What would you do?

[Emily_Haines]

Was playing 10/20 O8 last night. Lost about 300 and decided to call it a night. Went over to say goodnight to a friend of mine and he wants me to play in this 300 survivor game. The survivor game is a single table tournament that you buy in for $330 and they give you $300 in tournament chips. It's just the casinos game that they can play to skirt the states $100 max bet rule. I'm like dude I don't have $330 on me. He says not worry he will borrow me what I need. I'm like OK I'll play.

Blinds are $1 and $3 for first hour. This is the very first hand and I'm UTG +2 look at first card and it is red ace, look at second card and is another red ace. Keep in mind I never played with any of these players before except for my friend. The UTG raises to $12 and I make my standard 3 bet to $30. I was expecting it just to fold around to original raiser like it usually does when I play at Northwood. But I'm like what the fuk 5 people call including the original raiser.

The flop comes Q86 with two diamonds

The UTG guy leads out and bets $75 (about half pot)

action on me and I have $270 left

What do you do?

[Cuse0323]

All-in and hope for the best. I'm not folding there.

[nomeansno]

serious question?

[Jeffie]

5 ppl called your 3b? someone can easily have set here. I call here anyways and drag the guy outside and kick his ass when he shows the nuts.

[daneblazer]

serious question?

6 players deep it's not that easy. That's a really, really drawy board. Flush Draws, 79, T9 all have several outs plus there's set and two pair possibilities. UTG didn't go back over the top of you with 4 callers behind so we can probably discount KK and AA in the range, but not eliminate it all together. First hand, I'm assuming a few of these guys are calling with a wide range. You didn't have this luxury, but running this through poker stove.

UTG- KQos+ QQ+ in this range
You - AA
P3 - Any pair, any broadway, any suited
P4 - Any pair, any broadway, any suited
P5 - 88+ KJs+
P6 - Random

Aces are still slightly over a 40% favorite vs. their ranges and there's already around $255 in the pot with his bet. Probably won't be the popular move here, but I'd lean towards min raising even with $270 left then getting it in on the turn. It'd knock out the garbage hands, maybe get a drawy hand to call with bad odds, or end up isolating the UTG bettor where you're a gigantic favorite vs his range. Unless you have some sort of physic read you're up against two pair or a set it'd be tough to fold there...and if you're up against those hands they're going to call a flop shove from you anyway.

[nomeansno]

6 players deep it's not that easy. That's a really, really drawy board. Flush Draws, 79, T9 all have several outs plus there's set and two pair possibilities. UTG didn't go back over the top of you with 4 callers behind so we can probably discount KK and AA in the range, but not eliminate it all together. First hand, I'm assuming a few of these guys are calling with a wide range. You didn't have this luxury, but running this through poker stove.

UTG- KQos+ QQ+ in this range
You - AA
P3 - Any pair, any broadway, any suited
P4 - Any pair, any broadway, any suited
P5 - 88+ KJs+
P6 - Random

Aces are still slightly over a 40% favorite vs. their ranges and there's already around $255 in the pot with his bet. Probably won't be the popular move here, but I'd lean towards min raising even with $270 left then getting it in on the turn. It'd knock out the garbage hands, maybe get a drawy hand to call with bad odds, or end up isolating the UTG bettor where you're a gigantic favorite vs his range. Unless you have some sort of physic read you're up against two pair or a set it'd be tough to fold there...and if you're up against those hands they're going to call a flop shove from you anyway.

180 in the pot, 75 to you if you minraise then its 150 to the next guy into a 400 pot which gives him very good odds..

anyway probably nobody is that bad to call your minraise with a draw for half their stack and fold on the turn ui, so they will go with it even if you push the flop, since the pot is already huge.. no other move makes sense.

also i think utg`s range is wider

[thetrinity]

shove and feel ok about it, only beat by sets, u have a little over a pot sized bet. danes min raise is effectively an all in neways IMO, maybe it leaves room for a sick fold with a ton of action behind us but thats about it. im guessin the guy had a set and lead out and u went home 330 less.

