Roger Clemens

[moses millsap]

With the Rocket coming back, something came to mind. I remember late in the season last year, there were reports that both Damon and Clemens were going to be identified as two were tested positive for steroids, but that never came out or was put back under the table.

Do you think Clemens was/or is on the juice? And if he were chasing a pitching record on par with the HR record, would the media crucify him like they are doing with Bonds? I don't think so.

[Mudcat]

Never gave it much thought until now. On giving it some thought, I voted yes. What can I say? I'm a cynical SOB these days.

As for this question: if he were chasing a pitching record on par with the HR record, would the media crucify him like they are doing with Bonds?

I think the answer is no. It's very different case. Bonds is totally busted. At the moment, Clemens has only been the subject of a few National Enquirer-esque whisperings.

[Willie Bee]

I think there are plenty members of the media who would not hesitate one New York minute going after Roger Clemens with poison pen. There were plenty of articles this week coming down on him just for his latest coming out of retirement party --- see Tom Verducci of SI, Stephen Smith of the Philadelphia Inquirer, Tom Dybas of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and Jeff Passan of Yahoo! Sports. I didn't even bother checking for all of the on-line articles from New York's finest.

As for whether or not Clemens used steroids, I've got no idea. I suspect that a lot of players in the last 10-15 years have at least tried such products, be it to help them recover from an injury qucker or just out of curiosity. My stance on the issue has never changed: Using steroids was not the crime, in my opinion. How long it took for baseball to stop pulling an ostrich act, remove their heads from burrowed ground and correct the problem, that was the crime.

[bigboydan]

there have been conspiracy theory's surrounding this one for a while now. it kinda reminds me of the Jordan suspension one.

i guess one could come that that conclusion, although i doubt there was one.

[moses millsap]

My stance on the issue has never changed: Using steroids was not the crime, in my opinion. How long it took for baseball to stop pulling an ostrich act, remove their heads from burrowed ground and correct the problem, that was the crime.

Totally agree WB. I was just going to type that after my smoke break. I've grown so tired of the steroids issue that I haven't been following as closely as I should, but isn't it true that when Bonds, intentionally or unintentionally, put that stuff in his body that it was not against MLB rules. It all started with Mac and Sosa and I place the majority of the blame on Selig for turning his head the other way and letting this get out of control.

I don't see a real, distinguishable difference between Bonds and Giambi at all. Sure, Jason admitted it in public and Bonds continues to deny, while the majority of us probably do not believe Barry, but the bottom line is that they both used it. Actions speak louder than words.

[Seattle Slew]

Being a Red Sox fan, I'm no fan of Clemens. He goes where the money is. But I'm just jealous that he's getting $22 million for 4 months of work. The whole Clemens family should never have to work another day in their life.

I'd say no way this guy did steroids. He was a skinny kid when he broke in, but his weight gains appear very natural over the years. Very slow progression. Not like he's all muscles.

[SBR_John]

Roger IS the juice, I don't think he is anything other than what he has always been: dominant

Saying that, I would look to fade him if he is carrying -190 & up. He will probably end up 6-6 with an avg ERA I'd guess maybe 4.60. IMO he is not worth a heavy chalk number.

[Willie Bee]

But I'm just jealous that he's getting $22 million for 4 months of work.

Actually, it's a $22 million deal that will be prorated to $12+ million from late June through the end of the regular season. If his first start is on June 22nd, as predicted, the Astros will have 90 games left at that point. That would work out to 55% of the season, and 55% of the $22 million would work out to $12,222,222.22 ... don't think that is just some arbitrary number or coincidence since he wears #22 with Houston.

[onlooker]

I agree with you John. I remember last year Clemens had a great ERA, but the Astros never gave him run support. Something to think about.

I dont know if he was or wasnt on roids. He has been a dominat force at the pitcher position for sometime now. Maybe roids helped him heal faster, and not with muscle mass?

Selig turned his head to see that Homerun chase happen between Mac and Sosa. Hell, Selig probably shot them up with the stuff. So baseball could get back to where it use to be before the strike. That homerun battle brought many fans back, because it was exciting to watch. Wasnt Griffey battling for a few months that year to?? I cant remember.

Im just getting sick of hearing about all the steroid stuff on TV. Things will iron them selfs out. Players will goof up and get caught more these days.

And about them tearing into Bonds and not Giambi. Not many like Bonds to begin with, so this just fuels their fire.

