I'm pretty sure everyone knew the NSA was tracking calls, and doing other things that we don't know about. I think the thing that makes it worse is when the government denies it. If more than a million people have some type security clearance, eventually someone is going to hold the government accountable for lies. Im not sure if hes a hero, but he is definitely not a criminal.
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He's a traitor. The terrorists now know they are being tracked via phone, internet, and email. They will find new ways to communicate now. I hope this fukker burns in hell cause another attack can happen just like that and we wont knowComment -
If he's definitely not a criminal, then he's certainly not a traitor.
Therefore by process of elimination he must be a hero.Comment -
Because of two facts this man is no hero. Fact one certain factions in this world have no problem dying if they can kill Americans. Fact two the world now contains WMD which include nuclear devices. We all agree that if these people can get their hands on any type of nuclear device they will use it that is a given that is not open for debate. If a half dozen decent size nuclear devices are used in strategic cities it could very well be the end of life as we know it now. If you think that isn't true you better think again. Now if we as a free people need to give up a certain amount of privacy in order to keep these people from getting WMD I don't think that is an invasion of privacy that is a deal breaker. This has been going on for years, tell me how has it changed your life, how has your privacy been invaded to such a degree that it is intrusive? It hasn't. Keep in mind that these people will do anything they can to detonate nuclear weapons in any free country. I don't think this is a debate this kid is no hero.
Also I don't really believe this is a political thing, both parties with only the exception of the crazies agree that this type of security is needed. Both D and R almost universally agree that the little bit of freedom lost certainly is greatly outweighed by the dangers involved with WMD. If you don't agree now I wonder if you just might change your mind when you see the destruction that one of these weapons can do to lets say to the business district in NY city. Add a few more in Washington DC and other key cities and life would be disrupted maybe to the point of near extinction or at the very least to a great many dead and dying and a life that no way resembles what we now enjoy.Last edited by dante1; 06-24-13, 01:24 AM.Comment -
The world is a dangerous place, as it has been for most of recorded history, and it will probably only become more so. Unfortunately for your premise, nobody has been able to show that giving up our privacy or other rights makes us any safer or leads to catching terrorists before the acts are committed.
It certainly is a political thing by defintion; just because the 2 major parties act identically on an issue doesn't make them correct (otherwise they'd always be right, as they usually do the same things aside from their rhetoric). The funny thing about rights and the protections of them laid out in the Consitution is that the majority of voters shoudln't get to take away the rights of others simply because they don't mind giving up those rights themselves. If you don't mind an inept and inefficient waste of money like the NSA having your information, feel free to volunteer it if it would make you feel safer...just don't try to force others to sacrifice for your illusion of safety.
Furthermore, motivated people will find a way to make things happen...if you want to minimize terrorist acts, a more effective strategy is to stop giving people reasons to commit them. Stop voting in polticians who send our troops to die playing policeman of the world, destroying countries and families, and making it vastly easier for a handful of nutjobs to recruit people who had their lives destroyed by our imperial wars.
Given how we came into being as a country, it's pretty pathetic that we can't understand why someone might want to cause us harm when we arbitrarily screw with their lives.
On the original topic, the guy's certainly no traitor or criminal, and it certainly took a lot of balls to do what he did. It's kinda sad he had to throw away his life to make people aware of what their elected officials specifically said they were going to do, but if it leads apathetic voters to wake up and stop pretending government is going to solve all of our problems for us, I'd donate to a statue in his honor
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Well the NSA said at least 50 terrorist attacks were thwarted.
The terrorists are surely motivated and they have not been able to...make things happens concerning nuclear weapons. So maybe we shouldn't assume.
I agree we have made mistakes screwing with their lives but that gun has been fired and no taking back the bullet. So we live with those consequences.
I respectfully disagree with your last paragraph, yes it took balls but he betrayed his country when he passed info that was super sensitive and secret. And certainly government can't solve all our problems but the question of security is one problem that they most certainly should tackle.Comment -
most of the citizens think he is a hero and our government and politicians think he is a traitor.
what iq do you need to possess to anal-yze given circumstances to come up with the conclusion that once again, these politicians want to fukk us up the ass?
what pisses me off more are the numb nuts that have no problems with our government spying on us.
i know this quote is overused but..."they that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -ben franklinComment -
Call me crazy, but with the countless time the various government agencies have lied to us (including about this very issue), I don't think it's wise to just take their word for it on their effectiveness. Also, I don't see whether or not a nuclear device has been detonated by terrorists as the go/no-go test for measuring effectiveness, lol.
