Could you. or should you, fold your set of aces here?

[Optional]

Early position opens with 3xBB with pocket aces

Button calls with 9 10 clubs and everyone else folds.

Flop comes 3c 7c 5h.

Aces bets about 1/3 of pot and gets called.

Ac on the turn.

Aces bets about half the pot and button with nut flush comes back all in.

It's for tourney life, near big stack, or to be left with about 8xbb if you fold.

What should aces do?



And players dont know much about each other.

[Triple_D_Bet]

Hard to say with how you've got it worded opti; does the AA player know opponent has a flush? How big is the reraise in terms of BBs? What are stack sizes relative to pot? What's blind structure? How close to bubble? What's payout structure?

Needs to be a bit more specific, but assuming the set knows the flush is there on the turn, it's mostly a question of pot odds. If it's an SBR tourney or another one where my time is more valuable than the prize, I'd probably call and see what happens; worst case I'm out and saved time. Wouldn't be the right move poker-wise though.

As played, AA probably should have bet twice as much on flop...weak bet made it easy to call on flush draw alone. If positive flush draw is only thing calling flop, maybe check/call turn if it's reasonable enough (and because many people in position will check their flush to try to get river action, so might see boat for free).

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, would like to know a little bit more about Stacks behind. If AA calls the All-in, what Calling Odds is he getting?

If he's catching more than +300, I think it's a trivial Call. B/c u still have 10 outs on the River to boat-up.

If it's shorter than that, trickier. Can AA put Opponent on Flush w/ 100% certainty? If not, u error on the side of Calling.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I've been in similar situation. Got myself in bad situation where I called 3-bet, w/ me holding QT(spades).

By river, board was AKQT5. I had 2-pair, but I knew this board smacked the Raiser. He was scared off by river. I could "rep" the Jack much better than Raiser. But I didn't go for the River bluff. At end of the day...I just felt like he would look at his hand, see AAA and not be able to fold.

He did in fact have AAA, and it got checked down. My experience is that players (justifiably) have hard time laying down Sets. U want to be SURE that you're beat. Normally, it's going to take 4Diamonds or 4Contiguous Straight Cards (like 6789) for a guy to lay down a Set. In back of your mind, u have to be thinking about whether opponent just has 2pair (or bluffing).

[Triple_D_Bet]

Opti, would like to know a little bit more about Stacks behind. If AA calls the All-in, what Calling Odds is he getting?

If he's catching more than +300, I think it's a trivial Call. B/c u still have 10 outs on the River to boat-up.

If it's shorter than that, trickier. Can AA put Opponent on Flush w/ 100% certainty? If not, u error on the side of Calling.

After AA bet there's about 18 BB in pot; 3:1 would require flush's all in bet is 18 BB total (12 BB to win the 36 in pot for AA). However, call is certainly not trivial; a lot more goes into consideration in tournament than + or - EV like it would in a cash game.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, I finished 3rd on Sunday Nite in Online tournament. Pretty happy w/ my play. Got it in good, most of the time.

But man, did I DONK off chips late. U have to see the piece of cheddar I played on this hand:

* Cutoff raiser. I call from BB w/ AJ(o).

Flop is A52 w/ two Hearts. Note: I don't have a Heart.

Pretty good, I call. Turn is 3rd heart. I lead out w/ a small probing bet. I'm the one who is SUPPOSED to be on a draw. Raiser is SUPPOSED to have Ax. He meekly calls.

River is a low-brick. Opponent has 1/2-pot behind. I put him All-in. I figure that I MIGHT get him to lay down slightly better Ax (especially if he doesn't hold a Heart).

He calls. I was betting his hand for him! He had K8(hearts) for made flush.

[RisingDough]

Early position opens with 3xBB with pocket aces

Button calls with 9 10 clubs and everyone else folds.

Flop comes 3c 7c 5h.

Aces bets about 1/3 of pot and gets called.

Ac on the turn.

Aces bets about half the pot and button with nut flush comes back all in.

It's for tourney life, near big stack, or to be left with about 8xbb if you fold.

What should aces do?



And players dont know much about each other.

First thing you should learn from this is to have a plan. When considering betting the turn you should already have in mind that you are gonna bet/call or bet/fold. You don't want to be in a spot where you bet...and then question what to do after opponent reacts.

