Heres what I dont understand about the end of that UNC-Tenn gm ........Am I right???

Double Bogey · 12-31-10, 01:14 PM

Yeah, need a smart coach to do that for them to put that 10 sec runoff in effect.

yisman · 12-31-10, 01:15 PM

in the NFL, there's a 10 second runoff to prevent these shenanigans

there should be in college as well. You shouldn't be allowed to spike and stop the clock, anyway, if you're not lined up legally.

Boscoe · 12-31-10, 01:15 PM

the ncaa is too busy considering having an excessive celebration penalty negate a touchdown.

Hotdiggity11 · 12-31-10, 01:15 PM

It's no real surprise though. College game rules are built towards giving the offense an advantage [Outside of the 15-yard penalty for pass interference] and thus situations like this come up.

LLXC · 12-31-10, 01:16 PM

Yup, you can game the system that way.

jgray · 12-31-10, 01:21 PM

I said the the same thing earlier. All you would need is the QB and center to be on the same page. Who cares what everyone else is doing. Even if the WR is still 40 yards down field. It doesn't matter based on these rules.

My prediction, unless there is a rule change in the off season, we will see this tactic at the end of games next season. We may even see it before the end of bowl season. Most coaches aren't very creative, but they tend to copy what works.

fjblair · 12-31-10, 02:02 PM

UT got f*****.

ttwarrior1 · 12-31-10, 02:10 PM

15 yard penalty would be better, not ten second runoff

pavyracer · 12-31-10, 02:13 PM

But if they enforce this rule then how are they going to be able to fix games at the end of games?

InTheRed · 12-31-10, 02:14 PM

The penalty was for too many men on the field. Not a false start, not illegal formation, not an illegal shift. Those penalties are what the NFL has the 10 second run-off rule.

A too many men penalty is different. There is no immediate whistle on the play. It essentially becomes a free play for the defense. It can be declined if there was a fumble or interception. Because of this, there is no way to do a 10 second run-off.

However, was that the right penalty to call in that situation? Of the 18 players on the field, at least 5 were moving at the time of the snap. That would be a illegal motion penalty.

The call on the field was for too many men. They reviewed it, as they should have, and got the right call on the play for the call they made.

There is no way to fix it with a 10 sec runoff. There is no way to use this penalty to your advantage. It was just an odd finish to the game.

jbrent95 · 12-31-10, 02:14 PM

I think the 10-second runoff is better than a 15-yard penalty.

Numenor80 · 12-31-10, 02:32 PM

The ten second runoff would be much more effective, b/c teams would only do something like this with less than 10 seconds.

jgray · 12-31-10, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by InTheRed

The penalty was for too many men on the field. Not a false start, not illegal formation, not an illegal shift. Those penalties are what the NFL has the 10 second run-off rule. A too many men penalty is different. There is no immediate whistle on the play. It essentially becomes a free play for the defense. It can be declined if there was a fumble or interception. Because of this, there is no way to do a 10 second run-off. However, was that the right penalty to call in that situation? Of the 18 players on the field, at least 5 were moving at the time of the snap. That would be a illegal motion penalty. The call on the field was for too many men. They reviewed it, as they should have, and got the right call on the play for the call they made. There is no way to fix it with a 10 sec runoff. There is no way to use this penalty to your advantage. It was just an odd finish to the game.

What about my post from above? Wouldn't that circumstance be to team's advantage? Without a 10 second runoff, what difference does it make what the penalty is? (assuming we are debating between two 5 yard penalties, illegal motion vs. too many men).

InTheRed · 12-31-10, 02:57 PM

Because the too many men penalty happens after the play is completed, unlike all the others which brings an instant whistle.

Coaches could do the penalties that bring the instant whistle to stop the clock before getting set or worrying about the man down the field. Because of this, there is the 10 second run off. And the game would be over.

