A victory for Spain would be a victory for Dutch football

tbill11 · 07-10-10, 01:29 PM

That's funny that you bring this up, because I'm reading Soccernomics right now and the authors make a similar point about Dutch Total Football. They also argue that soon (they said perhaps this year) a team on the periphery of European football would win a Cup. Well, we've got two sides that have never done it before. I'm personally on the Dutch, but it'll be a damn good match either way

Sforz · 07-10-10, 03:40 PM

think dutch are content to win ugly .. and doubt they will consider it a win, if they don't.. however i know what you are saying.

skodaka · 07-10-10, 03:42 PM

netherland take it

skodaka · 07-10-10, 03:43 PM

strong spain but not enough for snider

Dark Horse · 07-10-10, 05:12 PM

I was going to open a similar thread, until I saw this one.

There is no question that Spain 'stole' their playing style from Holland. But my point is somewhat different. Even though Holland came close in 74, 78 and 98, that style -in different variations- never won them a World Cup. You can be certain that the Dutch players are very familiar with Spain's type of play. But Holland itself, in this WC, has moved on from it. The new Dutch style, while obviously less attractive, has been extremely effective. Nothing but W's. So I don't think that Spain can beat Holland with their own old way of playing (after Holland never won a WC with it). From this perspective, it's basically the pupil against the master. And the master has moved on...

On that of that, I don't think Spain has done a particularly good job this World Cup. When the Dutch played it, it was far more flowing and exciting. Spain played one good game against Germany. And Germany was suffering from a strange cocktail of exuberance (after win over Argentina) and too much respect for Spain. If you give Spain that much space you may as well not show up. Holland won't make that mistake. So it's back to struggling for Spain.

In a close game like this it's often not about what a team's plan is, going into the game. But what their backup plan is if it doesn't work. And that's where it comes down to mentality as well. Advantage Holland.

This Dutch team plays a very unusual game. They gradually build up the pressure on the right side of the offensive half. It starts with Robben. He is feared, so teams are afraid to play him one-on-one. This switches some of the accents in the defense. With Sneijder and Van Bommel, and Van Der Wiel to a lesser extent, Holland can build up the pressure here (as they did against Brazil and Uruguay in the second half). They do so with little passes, trademark triangles, as well as excellent individual technique. This increased pressure means that the opponent will have to switch even more to their left side of defense. That team is now defending in a manner that they're not used to at all. Players don't like to be out of their element like that. They want clarity, not confusion. Now they have to think and find solutions on the spot, and they have no way of knowing that they're still thinking on the same page. They know their defense is out of balance, but there's nothing they can do. That's why Brazil looked so confused in the second half, and Uruguay so vulnerable. As one result of this consciously created imbalance, expect the left side of the field to open up for the Dutch offense.

Dirty Sanchez · 07-10-10, 05:20 PM

Tomorrow you might see more Diving then you would at the cliffs of Mexico

suckerforparlays · 07-10-10, 05:41 PM

you guys watch to much ESPN

mihaita666 · 07-10-10, 06:04 PM

great thread Kara, I was thinking about such a thing too, but u have said it perfectly.

JOHON8 · 07-10-10, 10:16 PM

It wouldn't really be a victory for Dutch football, simply because another nation took their playing style and perfected it to a level the Dutch couldn't reach. Basically it would be an embarrassment to Dutch football, to see a team like Spain take such a beautiful playing style and use it better than the inventors. It would be even worse for the Dutch if we see them play scrappy football and use dirty tactics to try and stop a playing style that they invented.

CaptainPrice · 07-10-10, 10:19 PM

Didt holland break from spain??? no

Karayilan9 · 07-11-10, 06:14 PM

Its so ironic, the Dutch turned their back on their own style and tried to play dirty and lost, the Spanish tried to play a system born in Holland and won the WC.

Congratulations Spain, one of the greatest teams in football history!

whitedogau · 07-11-10, 06:32 PM

the dutch guys all got a yellow card each as a memento

lakerboy · 07-11-10, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Karayilan9

Its so ironic, the Dutch turned their back on their own style and tried to play dirty and lost, the Spanish tried to play a system born in Holland and won the WC.

Congratulations Spain, won of the greatest teams in football history!

