Betfair introduces 20% tax on winning players

[Scorpion]

their new "Premium Charge" policy... details here.

Quote:

Premium Charge Summary

You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the previous 60 weeks, you satisfy the following criteria:

Your account is in profit;
Your total charges paid are less than 20% of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.

Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.

In other words, Betfair is of the opinion that 20% of your winnings rightfully belong to them. If your account shows profit over the last year, and the total commission you have paid is less than 20% of those winnings, Betfair will steal money from your account to make up for the difference.

Every week that your account turns a profit, Betfair will deduct 20% from your winnings until charges paid equals or exceeds 20% of your net winnings over the last 60 weeks.

[fiveteamer]

times are tough.

[treece]

Is this a joke? I thought the -110 was a tax.

[InTheHole]

Are you kidding me?

[Brady2Moss]

I think the online gaming industry is about to collapse... That could save many of us.

[treece]

Doesn't BetFair make enough money?

[durito]

welcome to 3 weeks ago

[ldrapeau]

much less value - they will lose many customers to matchbook - this is obvious proof that they are not an exchange "only" but rather a book that offers exchange - the little delay you get at each bet is to allow the house to profit from your trade if they decide so. Use them as a last resort if you have no other option.

[bettilimbroke999]

That's some fukin BULLSHIT right there. I live in US so I can't play at the euro books but that's a fukin joke for those that play there. Are they applying this garbage retroactively, like based on your previous 60 weeks BEFORE this rule was started or starting now and moving 60 weeks forward? Sounds like everybody that is up at Betfair needs to open up a new account or they're gonna get fuked. They actually came up with a rule if you are up over the last year you have to give them 20% of what you won, fukin greedy motherfukers

[treece]

Everyone should stop playing there. Also a downgrade is a good idea.

[acw]

Best thing BetFair has done in years and so does the best gambler in the world think of it:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/09/09/betfair_where_winners_have_jus.html

At least one of Betfair's winners, though, took a different view. "It's the best news I've had for ages, as it's not going to cost me a penny," Harry Findlay, professional punter and owner of Denman, said. "I'm a gambler, so the way I bet, it won't make a difference. The people who will be screaming will be the maths professors with computer models, the ones who just never lose. If they clear off, it should be even easier for me to make money."

[gm2022]

Wow what a Price to pay, to gamble! This is like if Casinos Charged a Gate
Fee of 5 bucks a person! Cold Shit

[I.R.B]

Everyone should stop playing there. Also a downgrade is a good idea.

Agreed...

[MonkeyF0cker]

So they want to lose liquidity and reward the retards? Brilliant. That's how you lose profit. Not gain it...

[JBC77]

If you have a Betfair account you should let your wallet speak for you........by removing all your funds from that crap hole.

[Mudcat]

I really thought that had to a hoax when I read the first post. I was expecting a series of replies shooting down scorpion.

Apparently not.

Dreadful. Ridiculous.

[pico]

europeans are silly. pinny will eat up some market shares.

[Santo]

It doesn't really affect gamblers a great deal because of the way it works, I had them check my results and I wouldn't have paid it (and I'm a winning player there -- I just have big wins and big losses so the total commission gets up there). What it does impact are the in-running traders, but they have problems moving because the liquidity provided by the gamblers just doesn't exist anywhere else.

[pico]

It doesn't really affect gamblers a great deal because of the way it works, I had them check my results and I wouldn't have paid it (and I'm a winning player there -- I just have big wins and big losses so the total commission gets up there). What it does impact are the in-running traders, but they have problems moving because the liquidity provided by the gamblers just doesn't exist anywhere else.

are you saying there will be much less liquidity for live betting?

[BAUS]

Wow what a Price to pay, to gamble! This is like if Casinos Charged a Gate
Fee of 5 bucks a person! Cold Shit

Lol. Some casinos in Europe do exactly that. They charge 5 Euro entrance fee.

BAUS

[Santo]

are you saying there will be much less liquidity for live betting?

Possibly, but only if the people who are making a living from it all move en mass. The problem is people can't afford to move if there's no liquidity at the new place (Purple), so the question is whether any of the big players will move together. If they do, everyone will move to Purple, if they don't BF will win and get their 20%.