The problem with the mistakes we've made is that we continue to make them every day and refuse to stop...until our mindset changes, we're going to continue to create our own enemies and we'll be less afe because of it.
So exposing government overreach is wrong because the government has declared that they would prefer nobody knew about it? Doesn't quite follow. Given the abystmal job government does when we put them in charge of security instead of private security (TSA for example), putting them in charge of any and all security seems a bit foolish.Comment -
I don't want you guys to get the wrong impression of what I am attempting to say. I think the government must be watched carefully because they will no doubt either because of overreaching or just plain stupidity engage in activity that is harmful to the American people. I am all for being vigilant and making sure our rights are not trampled. We agree on this point.
But we disagree on this particular issue because what is being exposed can be thousands of times more dangerous than the activity itself. Guys all governments spy on each other and even their own people. Friendly governments spy on each other this is nothing new and all of us know this. Also this is not a D or R issue because both parties do it when in power and most people realize it. Now when a government employee, somebody working for the security of our country, a person who took an oath and promised never to do anything detrimental to that country does what this kid did imo he is no hero. We are talking about serious WMD here and the main purpose of any government is to protect their people. You know our government must be watched and checks and balances employed but please let us not compare what the US is doing with regimes like the Nazi and Soviet government. And keep in mind that this was started in earnest during a R administration and I am not stating that to push blame because in my opinion there is no blame in fact I feel a little more secure than I do paranoid.Last edited by dante1; 06-24-13, 07:53 AM.Comment -
Snowden is a coward, plain and simple.
He was probably a 2nd or 3rd child who told on his older siblings all the time.
He probably was doing a shit job and was reprimanded, probably on the verge of getting canned.
Got mad and retaliated.
If you guys think he's a hero, then you condone theft. He stole govt property, the same as ripping off
a store only with higher consequences.Comment -
What other countries attitudes toward Americans are has no bearing whatsoever on what the government is allowed and not allowed to do under the Constitution.
The government has no authority Constitutionally for these spy programs or for spying on Americans. This isn;t Nazi Germany under Hitler with their secret police spying on their citizens and neighbors ratting each other out.Comment -
Well let us continue with the argument that is being made that this guy is a hero. If what he did was heroic and not treason then it follows that any individual working for the CIA, FBI or any branch of our government procuring intelligence can at will talk about this intelligence whenever and wherever if he feels it is in the best interest of the people. You see when you take this argument to a logical conclusion it makes no sense at all. Governments have secrets this is not something new. People that are entrusted with those secrets are committing a grievous crime when they talk about such secrets.
R Paul exhibited how crazy his political philosophy is when he said this clown will go down in history as a hero. No Mr Paul our soldiers are heroes, our agents are heroes, law enforcement are heroes a high school drop out that releases top secret sensitive info to the world is not a hero, we have different defining terms for this type of person and hero is not included.Comment -
He didn't reveal anything new to the public in general (Biden and others spoke of this program in the media in 2006 and beyond)
That being said he expanded details of said program which are in violation of his contract/laws/oath/responsibility given which just based in fact leaving ideology out of it...is a crime black and white. You sign legal papers once you obtain clearance for one...and you also sign not to steal info that is not yours and hand it out to unauthorized persons whether that be the reporters or foreign governments.
He's not doing himself any favors by hiding out in nations like China/Russia/and Venezuela and claiming to be all about information freedoms is he?Comment -
binladen knew long time ago that terrorists are tracked via phone, internet and email. I thought everybody knew this. In my country everyone with half a brain will tell you that everything is recorded and stored for 6 months and we don't even have terrorists here. I am surprised that people are so "shocked" about what snowden is talking about. 2 weeks before the world even knew his name, there was an x-mi5 guy in a special report by bbc in which he was talking about these tracking programs that can detect potential terrorists 9 out of 10 but in the process it will also pick up millions of false alarms (which are innocent citizens).
