1. #1
    JBC77
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    Why has another Pinnacle not come along?

    I'll admit, I'm not that familiar with the ownership or the history of Pinnacle. I do remember, when I was allowed to have an account.......I had several other outs and really never used them, until they banned the U.S. We all know they were and still are, for some....that good.

    How come no one has come along and tried to copy the Pinnacle model? Will we ever see a book of that value and magnitude come along to service U.S players again. Or for that matter the global sports market.

    How did they get that big? Capital? Tons of liquidity or what?

  2. #2
    betplom
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    Pinny is that good, usually bets are graded within a minute of being complete, I've logged in to my Pinny acct seconds after the final out in a baseball game I won and see my wager graded and credited to my balance. In terms of payouts almost as fast, got my last withdrawal processed in less than 5 minutes into my Moneybookers account, for me the only book I personally rate higher than Pinny is Canbet -107 and they are a licensed UK/Australian book.

  3. #3
    Wheell
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    This is a great question. I suppose we should first define what pinnacle was/is.

    Pinnacle was an early adopter to the computerized system of taking bets. It was also an early adopter to low vig combined with high limits. To do this without getting DESTROYED by the computer group (among others) required tremendous skill. Pinnacle had possibly the greatest linesman of his era develop a methodology for sniffing out the "right" side of games to be on. This has come to be known as the pinnacle lean, but at the time it was a radical departure from accepted dealer theory, although other dealers generally had -110 to protect themselves. In time a low vig computerized system with high limits generated tremendous volume. With large volume it becomes MUCH easier to run at -104 or -105.

    Now, the question remains why has no one tried to copy Pinnacle? Well, Cascade tried. The basic problem for Cascade is that you simply can't do it without skill. This is not a business model that runs itself. Cascade got beat. Matchbook is potentially similar to Pinnacle but really isn't the same if you want to shoot 5 figure bullets 3 days before game time. Furthermore, Pinnacle still exists for most of the world. Anyone who wants to compete like pinnacle still has to compete against pinnacle. Good luck with that.

    There really isn't enough room in the market for a high limit low vig competitor to pinnacle. Anyone who tried is likely to get beat like cascade.
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  4. #4
    durito
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    It took pinnacle a long time to get to where they are.

    They didn't just open up at -104 NFL $50k limits. They moved up over years.

    That, and they still seem to be taking lots of action at Pinnacle, meaning people have found a way around the US problem.

  5. #5
    JBC77
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    Quote Originally Posted by durito View Post
    It took pinnacle a long time to get to where they are.

    They didn't just open up at -104 NFL $50k limits. They moved up over years.

    That, and they still seem to be taking lots of action at Pinnacle, meaning people have found a way around the US problem.
    That was what I was curious about. I wondered if they started off at those limits.

    If you were going to open a new book and try to offer a similar product to what Pinnacle puts out.....with those kinds of sick limits. You would need obscene amounts of money to start up. That could be the main reason why they don't have a real competitor.

    It's curious, why over the years no other book has really been able to "blow up", so to speak.

  6. #6
    Zeroed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheell View Post

    There really isn't enough room in the market for a high limit low vig competitor to pinnacle. Anyone who tried is likely to get beat like cascade.
    Cascade is a bad example..the only thing they had in common with Pinny was -105 on full game lines (not on halfs).

    They had very late lines, and the software was not automated.
    So they had to put a delay on certain accounts, Pinny would never do that. Only major U.S. sports, no soccer etc.

    Cascade also tried to copy the lines, while Pinny is the market maker. Imo Cascade was a bad business model, and cannot be compared to what Pinny does.

  7. #7
    David
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    Mansion tried to compete with Pinnacle but failed. They had higher limits than Pinny on some events for a while.

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  8. #8
    JBC77
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    Mansion tried to compete with Pinnacle but failed. They had higher limits than Pinny on some events for a while.
    I remember that. Someone told me they took it in the rear the time they offered that Steelers stunt. If you were a forum member with a dime....you were all over that. Friends who didn't even gamble or play on line thanked me for that.

  9. #9
    JC
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    Bookmaking is not Pinnacle's primary business. Pinnacle is a betting operation that masks itself as a bookmaking operation. Any money they make booking is gravy.