I dont think so Kary. They struggled to win every game they played bar the honduras game. I understand they won the euro cup and winning the world cup makes that accomplishment only second to germany doing the same in the mid 70's but this Spain side is not one of the greatest in football history. They struggled to score all the time and were ineffective for large parts of the tournament. I credit them with there victory but certainly not even one of the top 5 -10 sides of all time.

A great side is Brazil of 1970. France of 1998 was even better than this side.

Karayilan9 · 07-11-10, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by lakerboy

I dont think so Kary. They struggled to win every game they played bar the honduras game. I understand they won the euro cup and winning the world cup makes that accomplishment only second to germany doing the same in the mid 70's but this Spain side is not one of the greatest in football history. They struggled to score all the time and were ineffective for large parts of the tournament. I credit them with there victory but certainly not even one of the top 5 -10 sides of all time.

A great side is Brazil of 1970. France of 1998 was even better than this side.

Spain are a great team because they have a system, a footballing philosophy and didn't deviate from it, I admire them for keeping to their game.

They are on another level, in every game they kept > 60% possession and dominated, teams that play against them are basically playing not to lose. They sit back and aim for a draw. When teams play Spain they have to change their approach, when Spain play a team they don't worry about the opposition, they just play their style.

There is no team that can play Spain at their game, scary part is they could be stronger in the next Euro's and WC. This team could dominate world football for a while.

MyLuck888 · 07-11-10, 07:14 PM

spain just got lucky

Karayilan9 · 07-11-10, 07:50 PM

The core of the team, in other words the Barcelona players have now won every single competition and cup they can, the La Liga, Copa del Rey, Champions League, Super Cup, World Club Cup, Euro 2008, World Cup 2010.

The force is strong

nice to see a team with a clear philosophy and system doing so well and not having to play dirty and ruin a game in order to win.

Dark Horse · 07-11-10, 07:59 PM

Always easy to talk after the game. The final was ugly. Spain is not close to greatness. Nor is this Dutch team. Robben could and should have put the game away twice in regulation. No idea how he missed those 100% chances. But he did. It comes down to the same old, same old: no luck, no cup.

infamousbacardi · 07-11-10, 08:02 PM

I'm not criticizing any poster here, just the style of the game in general tonight....You can say someone tried to play dirty, but I saw no one flop more in this entire tournament than Iniesta. I had money on the draw in this game, so I'm quite happy...but watching players like Iniesta go down grabbing their shins when they literally weren't even touched is just a disgrace. So tired of that garbage.

lakerboy · 07-11-10, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by Dark Horse

Always easy to talk after the game. The final was ugly. Spain is not close to greatness. Nor is this Dutch team. Robben could and should have put the game away twice in regulation. No idea how he missed those 100% chances. But he did. It comes down to the same old, same old: no luck, no cup.

Thank you DH.

Originally posted by infamousbacardi

I'm not criticizing any poster here, just the style of the game in general tonight....You can say someone tried to play dirty, but I saw no one flop more in this entire tournament than Iniesta. I had money on the draw in this game, so I'm quite happy...but watching players like Iniesta go down grabbing their shins when they literally weren't even touched is just a disgrace. So tired of that garbage.

Typical Spaniard. There behaviour tonight throughout the match was typical of those type of footballers. You see the same from the south americans. Crowding the ref and asking for yellow cards. Webb pulled the card on Heitinga after Iniesta asked for it. The funny thing was Iniesta dove( like he had all tourney) to get Heitinga sent off. The final was a bore and the ending was expected .

Karayilan9 · 07-11-10, 08:10 PM

Common De Jong could have been arrested for that flying drop kick

pavyracer · 07-11-10, 08:12 PM

Congrats Spain! It was obvious after a while whoever scored the first goal would have won. I do not understand why they didn't use Huntelaar instead of Elia. They could have moved Van Persie to the left to take Kuyt's spot and play with Huntelaar at the top. Elia was too inexperienced for a final.

Scorpion · 07-11-10, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Karayilan9

The title may sound strange but a victory for Spain would see the Dutch inspired Total Football philosophies realized on the biggest stage. Todays Spain is basically playing the Barcelona system. This was introduced to Barcelona by Rinus Michels, the coach of the last century, the father of Total Football bought the system with him to the team. Later Johan Cruyff, Michels footballing disciple carried the torch for Total football and spread it further and became a key member of Barcelona and cementing this philosophy into the club. The later Dutch and managers trained up from within the club all shared this same system.

The Dutch have turned their back on Total Football in this world cup, its ironic that they have been so successful doing this and that Spain could win the WC playing the "Dutch style".

