBlank]

I have no pony in this race.

But what attracted me to SBR was the interaction and reporting done on the various books I was considering back in July. BigBoyDan answered every single pain/ass PM I sent him regarding books and the questions I had....the result was some great advice from the SBR community and I have had great experiences with all the SBR books I have played with (BetJam/Greek/5Dimes)---and most recently---add BetPhoenix to this list.

I have played with them December through this past weekend, and I have requested 3 payouts...and each time was paid within 24 hours.

I am not a paid shill for anyone...just a guy like many here who like to play and get paid. BetPhoenix has been very good to me.

[trixtrix]

It is in the RULES of almost ALL sportsbooks that they can take back a bonus .
I

really? can you provide us w/ some examples from a rated books (excluding bp and betonline of course) where the book retroactively confiscated a previously agreed-upon, contracted, and fulfilled bonus?

if not, then you should stop using hyperboles

[Casi]

Accounts identified or labeled with non-recreational play type or wager style are not eligible for bonuses and are subject to have bonuses revoked.
BetJamaica Management reserves the right to refuse, limit or revoke bonuses at anytime without prior notice.

Jamaica, you are welcome.

[Casi]

The hate for random people with a browser who are better at finding soft numbers at a bunch of books than the PAID EMPLOYEE is at managing the numbers at one book is really amazing.

Don´t make me laugh, if there is hate here than clearly vs. BP.
Soft numbers? That´s an other world than a line that just dropped by x points.

My 13 year old could prolly watch a line service/pinny/whatever and try to get a bet in beforea book moved. And again: it is ok to do this. It is baby attitude to come to a forum and whine about a revoked bonus as result thou. Grow up.

[trixtrix]

Accounts identified or labeled with non-recreational play type or wager style are not eligible for bonuses and are subject to have bonuses revoked.
BetJamaica Management reserves the right to refuse, limit or revoke bonuses at anytime without prior notice.

Jamaica, you are welcome.

you didn't answer my question: and can you show me a specific example of when bet jamaica has retroactively used this clause to confiscate a previously granted bonus?

you need reading comprehension classes.. (you're welcome)

[trixtrix]

Don´t make me laugh, if there is hate here than clearly vs. BP.

**then

you also need grammar training classes (you're welcome again)

[Casi]

Do you get horny by watching your grammar on a gambling forum? Seems you do, english is not even my mother language you hero.

[trixtrix]

neither is logic apparently..

[Casi]

Where is the difference between a specific example, and a written rule that makes it very possible it happened and we just don´t know? Arguing with you is like...bah whatever.

[tomcowley]

An A rating and a D rating? Seriously, you're completely talking out of your ass here. You have some experience with how some garbage book operates and think that their attitudes and procedures are industry standards. You have absolutely no idea how A-books (and even B-books and most C-books) act and how they treat players fairly. Even suggesting that betjam jacked a granted bonus for steam play is absurd. No way in hell that ever happened.

[Casi]

Jamaica would not be downgraded..why should they, just because of some greedy whiners?

[trixtrix]

Jamaica would not be downgraded..why should they, just because of some greedy whiners?

your cluelessness knows no bounds

[dwaechte]

As usual, put me on the side of the book on this one. I think Casi has done an excellent job explaining why BP's case, and I also commend Richard for coming and defending his position on an open forum. As arbitrary as the line between rec and pro is, I don't see how anyone can argue that playing solely steam plays is recreational. It's not. It is in BP's terms of service that they have the right to refuse or revoke bonuses to non recreational bettors. Therefore, they have every right to confiscate the bonus entirely, which they didn't even do in the end. Does it suck for the player? Sure. Do people have a right to be upset that a sponsored book is behaving like this? Sure. But don't act all ****ing shocked and apalled when it happens.

Personally, I like to read the rules of the books before I send them thousands of dollars. Apparently others feel differently.

[JaimeBP]

Bonus Confiscation

Let's keep it simple.

I am the one who removed the $5000 bonus from the account. You all know the reasoning behind this decision, and anyone trying to justify keeping a juicy bonus after being caught playing steam is simply wrong.
The customer asked why the free play had been removed. I told him about the steam. He didn't know what I was talking about. I confronted him, and then he admitted getting on 'some' of the moves. I told the customer that I would be willing to give him back half of the bonus, as I didn't feel he was entitled to receive a 50% free play, considering the kind of action he was giving us. He declined the offer. Then I asked this gentleman to give me 15 minutes to speak to the owner, to see how he wanted to handle it. He decided to come to this forum, after that there wasn't much we could do to help him.
Richard gave him his bonus back on the agreement that he would stay off the steam, to which he replied that "what if he happened to play one of the games that was moving?" I must acknowledge that he was always very polite and respectful; I appreciate that. However, if we let all these good customers come in and take advantage of our discount lines, along with high bonuses, and on top of it we let them get on all the steam, soon there would be no Bet Phoenix left for the rest of the players who enjoy playing with us. We will probably have to continue to deal with bonus hunters, scalpers, middlers, etc., but I hope this has set an example for those who think we'll just let them get away with all kinds of tricks.
I know I'm going to get a lot of heat from a whole bunch of guys, who seem not to have anything better to do than to let out their frustrations through this forum. I'll tell you up front "I will not be wasting my time" talking nonsense. So after answering a couple of questions I'll be out of here for good.
By the way, from everyone addressing this issue only Richard and I work for Bet Phoenix. Others who have backed our point of view are not on our payroll as a few suggested. They are just fair, honest individuals who share our way of doing bussiness. Good to know you are around, thank you.
Jaime, Bet Phoenix Supervisor

