How many games will the Tigers infield cost them this year???

[stevenash]

I can see Porcello losing a few games on a routine double play ball to third base get booted for a two base error.

Prince has as much range at first as John Candy, that infield is death on defense.

[HotStreak]

With V-Mart out for the season there is a lot of room for Fielder or Miggy to DH.

[Chi_archie]

not many, defense is over-rated, especially at the two corner infield positions

[No coincidences]

not many, defense is over-rated, especially at the two corner infield positions

Well, it's overrated when you have Miggy and Prince in the middle of your lineup to make up for it offensively.

[stevenash]

not many, defense is over-rated, especially at the two corner infield positions

Defense is not overrated, corner infield you can cut corners, yes, but you need good up the middle defense, especially if your staff is made up of ground ball inducing type starters.

1984 Tigers won with great up the middle defense, Trammel, Whitaker, Lemon, Parrish...

You think Petry wins 18 games with shitty defense?
You think Wilcox wins 17 that season without infield help?

Whitaker, Trammel and Parrish all won Gold Gloves that year, and I still can't figure out how Dwayne Murphy won a Gold Glove over Chet Lemon. That was a travesty

[Chi_archie]

I agree on the up the middle defense.

great example with the 84 Tigers, but it was about 2 years before my baseball fandom so I can't comment on that situation. Who were their first and third basemen that year?

Defense in baseball is such a weird thing, on one hand it is in my mind over-rated, but at the same time I can see how at times it was the area where the market was inefficient for MLB after people caught onto OBP>BA ect and offensive sabermetrics.

So I think i'll take back the over-rated part in some sense, and just say that the value of a elite offensive player at>>>the value of the greatest defensive 1bmen ever.

similarly a very good offensive player will trump any runs he gives up as a very bad defensive player in almost all situations.

[No coincidences]

I agree on the up the middle defense.

great example with the 84 Tigers, but it was about 2 years before my baseball fandom so I can't comment on that situation. Who were their first and third basemen that year?

Defense in baseball is such a weird thing, on one hand it is in my mind over-rated, but at the same time I can see how at times it was the area where the market was inefficient for MLB after people caught onto OBP>BA ect and offensive sabermetrics.

So I think i'll take back the over-rated part in some sense, and just say that the value of a elite offensive player at>>>the value of the greatest defensive 1bmen ever.

similarly a very good offensive player will trump any runs he gives up as a very bad defensive player in almost all situations.

Tommy Brookens and Dave Bergman I think.

[cadillac pete]

They are so weak defensivley on the corners.

[Smoke]

Doesn't matter when you can put up as many runs as the tigers will

[stevenash]

Ho-Jo and Brookens platooned at third.

Sparky, I don't want to say hated Ho-Jo, like Pinella hated O'Neil, but Sparky didn't like the way Ho-Jo played third, he was raw. he didn't really suck, he was just raw.

Sparky and GM LaJoie got into a lot of fights over Ho-Jo, LaJoie was like give the kid a chance, he's got Hall of Fame potential, Sparky didn't like the way Johnson played third, crept in as to take bunts away and such.........
Sparky never liked kids that much anyway, but know this, LaJoie built that team for Sparky.

side note, LaJoie didn't want to trade Ho-Jo, Sparky didn't want to play him, they did make a good deal at the end of '84, Walt Terrell for Howard Johnson straight up, we all know what Ho-Jo did in '86

[Chi_archie]

sounds like they had some. But butchers on the corners

[opie1988]

I can see Porcello losing a few games on a routine double play ball to third base get booted for a two base error.
Prince has as much range at first as John Candy, that infield is death on defense.

Totally agree.

Tigers have ZERO chance at winning the pennant. Be lucky to even get in as a wildcard.

[Chi_archie]

Great value on the tigers futures IMHO, clear path unlike the al east

[stevenash]

Well if you think about it, how many truly great, I mean really great defensive third basemen were the in the history of the game.

Nettles, Schmidt, Brooks Robinson..........

[stevenash]

Totally agree.

Tigers have ZERO chance at winning the pennant. Be lucky to even get in as a wildcard.

Opie?
Let's not carried away, Verlander can carry them on his back, just saying they are going lose some games via error.

[blackbart]

defense is way under rated, especially at 3rd base. miggie will kill them at 3rd, so much so he wont last there long. The prince is no prize at 1st either

[Deuce]

Inge will play 3rd, Miggy and Prince will platoon at 1st and DH. Settle down, everyone.

[stevenash]

Inge better save a lot of runs at third, because that buck ninety-seven batting average is going to strand a ton of runners.

[Deuce]

Inge better save a lot of runs at third, because that buck ninety-seven batting average is going to strand a ton of runners.

He is clutch when he needs to be. Inge can't do much worse.

[HoulihansTX]

They will be the Brewers on defense. Remember Casey Mcghee @ 3rd base? They will be fine, Verlander and scherzer pitching. But when Porcello pitches....

[blackbart]

i just heard leyland saying miggie will play 3rd

[EXhoosier10]

Defense is not overrated, corner infield you can cut corners, yes, but you need good up the middle defense, especially if your staff is made up of ground ball inducing type starters.

How'd the Brewers do with that terrible defense of theirs last year?? Their offense was more than adequate. I'm sure their infield defense will not cost them anything.

[EXhoosier10]

They will be the Brewers on defense. Remember Casey Mcghee @ 3rd base? They will be fine, Verlander and scherzer pitching. But when Porcello pitches....

[antifoil]

i was watching the mlb channel's advanced stat show. he could cost them over 30 runs at 3rd base versus an average 3rd baseman.

to make up for it he will need to have an obp around .410.

[Chi_archie]

Porcello had a very high Bapip last year, I'd expect that to return/regress towards MLB average in 2012

[Chi_archie]

i was watching the mlb channel's advanced stat show. he could cost them over 30 runs at 3rd base versus an average 3rd baseman.

to make up for it he will need to have an obp around .410.

how many runs over or under the MLB average did the Tiger's rag tag group earn last year?

how did their combined OBP of .286 stack up against the MLB average 3rd sacker?

[antifoil]

inge was +2

[Chi_archie]

so inge cost them about half a game in offense (WAR) and gained them 2 runs in defense...


and Miggy can DROP .38 in OBP and break even based on projections, in his prime.

I don't see a real problem at third..

[antifoil]

i really don't know about that obp i said.

i remember them comparing some season pete rose had while playing at 3rd, but i don't remember the number of neg runs he gave up.

if i was to guess i think it was something like -17.

[Chi_archie]

Rose was like a career sub .400 OBP and sub .800 OPS

very over-rated

[milwaukee mike]

I can see Porcello losing a few games on a routine double play ball to third base get booted for a two base error.

Prince has as much range at first as John Candy, that infield is death on defense.

do you mean john candy before or after he died, either way that's about the range fielder has

[ebbearsfb1]

Let's ask opie how important defense in general for baseball? Does nelson cruz ring a bell ladies?

[antifoil]

yeah if leonys martin hit. i don't know why the ranger don't move hamilton to rf, martin in cf, and put cruz at 1st.

[zoo youk]

Fielder isnt nearly as bad as 1b as ppl make him out to be.

Theyll be fine theyll have to play the lines so doubles down the line dont beat them over n over.

Their 2b ss will need incredible range. Those two are the real key defensively