[onlooker]

Oh yeah. I voted yes. Because I find it sick that someone is going to get paid $22 million for 3 months of service. Hell, he is only going to start what? 20 some odd times?

[tacomax]

Oh yeah. I voted yes. Because I find it sick that someone is going to get paid $22 million for 3 months of service. Hell, he is only going to start what? 20 some odd times?

Actually, it's a $22 million deal that will be prorated to $12+ million from late June through the end of the regular season. If his first start is on June 22nd, as predicted, the Astros will have 90 games left at that point. That would work out to 55% of the season, and 55% of the $22 million would work out to $12,222,222.22 ... don't think that is just some arbitrary number or coincidence since he wears #22 with Houston.

[onlooker]

22 or 12. I still feel the same way.

Maybe I could live with him making 2 Million.

[presley177]

I'd say it's very possible...but then again I've heard he's the hardest working player by far in the majors as far as his routine goes. His routine puts Bonds,Sheffield and others to shame supposedly.

[Willie Bee]

Two more instances of the media giving Clemens a hard time about this starting with John Kruk. I like Kruk, think I could have a good time shooting the sh!t with Kruk over a few beers. But he gave Clemens crap the other night, saying it sent the wrong signal and could bring the game down a notch or two because other guys might want to try signing in June to escape spring drills.

I understand part of what Kruk is saying. But Kruk needs to remember that he QUIT on a team, not only in the middle of the season but the middle of a frickin' game! Got a hit in the 1st-inning of his final game (30Jul95), was left stranded on 3B playing for the ChiSox, and that was it. He was replaced at DH by Frank Thomas and was gone before the game was over so he could make sure and end his career with a .300 average. Don't see much difference in deciding to retire in the middle of a season and deciding to play after a season starts.

Matt James, a writer for Scripps, penned the following. A pretty good example of how Clemens gets beat up often. He's not a well-liked player in the game, and his demeanor on the field that reminds me some of Don Drysdale brings a lot of the animosity on himself. The media is also tired of reporting on steroids and Bonds, so they need to find something or someone else to kick a little.

Me? I'm biased towards my Astros. I hope he wins every dadgum one of his 18 starts, shoves it down all those people whining about him right now, and leads Houston back into the postseason and beyond. And the reference like 'the whole Texas thing' has been known to raise my bristles in the past a time or two.

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/baseball/article/0,1406,KNS_318_4746040,00.html
Clemens comeback shames baseball
By Matt James / June 1, 2006 --- Whatever you're doing now, that's what you were doing when it happened.

This is where you were when Roger Clemens ruined baseball. Or at least swung his mighty ax at the tree trunk of everything that is good and holy in the game.

(If you had to pick a human to play Paul Bunyan for a made-for-TV movie, wouldn't it have to be Clemens? He's got the look. And the whole Texas thing is only helping.)

On Wednesday, Clemens signed with the Houston Astros, unretiring for what seems like the 17th time. He is KISS, on the never-ending last hurrah, which makes you wonder if he really wants to keep playing, or just doesn't know what else to do.

The Astros certainly made it worth another reunion tour. Assuming Clemens makes his way through the minors quickly, he'll make more than $12 million for the rest of the season, which is a couple of million short of what Florida makes as a team.

And at least the Marlins showed up for the first two months of the season. Sort of. The same couldn't be said for Clemens, or for Marlins fans, now that you mention it. (Averaging 11,700 seat-fillers per game thus far.)

He didn't have to go to spring training, didn't have to wear out his arm trying to win games in April and May, got to choose his team, and now they're going to pay him $600,000 per start.

It remains to be seen whether this someday will be a horrific act, the start of something terrible, the cheapening of the game - if you can possibly cheapen something with that much money - or just something weird that happened once upon a time, like the Gary Hart presidential campaign.

It just doesn't feel right.

Picture us in front of our junior high school watching Clemens creep toward the front door with a crow bar and a case of Charmin. Uhhh, Roger, we've been thinking, and maybe this isn't such a good idea.

Houston isn't in first place, by any means, but if it were 10 games under .500, Clemens wouldn't be going there, no matter what organization his son was in. He wants to win a World Series.

So why now? Why not wait until mid-September and join the Yankees? Just thinking about it makes you want to take a shower with Lava soap and a wire brush.

What's to keep every superstar from extending his career this way? How many years could Clemens have played if he never played more than two months per season? (It's the Kerry Wood/Mark Prior theory, currently in the testing phase.)

What if Dan Marino had joined the Rams halfway through the 1999 season, just to win a Super Bowl? Would he have wanted to do it that way? Would it make his career any more worthy?