[tomcowley]

We suck at lines management, and instead of improving as a business, we're just going to rob the winners and keep the losers. I hope that this serves as a warning that if we don't like your action, we'll steal what was agreed upon at signup.

Jaime, Bet Phoenix Supervisor

FYP.

SBR, keeping this book as a B after that "mission statement" is a freaking joke. I don't care how many trillion dollars they have backing them, and how much of it has gone to you- if they don't intend to honor the terms of signups, they have no business being approved of here. They simply don't get it. It was obvious that they didn't get it when they jacked the bonus in the first place, but then they did the right thing- and now, even after all that shit hit the fan, they're coming on here claiming that they made the right decision initially, that the player was wrong, and that they will be acting that way in the future.

The book has come right out and told you that it intends to steal from players in the future- and that they intend to do it because they don't consider their business model to be profitable unless they rob winners. What more could you possibly need?

[trixtrix]

jaime, i'm not a steam chaser (anymore) and i don't really have a bone in this fight except to see that justice is served. but w/ a mission statement like that, where you implicitly threatened to take action RETROACTIVELY against an advantage player acct scares me (and i don't think i'm alone either), so suffice to say i don't see myself depositing there any time soon..

[Casi]

i don't see myself depositing there any time soon..

Iam sure he is very sad to hear this

[JaimeBP]

I will repeat myself for those who didn't understand: If you are planning to come in to play steam, just stay away from our bonuses. And if you want to take advantage of our bonuses, then stay away from the steam. Is it that hard to understand? And for Mr. Cowley, saying "hire me on the spot for risk management" I doubt there is a spot for you on this company.

[tomcowley]

Wow, that's classy. Posting a tongue-in-cheek comment out of context, and from a PM no less. Here's the entire PM I sent to Richard.. enjoy the egg on your face.

I want you guys to succeed- you actually look like you're trying to be a real book, taking decent bets and originating 2hs, etc. I'm sure I'm giving up some short-term value in telling you this, but..

1) You simply can't be antagonistic towards players who didn't cheat. ucbearcats, sure, but johnnyc, no. You put lines up, people bet them. That's the business. When you start taking stupid shots at players, like stealing freeplay, that just shows a scammer mentality, and people pick up on it. You can't steal people's money because you don't like them- well, you can, but you're headed for the BetED section instead of the BetCris section. From his account, and what I saw here, it looks like the owners of the book, and possibly you (I don't know what you do for the book), are antagonistic towards certain types of action. Why? What purpose does that serve? You're actually pissed off that somebody signed up for your book? Give me a break. You offer reasonably high limits, and the option of -105 or a good bonus. If you think that you're only going to get retard action with that, then seriously, I want some of the shit you guys are smoking. If you offer things attractive to sharps, which you do, sharps will come, and sharps will try to beat on you every way possible, which leads me to......

2) You guys are getting worked up over a STEAM CHASER? Seriously? I know you know what a delay is, since one of my friends is on one. Your lines management is actually pretty miserable, as far as tracking the market goes. You're pretty slow to respond to steam and you let numbers drift off all the time. If you guys pull your lines manager/risk manager's heads out of their asses, you should LOVE it when a steam chaser signs up. You should be able to identify his type of action pretty fast, throw him on a delay, and if he has no other talent, he's going to lose to you by the time he meets rollover. If he's not disciplined, he'll just get pissed off and go stone broke taking the bad numbers. If he can beat you without steam, then you can worry about him.

Yes, dealing with steam chasers requires 1) a lines manager who does a good job tracking the market, and 2) some type of risk management review to identify these guys quickly. Whoever should be doing these jobs, or should be paying to have these jobs done well, might not appreciate the extra work/expense, but tough shit. You can't expect people to pass up honest opportunities to make a buck (it's hard enough getting them to pass up dishonest ones), and you can't be pissed off when they don't. It's a total pipe dream. Get people who can do the job, get the job done, and look at these players as opportunities. That's the realistic view.

If your book is actually in so much danger of losing significant money to no-talent steam chasers that you need to steal from them, then OMFG, hire me on the spot for risk management.

Sadly, it looks like my joke was spot on- they really are in that much danger.