[APK]

Possibly, but only if the people who are making a living from it all move en mass. The problem is people can't afford to move if there's no liquidity at the new place (Purple), so the question is whether any of the big players will move together. If they do, everyone will move to Purple, if they don't BF will win and get their 20%.

Do you mean betdaq with 'purple' ?
Betdaq offers a 2% commission rate till the end of the year if you mail them.

Liquidity is not brilliant on smaller leagues, but it's okay with the bigger matches.

[Santo]

Yes BetDaq. Sorry everyone calls it Purple in conversation around here

[APK]

Yes BetDaq. Sorry everyone calls it Purple in conversation around here

Ah, okay, thanks.
Have to eat my words though, liquidity is not that good.

Betis - Real Madrid

Betfair: 620.000 matched
Betdaq: 25.500 matched.

[Arilou]

I think the biggest problem with this "premium charge" is that it destroys the incentives of the large accounts. Previously, you knew that betting more money at Betfair was a good thing for you, all things being equal: Your 5% fee at the start might be high but raising your volume resulted in a lower fee not only on your current wager but on all other wagers, thus your marginal commission (which is the commission that matters) could be 2% or possibly even lower.

This nukes that for anyone who might qualify. As you bet more and in more markets, you invoke the new rules, which means that you pay the higher of that rate and 20% of winnings. It's hard for someone to have 5% equity on wagers, thus making 20% of their winnings more than 2% of their individual market winnings in terms of e.v., but it is very easy to invoke this due to variance. Every player will have good and bad runs and a hold of 5% is highly probable at some point for anyone who isn't throwing their money away.

The implication for this, of course, is that you should count your markets. You can bet in 4 markets a week without invoking the fee, and any account that might hit the fee has a HUGE incentive to not do so, either by evading it (switch accounts) or playing elsewhere. The incentives created are terrible for BetFair on any account that might hit the barrier, and even worse if you are about to - the last wager made for someone at the threshold, for example, looks awful, or someone who if they win will start to make "Too Much Money."

The theory, as I understand it, is that they're only taxing the players who are winning and you only get taxed if you win so those involved should STFU and GBTW, but I think the threat of this tax is more toxic than they realize (or than many punters will realize either at first). The problem with trying to soak the rich is that they tend to be the smart ones.

[acw]

First of all I find it amazing to see how many attack BetFair that are surely not effected by it. Second nobody seems to understand what BetFair is really after! The direct extra commission BetFair will make out of this is very little! Indirectly they just want to get rid of the traders in order to please straight gamblers like Harry. And trust me in the end everyone except the traders will be better off.

[Justin7]

This is a horrendous rule for recs and pros alike. If the pros go, you'll have less liquidity. Recreational players will lose faster, since they have to take worse numbers.

[Wheell]

This is absurdly bad on many levels. In many ways this looks like a monopoly tax. I hope their market position isn't as strong as they think it is.

[pico]

why get rid of the traders? are the dealers at betfair so bad that traders are making a killing?

[durito]

I'd much rather have this and the 0% income tax brits pay on winnings than piss away 40% to the us govt every year.

[Poker_Beast]

F------

[Kindred]

europeans are silly.

[SBR Lou]

Are they applying this garbage retroactively, like based on your previous 60 weeks BEFORE this rule was started or starting now and moving 60 weeks forward?

No deductions are being made retroactively; they'll use your previous 60 weeks to determine if you meet the criteria going forward but they won't tax winnings from the past.

[bettilimbroke999]

No deductions are being made retroactively; they'll use your previous 60 weeks to determine if you meet the criteria going forward but they won't tax winnings from the past.

Either way it's fukin terrible. Betfair just created one of the most complicated/greediest rules a book ever came up with and rest assured it's designed to screw the winners. I'm already on the verge of giving this up if a book I was winning at told me they were going to tax me 20% on my winnings it'd be the best thing ever happened to me, I'd turn off my computer and quit right then.

[englishmike]

lol But not half as funny as the moneygram lines and Bodog stories we read on here. If getting paid within a day is silly, I'm happy to be silly.