[thetrinity]

180 in the pot, 75 to you if you minraise then its 150 to the next guy into a 400 pot which gives him very good odds..

anyway probably nobody is that bad to call your minraise with a draw for half their stack and fold on the turn ui, so they will go with it even if you push the flop, since the pot is already huge.. no other move makes sense.

also i think utg`s range is wider

this is wrong. theres 5 players at 30 chips a piece preflop = 154 (if the blinds passed, we dont know)

UTG bets 75+154= 229 in the pot

[thetrinity]

actually 259 in the pot when it gets to emily on the flop i forgot about her 30. she got 270 left this gota be a shove on this board everytime.

[nomeansno]

I obv meant the pot before utg`s bet

[daneblazer]

anyway probably nobody is that bad to call your minraise with a draw for half their stack and fold on the turn ui, so they will go with it even if you push the flop, since the pot is already huge.. no other move makes sense.

also i think utg`s range is wider

Well if they go all in on the flop with a draw, isn't that a good thing? We could call the flop, if someone goes all in behind us, and there is another caller behind him, we can fold aces if you want to play it that way...but that's opening up the possibility of keeping more and more people in the pot as the hand progresses. Ideally I'd like to be isolated vs. UTG but if a draw wants to come along for the ride, they can. I certainly wouldn't fault a shove on the flop, I just think it misses some value out of your aces there. It may get someone with top pair to fold and like I said, if you're up against a set you're going to get called anyway. You think UTG would fire out into a 6 way pot with TT JJ AK? It's possible. Most players won't fire out here without a piece of the flop unless they are a really bad lag. As far as "no one is that bad"...well, you'd be surprised

[thetrinity]

I obv meant the pot before utg`s bet

people who are skipping over are gona get confused thats why i pointed it out. anyways, the more in the pot the more a shove is the only play anyways. no one ever has q8 q6 or 68 unless they r the worst who ever lived.

[thetrinity]

Well if they go all in on the flop with a draw, isn't that a good thing? We could call the flop, if someone goes all in behind us, and there is another caller behind him, we can fold aces if you want to play it that way...but that's opening up the possibility of keeping more and more people in the pot as the hand progresses. Ideally I'd like to be isolated vs. UTG but if a draw wants to come along for the ride, they can. I certainly wouldn't fault a shove on the flop, I just think it misses some value out of your aces there. It may get someone with top pair to fold and like I said, if you're up against a set you're going to get called anyway. You think UTG would fire out into a 6 way pot with TT JJ AK? It's possible. Most players won't fire out here without a piece of the flop unless they are a really bad lag. As far as "no one is that bad"...well, you'd be surprised

whos gona be that dumb to stick 270 over 150 with a raise and reraise in front of them and no fold equity? if they were they would play for 270 anyways. if they call 150 they would call 270 IMO with 2 cards left. no one would cold call 150 then fold for 120 on the turn.

id love to know what these other players had to cold call a UTG raise then reraise from early position though, theres seriously not one hand i would call the 30 with on the first hand with no information, id put the 4th bet in with kk and aa and fold everything else.

[nomeansno]

Well if they go all in on the flop with a draw, isn't that a good thing? We could call the flop, if someone goes all in behind us, and there is another caller behind him, we can fold aces if you want to play it that way...but that's opening up the possibility of keeping more and more people in the pot as the hand progresses. Ideally I'd like to be isolated vs. UTG but if a draw wants to come along for the ride, they can. I certainly wouldn't fault a shove on the flop, I just think it misses some value out of your aces there. It may get someone with top pair to fold and like I said, if you're up against a set you're going to get called anyway. You think UTG would fire out into a 6 way pot with TT JJ AK? It's possible. Most players won't fire out here without a piece of the flop unless they are a really bad lag. As far as "no one is that bad"...well, you'd be surprised

that`s what i`m saying, it doesn`t matter if you push or minraise in that regard, because they will call with their draw anyway, and you also can`t minraise fold half your stack away. only move is to push the flop.