This penalty was for too man men. It is a flag that is thrown at the start of the play and is not enforced until the play is over. This penalty is much like defensive offsides. Its a free play. If the offense gains more than 5 yards on the defensive offsides, they decline it. In the too many man penalty, the defense has the option to decline or accept the penalty depending on what happens in the play. If the QB was sacked for 8 yards, they would decline it.

The point everyone is missing in this thread is that for the penalty that was called on the play, the too many men penalty, it is enforced after the play is over. The QB spiked the ball with 1 second left. Then the penalty was enforced. There was no instant whistle. IT IS NOT A PRE PLAY PENALTY. That is the difference.

An offensive coach CAN NOT use this to his advantage. There needs to be a play run to get the penalty, hence he can't stop the clock prematurely.

jgray · 12-31-10, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by InTheRed

Because the too many men penalty happens after the play is completed, unlike all the others which brings an instant whistle. Coaches could do the penalties that bring the instant whistle to stop the clock before getting set or worrying about the man down the field. Because of this, there is the 10 second run off. And the game would be over. This penalty was for too man men. It is a flag that is thrown at the start of the play and is not enforced until the play is over. This penalty is much like defensive offsides. Its a free play. If the offense gains more than 5 yards on the defensive offsides, they decline it. In the too many man penalty, the defense has the option to decline or accept the penalty depending on what happens in the play. If the QB was sacked for 8 yards, they would decline it. The point everyone is missing in this thread is that for the penalty that was called on the play, the too many men penalty, it is enforced after the play is over. The QB spiked the ball with 1 second left. Then the penalty was enforced. There was no instant whistle. IT IS NOT A PRE PLAY PENALTY. That is the difference. An offensive coach CAN NOT use this to his advantage. There needs to be a play run to get the penalty, hence he can't stop the clock prematurely.

First, I can't tell from your posts, but you know there is no 10 second run off in college, right?

Second, in my hypothetical if only the center and the QB are on the line of scrimmage and the ball is snapped (and everyone else is still regardless of where they are on the field) wouldn't the penalty be for an illegal formation? And illegal formation is not a pre-snap penalty. Seems to me there's a way to game the system in my hypothetical.

E-ftw · 12-31-10, 03:09 PM

well rules will be changed soon and i bet they will look at that 1...

Skidcom · 12-31-10, 06:05 PM

All I know is that I am tired of being on the wrong of these controversies

chargers4222 · 12-31-10, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Boscoe

the ncaa is too busy considering having an excessive celebration penalty negate a touchdown.

it didn't negate the touchdown.....the td stood, they just backed the 2 pt try up 15 yards. but almost....almost

Cookie Monster · 12-31-10, 08:07 PM

Many penalties are made tor tactical reasons in sports. I do not see anyone complaining of faults on the last minute on basketball when the losing team needs the ball quickly. Other tactical penalties:

Football:
Linemen holding
Corner/safeties interference to prevent a touchdown.

Soccer:
Making a fault in a counterattack to stop the game and let the defense to get in place.

Basketball:
Last minute constant faults.
Defending Shaq

And many others...

QuantumLeap · 12-31-10, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by chargers4222

it didn't negate the touchdown.....the td stood, they just backed the 2 pt try up 15 yards. but almost....almost

The rule should be a penalty on the kickoff, not the conversion after a TD.

pavyracer · 12-31-10, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Cookie Monster

Many penalties are made tor tactical reasons in sports. I do not see anyone complaining of faults on the last minute on basketball when the losing team needs the ball quickly. Other tactical penalties:

Football:
Linemen holding
Corner/safeties interference to prevent a touchdown.

Soccer:
Making a fault in a counterattack to stop the game and let the defense to get in place.

Basketball:
Last minute constant faults.
Defending Shaq

And many others...

Let me tell you one thing about soccer. When the ref whistles and signals the game is over the game is over. And if he tries to change his mind he will end up at the hospital or the morgue.