[trixtrix]

Iam sure he is very sad to hear this

he should be, i typically deposit 4 digits min and have a tendency to gamble on my opinions

ps: as always, you missed the pt, you always seemed to miss the pt so obv this did not come as a surprise. so let me make this clear to you: there are hundred of players like me, and we have friends/associates who also gamble, word of mouths of (mis)treatment travels fast. i was on betp's side in the scammer thread. now i'm on the player's side. what does that tell you about the job that betp is doing in convincing the players?

[JaimeBP]

I quoted the last sentence of your post. Something you did say. You instead twisted everything that I said around, to make me and our book look bad. I really don't understand what your intentions are. You don't have to work for us, you don't have to play with us. We don't need your help to solve any issue with any of our customers. As a matter of fact, if the player had been a little more patient, we would've solved the situation quite easily. Honestly, I don't like your attitude, I don't like what you stand for, and I don't like the way you've addressed this whole situation. See, I make decisions based on our rules, the players behavior, and what's fair for everyone. I really doubt you have anything to teach me or anyone in our crew on how to handle this player or any type of players. Good day Mr. Crowley, back to work.

[Casi]

It tells me iam getting bored of this now, there are also players in those threads who think BP did nothing wrong.

[trixtrix]

no there are book affiliates and people who associate w/ betp (you, richard, jaime..etc) who agrees w/ their stance

there are PLAYERS (me, tc, hh, justin etc) who disagrees w/ the stance

can you at least get one thing correct in your entire posting history?

ps: the longer we keep this thread alive, the more face/business betp stands to lose. another one of your well thought out plans i'm sure..

[Casi]

You are just an ass, nice job showing it to everyone ^^
And you are prolly a small fish compared to the amounts that i used to bet, i could care less about who you think needs those affliates peanuts.

[dealer wins]

Am I the only one that thinks that a bet is a bet. Whether its steam or cold piss it is a bet at the odds that are set by the book. If they dont like steam dont offer steam LOL

[tomcowley]

I quoted the last sentence of your post. Something you did say.

Your reading comprehension isn't the best. I didn't deny saying it, I said you took the statement out of context. The readers can judge. You couldn't possibly pay me enough to quit my day job anyway.

You instead twisted everything that I said around, to make me and our book look bad. I really don't understand what your intentions are.

I don't have to do anything to make you look bad- I just distilled the gobbledygook down to the essence- you will retroactively steal from players if you don't like their action.

Honestly, I don't like your attitude, I don't like what you stand for, and I don't like the way you've addressed this whole situation. See, I make decisions based on our rules, the players behavior, and what's fair for everyone.

Let's see, I stand for honoring contracts with players and treating players fairly. I sent a perfectly honest and constructive PM about the situation long before I said one negative word about your book on here. Your idea of "what's fair for everyone" is so warped relative to the A and B (and most C) book industry standards of conduct that it's hard to put into terms short of "the exact opposite of fair". Take trixtrix's challenge and name any incident of a player at an A book losing a granted bonus (future bonus eligibility/betpoints, sure) for steamchasing. Hell, name one at a B book.

I really doubt you have anything to teach me or anyone in our crew on how to handle this player or any type of players. Good day Mr. Crowley, back to work.

I'm not the one saying that my book can't survive financially because of those pesky arbers and middlers and steam chasers. Your business model is.. speculative, and your lines management is terrible for a normal book, much less one trying to make it on the thinner margins you've created for yourselves.

But no, your lines management and account profiling really are top notch, and I couldn't possibly suggest any improvements. It's all the fault of those damn players who sign up and try to win and aren't being "fair" to you by being better than your linesman. You don't have the talent there currently to succeed playing by the rules, so instead of improving or revising your business model, you're just going to steal from players you don't like. Welcome to SBG 2.0. Or BetWay. Don't use the Money Method at Phoenix or they'll rob you.

[dwaechte]

no there are book affiliates and people who associate w/ betp (you, richard, jaime..etc) who agrees w/ their stance

there are PLAYERS (me, tc, hh, justin etc) who disagrees w/ the stance

can you at least get one thing correct in your entire posting history?

ps: the longer we keep this thread alive, the more face/business betp stands to lose. another one of your well thought out plans i'm sure..

--

As for keeping the thread alive, I don't think anyone, whatever side of the argument they're on, wants to deprive the public of information. Despite agreeing with BP on this issue, I hope as many people see this thread as possible and form their own opinions. For the vast majority of the betting public, this thread should have absolutely no bearing on whether or not BP is a good choice for them.


-

[Thremp]

Jaime,

With your attitude, I hope someone forms a charge back syndicate to defraud you. Its only justice.

[Thremp]

PS: "Pro" means winner. Keep in mind that BP knew the player was playing only steam when they extended the 50% bonus and discount lines.

[BouncedCheck]

"We want you to come here and bet steam. If you lose enough, we'll give you a huge bonus equal to the amount that you lost. Keep betting steam and losing....

BUT... if you start to win, we'll snatch the bonus away."

Did I miss anything?

[Justin7]

Any long-term winner will eventually cause steam. Their bankroll will grow, and they will become proficient at betting 20 places at the same time. I don't know of any books that can differentiate between steam and origination from a pro.