As played more info is needed like how many people left, how many cash and what are the prizes. What is your skill level relative to your table. What are the blinds. How many chips will you have left if you fold.

Regardless of the outcome you can always go back and learn from the hand. What hands were you targeting for value on the flop? Why did you choose 1/3 pot size on the flop....what range do you put him on when he calls your flop bet? What are you targeting for value on the turn? Why did you choose 1/2 pot size bet?

Always learn and don't be results oriented...think about all the hands he could possibly have and what you should do against that range.


RD

[Optional]

You're in a tourney that pays top 30 with about $500 for the winner. maybe 90 left i think. Think the limits were around 150/300 30.

I think Aces started with 5000-6000 chips and button had him covered.

I think aces would have been left with 1500-2000 if he folded.

I dont know how well they knew each other, I'd just come to the table.


I believed the button had the flush. Only way he didnt was if he was a huge donk I thought.



Honestly though, all this other stuff wasn't meant to be part of the question posed. I gave you all the info i wanted you to have.

Just wanted to know if folding aces was ever a good play in that spot, as whilst sitting between them I expected both had the exact hands they had and thought to myself that I would have badly badly wanted to fold those aces but wasnt sure if 10 outs was enough to make it a no option play.


@Rd, agree the aces played it weak... but who knows why that was? Maybe he had just had 2 other premium hands earn nothing before I arrived. Not really part of my interest in the hand.

Just want to know if there is an obvious call/fold option for the aces guy once in this spot.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, that's why I was asking about STacks behind. If you're saying that he would be Calling roughly ~ 2000 to win 8000-chip pot...then he HAS to call.

10 outs means...he wins on 10 cards, loses on 34 cards. So, +400 odds is a profitable call...EVEN vs Nut-flush. The last action would be about a +18% call.

OFTEN TIMES...players don't understand that the bet-size has to be HUGE...in order for player to not have proper calling odds.

It's not about being AHEAD. It's about catching the right odds.

[Optional]

I don't really recall the exact numbers Chucky.

But 4/1 seems about right. So I'd guess it was line ball from memory.

Or does Aces still need to take into account the button might just be drawing or have a lower set maybe... even if he feels sure its already a made flush.

[Triple_D_Bet]

You're in a tourney that pays top 30 with about $500 for the winner. maybe 90 left i think. Think the limits were around 150/300 30.

I think Aces started with 5000-6000 chips and button had him covered.

I think aces would have been left with 1500-2000 if he folded.

I dont know how well they knew each other, I'd just come to the table.


I believed the button had the flush. Only way he didnt was if he was a huge donk I thought.



Honestly though, all this other stuff wasn't meant to be part of the question posed. I gave you all the info i wanted you to have.

Just wanted to know if folding aces was ever a good play in that spot, as whilst sitting between them I expected both had the exact hands they had and thought to myself that I would have badly badly wanted to fold those aces but wasnt sure if 10 outs was enough to make it a no option play.


@Rd, agree the aces played it weak... but who knows why that was? Maybe he had just had 2 other premium hands earn nothing before I arrived. Not really part of my interest in the hand.

Just want to know if there is an obvious call/fold option for the aces guy once in this spot.

For tournaments, the extra information is essential. It's not a cash hand where you look at pot odds and figure out a call; you have to think of how it affects your ability to place in the tournament. It's not just about catching the right odds in any given hand, it's about making the most $$ in the tournament, which are often two different things (especially when you're facing a decision that could bust you). Personally, I'd call, but largely because it seems to be a low stakes tourney and I'd value my time enough to go big or go home.

As played and that far from cashing, and how weak the rest of table is, a call and hope to suckout might be the right move...modified by how likely you think it is that other guy is holding flush or straight. As stated above, weak bet on flop made it easier for flush or straight to get there, but if he bets turn he has to plan on calling a shove. As RD notes, this is why you want to have a plan before making actions; if you're going to fold to the shove, probably not worth betting the turn when you might be able to see a free card (letting him see a free card being unimportant if you've already decided he has you beat on turn).

[Optional]

You're right about the extra info being important. I just didnt have much. Happened as I arrived at the table. But i get the import now.

Not betting the turn at all if not prepared to call makes sense to me. That's one I need to remind myself of anyway.