i meant utg could also easily have a fd himself

[Emily_Haines]

I thought about for at least a full minute. The one thing that concerned me is if the UTG lead out with pocket QQ. If it were me and I had pocket QQ on that flop I would have bet close to pot with so many players in the hand and on that flop. The smallish bet to me made it less likely he had that hand. I didn't see much difference in min raising or jamming, so I decided to just stick it all in and hope for the best. The other players folded and it got back to the UTG and he went into the tank, muttering that I have pocket KK. Don't know why but he decided to call the all in with AQ and did not improve.

[daneblazer]

The other players folded and it got back to the UTG and he went into the tank, muttering that I have pocket KK. Don't know why but he decided to call the all in with AQ and did not improve.

And that's why I would think about doing the min raise. I want this guy around. A shove almost scared him off. Anyways, just my opinion...maybe I'm horribly wrong. Just believe a shove misses a little value, not that it's a bad thing to do.

I played a hand a little similar to this months ago. I flopped a set in a multi way pot against a few bad lags. It was something like Q 7 5...Guy in early position leads out for pot, bad lag insta jams, I go all in over the top of him and the ep guy calls, the mp lag had some draw and the ep lag flips over Q6. Like what did you think you were beating there with Queen 6 buddy? He was genuinely amazed that his queen wasn't good enough either. "Man, a pair of ladies aint good enough here I guess". hahaha. So before you think "nobody is that bad"...think again.

[thetrinity]

I thought about for at least a full minute. The one thing that concerned me is if the UTG lead out with pocket QQ. If it were me and I had pocket QQ on that flop I would have bet close to pot with so many players in the hand and on that flop. The smallish bet to me made it less likely he had that hand. I didn't see much difference in min raising or jamming, so I decided to just stick it all in and hope for the best. The other players folded and it got back to the UTG and he went into the tank, muttering that I have pocket KK. Don't know why but he decided to call the all in with AQ and did not improve.

smelt like aq to me actually. good hand. he definitely could have folded to your all in, pretty obv u got aa or kk IMO, i guess u could have ak of diamonds if he didnt have ace of diamonds and u r a real maniac.

if he had qq there its just a cooler and move on IMO, pretty unlikely he had 88 or 66 since he raised utg first hand.

[thetrinity]

And that's why I would think about doing the min raise. I want this guy around. A shove almost scared him off. Anyways, just my opinion...maybe I'm horribly wrong. Just believe a shove misses a little value.

I played a hand a little similar to this months ago. I flopped a set in a multi way pot against a few bad lags. It was something like Q 7 5...Guy in early position leads out for pot, bad lag insta jams, I go all in over the top of him and the ep guy calls, the mp lag had some draw and the ep lag flips over Q6. Like what did you think you were beating there with Queen 6 buddy? He was genuinely amazed that his queen wasn't good enough either. "Man, a pair of ladies aint good enough here I guess". hahaha. So before you think "nobody is that bad"...think again.

i understand what you are saying but if i had aq i woulda folded to a min raise there IMO. hes put more then half his stack in if he calls the min raise anyways, deeper id agree with you.

[thetrinity]

emily question about this survivor tournament. do you just play like a normal cash game and get up at any time or whats the deal? or do they pay out like a normal sit n go.

[Emily_Haines]

emily question about this survivor tournament. do you just play like a normal cash game and get up at any time or whats the deal? or do they pay out like a normal sit n go.

I don't like playing them because they play more like a tournament than a cash game. The players that get short just stick it all in preflop with AK, AQ and small pocket pairs. Unlike a cash game where you can get up and leave at any time in this game you can't. It runs for 2 hours and you can decide not to play but you still have to post blinds until the time runs out. Also I think the rake is far too much. $30 for two hours seems excessive to me. These are the reasons why I never play these things.