If this guy is a traitor he is saying what everyone with a brain was suspecting. If he is a hero, then he is the one eyed hero of the blind. He might be just a simple idiot. He will probably be watched for the rest of his life, and will not be able to go back to his homeland. And if he goes back he will go to jail for life and after 3 or 4 years there he will completely regret everything. US has about 875.000 people with top secret clearance. It is a lot. It is normal for them to say these guys are traitors who face life in jail because to be honest it is the only way to try and reduce the potential of further leaks. Kind of hard to monitor every small step these 875.000 people do and even if you manage to do that, it's almost impossible to prevent a leak when one decides to do it.Last edited by allin1; 06-24-13, 10:48 AM.Comment -
Actually these people take an oath not to speak out about their activities. Rob, this is a balancing act and I think most of us are fearful of an overtly and overly powerful government. I am, you are and most agree. But, this particular situation is different like IP said this is nothing new our government has increased surveillance and spying even on their own citizen. Personally it doesn't bother me because I know the opposite of that can mean total destruction of our country. You think that is an exaggeration, it isn't. If those assholes get their hands on nuclear devices they will use them and we will be in serious trouble. You will no longer worry about our government spying on us you will worry about your next meal and clean water. A nuclear detonation or worse multiple nuclear strikes can easily turn our country into cave man technology. And the irony of this is big business such as Google probably have more info on the average American than our government.Comment -
Guy is a hero for exposing the unconstitutional activity of the government. The government is not America. It has taken upon itself a life of its own. It sees its own citizens as its enemy.Comment -
Looks like we have a bunch of Snowdens (cowards, thieves) in here.Comment -
You're taking pretty sizeable liberties interpreting what he said.
If Snowden had been privy to a plot to down a foreign passenger airline, or kill a prominent politician or public figure in America...or came across the plan for how the government was going to ignore the 2nd amendment and start confiscating guns - you'd be ok with him not saying anything because he pledged an oath? Is there anything you can conceive of where it'd be ok for him to break this oath?
The government is in clear violation of the 4th amendment with this intrusive spying on citizens.Comment -
He's right and you're wrong.
The government engaging in illegal and criminal activites against it's own people automatically makes it the people's enemy.
Exposure of such activities is heroic. The Founding Fathers stood against their criminal King and fought a war against him to win their freedom and founded a new country.
In your view, they are criminals and traitors too.Comment -
If you follow that logic to a conclusion that is what you get, no liberties taken. If this guy is a hero then anybody with sensitive info can become a hero if he/she drapes it with...I am doing this because the government is spying on citizens. I am completely for and support all the rights in our constitution and I am very much in favor of checks and balances on our government or for that matter any government. However, when the very existence of our government and our nation can be in jeopardy because an individual feels he has the right to compromise national secrets that is where I draw a line. Very few things more precious than our rights but one that might just be just as precious is the survival of our people and our republic.
Times are changing, at no other time in history can a group of crazy people independently cause great physical harm via nuclear weapons. Obviously our government security is working more than just decently. People in the know tell us that these procedures implemented during the bush presidency and carried on by Obama are working and we have enjoyed relatively few terror attacks from these animals. If that means some government organization may read my emails and listen to my conversations realize that I am not a terrorist disregard what I am saying and go on to the next possible threat--well let me tell you this it doesn't make me scream with happiness but it certainly is acceptable during a time when crazy people are hell bent on destroying our country. I can live with it.Comment -
Without having an opinion in this discussion, just a couple of questions.
Was this proofed in any way, or is just "they said"?
From the little I read about this, it seems pretty much what has been presented through his leaks is that said governments surveillance is large, and maybe larger than expected. If thats the case doesnt your 2 above statements severely contradict eachother? It seems to me all he did was confirming what was already suspected rather than leaking super sensitive information as you put it?I respectfully disagree with your last paragraph, yes it took balls but he betrayed his country when he passed info that was super sensitive and secret.
Again, not followed this too closely feel free to link me to sources that claim he's leaked this very sensitive information (I read he had his hands on stuff, and that included things he didnt want to leak because he deemed it to be too sensitive from a security standpoint).Comment -
It isn't keeping me safe, it is keeping the country safe and that includes me my children you and your children and everybody else.