The Aces did call and lose, in case that wasn't obvious already.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, good thread. But that's my point.

A Set is that strong of a holding. If u get to Turn w/ a Set and feel like your opponent may have a Flush, check out the Pot Odds.

Example: I had JJ, flopped a Set of Jacks. I bet flop to build pot. Turn was a 3rd Heart, I check, Opponent bets to steal the pot. Opponent bet 45, pot was now 135. I was catching +300 odds on a Call.

If Opponent specifically had a Flush, I would be getting 90-cents on the Dollar. I called, he did NOT have a Flush. I win.

My point is this. It's HARD to make a Flush. 5Diamonds in a 7-card pool? Not at all ez to make a flush. Opponent might have 2pair. Or even a combo-draw, like Pair+FlushDraw. My point is that you don't want to CONCEDE opponent's flush too easily.

There are also situations where opponent might be REPPING a flush. If he has Ace (Diamond), he has a Nut-blocker. IE, YOU can't have a flush...and they can REPRESENT a Flush.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Opti, here's the hand that came to mind. It's hard to lay down Set on Turn. It would have to be a huge overbet so that you're not catching Fair Odds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyTzvilac2Q

DNeg does play this tricky. But understand that an Opponent CAN have a strong hand like 2pair w/ the Nut-blocker.

[RudyRuetigger]

bet more on flop

[RudyRuetigger]

bet more on flop

or check flop...but 1/3 is a horrible bet size

[Optional]

or check flop...but 1/3 is a horrible bet size

I was wondering if he could have bet it better too but realized pretty much whatever he did, apart from push all in, was very likely to be called with 2 over cards, backdoor str8 and flush draws.

And if he checked it, and got a check back, then he's still going to bet the 3rd Ace on turn and have the button come back over the top anyway.

His smaller bets kind of opened up the option to fold, that would not have been there otherwise. Maybe that is just a case of bad play working out though I guess.

[RudyRuetigger]

I was wondering if he could have bet it better too but realized pretty much whatever he did, apart from push all in, was very likely to be called with 2 over cards, backdoor str8 and flush draws.

And if he checked it, and got a check back, then he's still going to bet the 3rd Ace on turn and have the button come back over the top anyway.

His smaller bets kind of opened up the option to fold, that would not have been there otherwise. Maybe that is just a case of bad play working out though I guess.

that is being results oriented though

either the guy caught a piece of the flop or didn't. being a draw heavy board, id bet.

if he continues with 1/3, he will continue with 70% bet

[RudyRuetigger]

Hard to say with how you've got it worded opti; does the AA player know opponent has a flush? How big is the reraise in terms of BBs? What are stack sizes relative to pot? What's blind structure? How close to bubble? What's payout structure?

Needs to be a bit more specific, but assuming the set knows the flush is there on the turn, it's mostly a question of pot odds. If it's an SBR tourney or another one where my time is more valuable than the prize, I'd probably call and see what happens; worst case I'm out and saved time. Wouldn't be the right move poker-wise though.

As played, AA probably should have bet twice as much on flop...weak bet made it easy to call on flush draw alone. If positive flush draw is only thing calling flop, maybe check/call turn if it's reasonable enough (and because many people in position will check their flush to try to get river action, so might see boat for free).

I didn't read thread before my post...exactly

[RudyRuetigger]

You're in a tourney that pays top 30 with about $500 for the winner. maybe 90 left i think. Think the limits were around 150/300 30.

I think Aces started with 5000-6000 chips and button had him covered.

I think aces would have been left with 1500-2000 if he folded.

I dont know how well they knew each other, I'd just come to the table.


I believed the button had the flush. Only way he didnt was if he was a huge donk I thought.



Honestly though, all this other stuff wasn't meant to be part of the question posed. I gave you all the info i wanted you to have.

Just wanted to know if folding aces was ever a good play in that spot, as whilst sitting between them I expected both had the exact hands they had and thought to myself that I would have badly badly wanted to fold those aces but wasnt sure if 10 outs was enough to make it a no option play.


@Rd, agree the aces played it weak... but who knows why that was? Maybe he had just had 2 other premium hands earn nothing before I arrived. Not really part of my interest in the hand.

Just want to know if there is an obvious call/fold option for the aces guy once in this spot.

given all this, and without working all math out

id say 1/2 pot on flop is best