[thetrinity]

I don't like playing them because they play more like a tournament than a cash game. The players that get short just stick it all in preflop with AK, AQ and small pocket pairs. Unlike a cash game where you can get up and leave at any time in this game you can't. It runs for 2 hours and you can decide not to play but you still have to post blinds until the time runs out. Also I think the rake is far too much. $30 for two hours seems excessive to me. These are the reasons why I never play these things.

missouri has a similar law and did somethin like this a few years back when i went out there. thought it was kinda stupid myself.

i was checkin out your casinos website looks like they got a big tournament august 4 u gona play in that?

[Emily_Haines]

missouri has a similar law and did somethin like this a few years back when i went out there. thought it was kinda stupid myself.

i was checkin out your casinos website looks like they got a big tournament august 4 u gona play in that?

No. I rarely play the tournaments. They have tournaments almost every day. My buddy played in the bounty tournament last night and lasted 30 minutes. He said he tried to bluff a guy on every street with an all in on the river and got called by AK unimproved. Lot's of bad players in these things.

[daneblazer]

i understand what you are saying but if i had aq i woulda folded to a min raise there IMO.

Right...you would have...a min raise there from me polarizes my range...more so to the strong side. You probably would have folded to an all-in with AQ in that situation as well. But there's a reason for that. You're not a bad player.

A bad player doesn't see that. They just see "I have 75 to call a big pot of $400 and I have a queen, I have to call." or "I have 2 diamonds, I have to call." They aren't even giving any consideration as to what you have and they usually see an all in as a big sign of strength. Don't under estimate the power the words "All In" has on players at the table. Stations will call off nearly or all of their entire stack chasing a draw and leave just a few dollars behind then reluctantly call the river with their last $30 in a $400 pot or even flat out fold with $30 behind if they miss their draw and reload. (Though I don't think reloading is an option in this situation).

I think you're thinking too much about what a good player would do in that situation. If UTG raises and UTG +1 3bets...most decent players will see that as someone in that position having a good hand and will tighten their range, but instead we have 5 callers which tells me there's a lot of drawing hands out there and these guys like to call.

All in all, there's not really a bad move here. Just want to milk the value for what I can. I like this thread...good luck.

[BeerDog99]

Intelligent discussion where people disagree without swearing and insulting each others mothers.....

Good thread, thanks guys!

[stefan084]

i did your mom last night

[thetrinity]

Right...you would have...a min raise there from me polarizes my range...more so to the strong side. You probably would have folded to an all-in with AQ in that situation as well. But there's a reason for that. You're not a bad player.

A bad player doesn't see that. They just see "I have 75 to call a big pot of $400 and I have a queen, I have to call." or "I have 2 diamonds, I have to call." They aren't even giving any consideration as to what you have and they usually see an all in as a big sign of strength. Don't under estimate the power the words "All In" has on players at the table. Stations will call off nearly or all of their entire stack chasing a draw and leave just a few dollars behind then reluctantly call the river with their last $30 in a $400 pot or even flat out fold with $30 behind if they miss their draw and reload. (Though I don't think reloading is an option in this situation).

I think you're thinking too much about what a good player would do in that situation. If UTG raises and UTG +1 3bets...most decent players will see that as someone in that position having a good hand and will tighten their range, but instead we have 5 callers which tells me there's a lot of drawing hands out there and these guys like to call.

All in all, there's not really a bad move here. Just want to milk the value for what I can. I like this thread...good luck.

good points, i brought this hand up to a few other people. they said same thing, no matter what you do is going to look strong, but u cant just call with 4 players left behind you, you just have to hope the player who bet makes a bad call and thats what happened in this case.

[borednaz]

We've all been there. We bet out for more than we should with top pair top kicker, see a shove all in go into the tank and just know we're beat. It's a weird human thought pattern, I've seen so many guys know they should fold but just give up and call. Did you place in the tourney emily?