Right at this minute I am not very concerned about what our government is doing, I think that mostly they are following the rule of law in most every case. If and when it is proven that they are getting carried away and tapping phones just to tap phones or for some other illegal reason I will join with you and more than likely the ACLU too in protest. I can't explain my position any clearer than that. I am not of the opinion that our intelligence agencies are compromising our freedoms but if that becomes clear that they are and they are using these methods for anything else than national security I will march with you carrying signs of civil disobedience.Comment -
I am not condoning govt lies, and definitely not condoning the extension (which happens far too often) of an otherwise logical program meant to help in the intelligence fight.
I'm speaking specifically to the actions of Snowden and guys like Bradley Manning. There are ways to vent frustrations against harsh misdeeds but the two issues I have with both of these guys as a general rule is the fact that they deemed themselves the righteous deciders and instead of following a different path to solving a wrong they instead increased the problem.
These people don't have access/knowledge about materials contained inside the files they stole and gave out...not knowing what harm could be done, not by just outing the files, but from what is contained in them. Much is made in the headlines that 'Snowden had secret clearance' but if you've ever been in govt you know the levels mean different things and just a basic secret clearance is given to anyone who is a member of the armed services etc...secret doesn't mean classified and above levels. Even a member of say Seal Team 6 who has some of the highest clearance can't just walk in an office and type in a password like on movies and see mission details of other Seal Teams or military info. It's compartmentalized for a reason...not just a free pass of info. Snowden was basically the house cleaner who stole the safe from a house and sold it.
As I posted before...Snowden didn't 'out' any new program he just drew updated attention to it....but what he did do was take things not belonging to him and fled the country to known enemies and if they get things not only can they possibly access files but they can reverse engineer the model itself to better defend in the future. Thats where I'll leave it.Comment -
Government officials also take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, and they almost universally ignore this oath as soon as they're sworn in. If Snowden had knowingly leaked details of an operation against a legitimate target, it would be another matter entirely...but he didn't. Instead, he made the public more aware that the government was targeting its own citizens without due process in the blind hope of being able to stop crimes from being committed.
I agree with you that a nuclear detonation would be bad, but I can't fathom why you keep bringing it up when what he leaked wasn't connected in any way to a dirty bomb and none of the Orwellian techniques used by our agencies seem to have prevented any such thing. We didn't have nuclear bombs being detonated before we started mass surveillance programs; what makes you think we'd have them in the future? Nobody wants to be blown up; but I also don't want to give up personal rights to agencies with such abysmally ineffective track records of, and who can't even be bothered to tell us the truth. Just because it's nothing new doesn't mean we should be alarmed. and take action.
Google, Facebook etc do have quite a bit of information on people...but the big difference is that information is given voluntarily with the person's consent. If I give you a piece of cake, that's my right to do so; if you take it from me without my consent, it's theft and a violation of my rights...same principle applies (at least as far as the government is concerned; right to privacy between individuals is a trickier subject).
Snowden violated his contract, but he did so to expose a greater evil and evidence of the government violating their contract on a grander scale....can't really fault him for not playing by the rules when he discovered his employers subverting the Constitution. While it's been noted all he did was expose what our politicians voted into law, he still exposed the lies of the NSA and showed us yet another instance of the government misusing the power we give it.Comment -
Why even teach kids growing up that telling lies and stealing is wrong? It's pretty obvious that the only way to live the American dream is to lie, cheat, and steal. It seems like if you just need to train ur kids not to get caught.Comment -
people like you are the reason why our once great nation is all fukked up.
our rights are taken away daily and you support the way they do things over there in that little white house.
go fukk yourself pal!!!
"...no country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more." -mark twainComment -
you know what happens when you try to solve a wrong in an alternative way?
people that know too much end up in a ditch, die in an alleged accidental plane crashes, or most often, they are taken down by alleged suicides.
bottom line, you end up dead pal. wake up and smell your dentures...Comment -
Blow it out your butt pal. You're one of those little snitches that runs to mommy when big bro picks on you. Grow a set.
It's actually your generation who's fcking up this once great nation. We built it, you reap the rewards and want more
while doing nothing to get it.
We are letting them do what they are doing to us, why, because people like you don't want to get involved in voting
and contacting your representative. All you guys want to do is protest with your hands out.Comment -
Snowden is one of the greatest American heroes to ever live.
God bless that man!!!Comment