Clemens has had a Hall of Fame career, but the championship chasing doesn't seem right, no matter how well he pitches. In 2003, what was supposed to be Clemens' last season, they pulled Barry Zito and added him to the All-Star Game at the last minute, even though the fans and a coach didn't think he deserved it. He pitched an inning and the crowd gave him a huge ovation, congratulating him for his 300th win and 4,000th strikeout. It was a nice ending.

That was 40 wins and 500 strikeouts ago. Wonder if those people feel silly?

Maybe it will be a one-time thing, an oddity for a sports-trivia show, or maybe, just maybe, we'll look back and wonder where we were when it started, when they stopped calling traveling in the NBA or introduced the designated-hitter rule.

For now, if the Astros win the World Series, they should leave a stone or two out of Clemens' ring. He didn't earn all of it.

[goldengoat]

i agreed with jose conseco when he first started making his claims and most of the media brushed him off as a jackass with an axe to grind who don't know wtf he was talkin about

he may be a jackass for naming names and being a snitch but those same reporters were taking their foot out of their mouths a bit later and got on their soapboxes and acted like they were leading the charge from the start

too much money in baseball....people are gonna juice

they are finding ways around it or developing new ways to get an advantage as we speak

i makes me sick that the media is making bonds out to be this villain when probably half of mlb was on something at the time

baseball management screwed up and now they have scapegoats like bonds who are taking most of the heat

even though he "cheated"....it's really a much lesser degree of cheating cause half the league was doing it also

i don't have a strong belief on clemens but it would not suprise me 1 bit if he did cause he did put on some weight later in his career

[SBR_John]

i don't have a strong belief on clemens but it would not suprise me 1 bit if he did cause he did put on some weight later in his career

This is a tough crowd and Willie saying they should take out a few stones from his world series ring if they win because he was not there for the full season?

Guys, this is a legit 2nd ballot Hall of Famer! He is throwing like he has always thrown...hard. Just like Nolan did into his late 40's.

[Willie Bee]

This is a tough crowd and Willie saying they should take out a few stones from his world series ring if they win because he was not there for the full season?

John, those aren't my words about removing a stone or two from his ring. That's from the article I posted.

He should be in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, in fact, there shouldn't even be a need for voting, just enshrine the man at Cooperstown once he does stay retired for five years.

[Mudcat]

He should be in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, in fact, there shouldn't even be a need for voting, just enshrine the man at Cooperstown once he does stay retired for five years.

Gee I dunno. He's only got 7 Cy Youngs. Maybe if he had 8 or 9 . . .

Just kidding of course. It's hard to imagine a more sure lock for the Hall.

[onlooker]

Thats not at all a bad idea. If the Astros by some crazy chance won the World Series, removing a few diamonds out of Clemens ring would be a good idea. Maybe the amount of starts he missed? Or months?

[Illusion]

Oh yeah. I voted yes. Because I find it sick that someone is going to get paid $22 million for 3 months of service. Hell, he is only going to start what? 20 some odd times?

He will only see about $12 million of that contract since it was prorated.

As far as roids, maybe he was in his younger days, but doubt he does anymore.

[onlooker]

He will only see about $12 million of that contract since it was prorated.

Maybe if you read the whole thread, you will see that tacomax pointed that out already. And I said it doesnt matter if it was 22 or 12.

22 or 12. I still feel the same way.

As far as roids, maybe he was in his younger days, but doubt he does anymore.

Also, if you think he did in his younger days, why did you vote no?

[isetcap]

This is a tough crowd and Willie saying they should take out a few stones from his world series ring if they win because he was not there for the full season?

Guys, this is a legit 2nd ballot Hall of Famer! He is throwing like he has always thrown...hard. Just like Nolan did into his late 40's.

2nd ballot?!?! Clemens could rape the mother of everyone that votes, shoot up some steroids in front of a congressional hearing, and place wagers against the Astros under the name of Roger Clemens and he would still be a 1st ballot HOF.

[Willie Bee]

One thing's for certain, he could've picked a better team than the Astros who have lost four straight since the announcement.

tacomax, get ready for the unthinkable just a few weeks ago: Houston as 'Dogs of the Week' for two straight weeks

[Blister]

Blister votes yes cause Blister says you can count on one hand the ball players who never used steriods.

[Illusion]

Blister votes yes cause Blister says you can count on one hand the ball players who never used steriods.

Why does Blister always talk in 3rd person? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm just curious.