Is it win win for Oranje

Dutch Total Football?? and what the **** is that?? if you are referring to how Holland played 20+ yers ago when they lost 2 more world cups then Spain is definitely not playing Dutch style football because thats not how Holland played!!

Any great manager knows in sports like soccer, american football, even basketball if you control the ball you control the time of possession and therefore you control the game, add good defense to this equation so you can get ball back faster when you lose it and you are set to do great great things, all you need now are smart players who can execute it, the problem is most managers are just dumb and dont get this shit and want to play pretty!

lakerboy · 07-11-10, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by Karayilan9

Common De Jong could have been arrested for that flying drop kick

He should have been sent off. Good old Howard Webb. Cant wait to see him help Man U win some games this year.

Scorpion · 07-11-10, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Karayilan9

A victory for Spain would be a victory for Dutch football

Is it win win for Oranje

If that how the 3 time losers in the world cup finals want to think then thats just so ****** up!!

This is so ******* funny and in a way so ******* stupid!!!

Karayilan9 · 07-11-10, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by lakerboy

He should have been sent off. Good old Howard Webb. Cant wait to see him help Man U win some games this year.

He was awful, was not consistent with his bookings, missed the Dutch martial arts show, Holland had a clear corner in extra time from their free kick but it wasn't given, their was a foul against Elia before Spain score their goal, that Dutch red card shouldn't have been given, he lets De Jong get away with fly kicks but sends off the defender for that soft challenge.... so many mistakes at this level!

Scorpion · 07-11-10, 08:29 PM

Hey pal,

Dutch soccer is the Minnesota Viking and Buffalo Bills of American football, the 2 teams that never won shit!!

Im happy the Saints won because they play the Buffal Bills style of football so its a victory for Buffalo!

Karayilan9 · 07-11-10, 08:32 PM

Have you been drinking Scorpion

your not making sense

Dark Horse · 07-11-10, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by Karayilan9

He was awful, was not consistent with his bookings, missed the Dutch martial arts show, Holland had a clear corner in extra time from their free kick but it wasn't given, their was a foul against Elia before Spain score their goal, that Dutch red card shouldn't have been given, he lets De Jong get away with fly kicks but sends off the defender for that soft challenge.... so many mistakes at this level!

English ref was a bad idea. The English don't understand international soccer. They should just stay on their island and never leave it. The English team, English coaching, English press, English tv commentating, it all sucks beyond belief. When will these people stop embarrassing themselves where it comes to soccer?

JOHON8 · 07-11-10, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Dark Horse

English ref was a bad idea. The English don't understand international soccer. They should just stay on their island and never leave it. The English team, English coaching, English press, English tv commentating, it all sucks beyond belief. When will these people stop embarrassing themselves where it comes to soccer?

English commentating should not be on that list, it is by far the best in the world. Howard Webb wasn't great, and that's only because Holland should've been down to 10 men much earlier.

It's not a surprise Holland played dirty, they knew they were going to be outplayed by their own style and knew the only way to win was to play dirty and inch a goal out of it. Robben was stopped by the goalkeeper of the Tournament, as for putting the game away both teams could've done that many times, but in the end the best team won with a legitimate and well played goal.

Scorpion · 07-11-10, 10:08 PM

Karayilan9 is dutch~!

Karayilan9 · 07-12-10, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Scorpion

Karayilan9 is dutch~!

Am I

cornerkick · 07-12-10, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by Karayilan9

He was awful, was not consistent with his bookings, missed the Dutch martial arts show, Holland had a clear corner in extra time from their free kick but it wasn't given, their was a foul against Elia before Spain score their goal, that Dutch red card shouldn't have been given, he lets De Jong get away with fly kicks but sends off the defender for that soft challenge.... so many mistakes at this level!

Well, you're one-sided on this one. The two possible red cards were in the first 45 minutes, possibly 25. I don't know who would send off two players in a world cup final that early in the game. He did send one out, maybe not the one he should've, but that was a clear statement for the Dutch team as a whole. He made some mistakes, but who wouldn't in such a game? I think nobody would've done much better than Webb.

Scorpion · 07-12-10, 02:49 PM

Howards only mistake, he should have given the Dutch player RED card here in the 1st half, no doubt it

infamousbacardi · 07-12-10, 03:05 PM

I don't think people should be crying about the officiating.