Night-Tripper · 12-31-10, 09:23 PM

Official: Controversial calls correct

Associated Press

NEW YORK -- The national coordinator for college football officials said Friday the controversial calls in the Music City and New Era Pinstripe bowls were correct, but added the chaotic end to the North Carolina-Tennessee game will lead the NCAA rules committee to consider a rule change.

The Franklin American Mortgage Music City Bowl went to overtime after North Carolina was penalized for illegal substitution on what looked like the final play. Tennessee had already started celebrating the victory, but game officials walked off the 5-yard penalty and replay officials put a second back on the clock. That gave the Tar Heels enough time to kick a tying field goal.

North Carolina eventually won 30-27 in double overtime.

David Parry, who oversees college football officiating for the NCAA, told The Associated Press in a telephone interview that the Big Ten officials handled the confusing final seconds properly.

"The issue that's going to come up is the team that made the mistake by having the illegal substitution ended up getting the benefit from the rule," he said.
Parry said NFL rules allow for 10 seconds to be run off the clock on some late-game penalties and he said college football might consider adopting a similar rule.
"It was handled correctly, but I do anticipate the rules committee, which meets in the middle of February, to have that on their agenda for discussions," he said.
Parry also said the rule book supports officials who flagged a Kansas State player for excessive celebration for saluting after he scored a touchdown late in the Pinstripe Bowl against Syracuse.

Wildcats receiver Adrian Hilburn had a 30-yard touchdown catch with 1:13 left, cutting Syracuse's lead to 36-34. But when Hilburn got to the back of the end zone, he gave a quick salute to the fans in the stands.

Two officials from another Big Ten crew dropped flags and the 15-yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty meant the Wildcats had to go for the potential tying 2-point conversion from about the 17-yard line instead of the 2, where conversions are usually spotted.

Kansas State couldn't convert and the Orange won by two.

"It's a judgment call, but technically speaking such acts that bring attention to yourself, those are fouls," he said. "Some people would say it's a little too technical, too marginal, but as it's written, officials are covered by the rule."
Parry said a point of emphasis for several years now by the rules committee has been "good sportsmanship, clean play, no showboating, no drawing excessive attention to yourself."

He also said officials are encouraged to "error on the side of good sportsmanship."

Connecticut coach Randy Edsall, who is the chairman of the rules committee, said Thursday during a Fiesta Bowl news conference the officials in the Pinstripe Bowl got the excessive celebration call correct.

"We try to tell our kids all the time that you just can't bring attention to yourself. If we see that they are doing it we try to correct it during practice," he said.

Edsall added he'd like to see more consistency in the way the rule is enforced.
"Well, I do think that there is some inconsistencies maybe between conferences. I think we're getting closer. I think we're getting closer with the new officiating group that's a national officiating group that has been formed," Edsall said, referring to College Football Officiating, LLC, which Parry heads.

After last season, the rules committee considered making the excessive celebration penalty even tougher.

A proposal that would have taken points off the board if a player was flagged for excessive celebration after a touchdown did not pass, but there is a change coming to the unsportsmanlike conduct rule in 2011.

Next season, if a player draws an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty during the play, the penalty will wipe away the result of the play. For example, if a player high steps or necessarily dives into the end zone, the touchdown will be taken away and a 15-yard penalty will be assessed.

Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press

sportsfun · 12-31-10, 09:58 PM

games like this is what makes new rules usually.

Money · 12-31-10, 10:15 PM

What I don't understand is this... the penalty was called. So the spike play doesn't happen. The play before that was a run which the clock didn't stop for. The penalty should've been assessed and the clock should've started right when the ref blew the whistle. Correct?

wrongturn · 01-01-11, 12:16 AM

Instead of saying excessive celebration is not allowed, how about a list of acceptable celebrations, like jump pump, high five etc? At least in this way, it won't be a judgement call and be consistent in ruling.

scarp · 01-01-11, 12:22 AM

yea they need a rule