    The people behind Pinnacle could make money laying 110, so instead they opened up a book and now they get +105 on the same games they would be happy to lay 110 on. That drops their break even from about 54% to around 48%.

    They move the lines to attract the action they want. If they have no opinion they try to play it as neutral as possible and settle for the low hold any other bookmaker would earn from the same low juice line.
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  10. #10
    JBC77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Bookmaking is not Pinnacle's primary business. Pinnacle is a betting operation that masks itself as a bookmaking operation. Any money they make booking is gravy.

    The people behind Pinnacle could make money laying 110, so instead they opened up a book and now they get +105 on the same games they would be happy to lay 110 on. That drops their break even from about 54% to around 48%.

    They move the lines to attract the action they want. If they have no opinion they try to play it as neutral as possible and settle for the low hold any other bookmaker would earn from the same low juice line.
    Great post.

    What do you mean betting operation? Elaborate for us if possible. You of all people could school us on this. So they lay off most....half of the action they take? To where?

    No one else can do this and offer the U.S that style pricing?

  11. #11
    RonPaul2008
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    This part is not true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeroed View Post
    Cascade also tried to copy the lines

  12. #12
    RickySteve
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaul2008 View Post
    This part is not true.
    The hell it isn't.

  13. #13
    ion
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBC77 View Post
    Great post.

    What do you mean betting operation? Elaborate for us if possible. You of all people could school us on this. So they lay off most....half of the action they take? To where?

    No one else can do this and offer the U.S that style pricing?
    Taking bets on a team at -105 is the same as betting on the other team at +105. This is better than laying -110 somewhere else. If Pinnacle really wants action on one side, they offer it at +105, +110 or more. That is the same as laying -105, -110 elsewhere. An advantage is that they can get more action this way than they can get by betting elsewhere. Plus, all the money being kept by Pinnacle is another advantage.

  14. #14
    noyb
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    while it's true a new pinnacle has not come along for us sports, i could name at least five asian soccer-books (along with canbet) who offer a pinnacle-style pricing model in soccer. to be honest i'm not quite sure who came first, pinnacle or the asians, but the lines are more or less the same and the moves also closely resemble eachother.
    for some reason these books do not offer a whole lot of US sports (altough likely because they don't accept US customers in the first place, so volume is bound to be very limited), and if they do, with enormous juice.
    i'm sure that will change if ever the us market opens up again.

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  15. #15
    Dark Horse
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Bookmaking is not Pinnacle's primary business. Pinnacle is a betting operation that masks itself as a bookmaking operation. Any money they make booking is gravy.

    The people behind Pinnacle could make money laying 110, so instead they opened up a book and now they get +105 on the same games they would be happy to lay 110 on. That drops their break even from about 54% to around 48%.

    They move the lines to attract the action they want. If they have no opinion they try to play it as neutral as possible and settle for the low hold any other bookmaker would earn from the same low juice line.
    Best perspective on Pinnacle lean I've ever read. Thanks!

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  16. #16
    Actionbrett
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    They move the lines to attract the action they want. If they have no opinion they try to play it as neutral as possible and settle for the low hold any other bookmaker would earn from the same low juice line.
    Pinnacle, at this moment, has Baltimore -9 +116. Are the inviting their clients to take the favorite? A few books have them at 7.5 and a majority has them at 8.

  17. #17
    Wheell
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    No, pinnacle is protecting itself from teasers. That is why they will often have -9 +116 or -1 -132.

  18. #18
    DrunkenLullaby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheell View Post
    No, pinnacle is protecting itself from teasers. That is why they will often have -9 +116 or -1 -132.
    Wow, this plus JC's post means that 2 of the most insightful posts I have EVER read both come in the same thread. to both you guys.

  19. #19
    Wheell
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    Actually, if you want to buy me a beer, I would gladly accept. That is what that smiley means, right?

  20. #20
    White_Tiger
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    I really Miss Pinny.

  21. #21
    LargeMouthBass
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Bookmaking is not Pinnacle's primary business. Pinnacle is a betting operation that masks itself as a bookmaking operation. Any money they make booking is gravy.

    The people behind Pinnacle could make money laying 110, so instead they opened up a book and now they get +105 on the same games they would be happy to lay 110 on. That drops their break even from about 54% to around 48%.

    They move the lines to attract the action they want. If they have no opinion they try to play it as neutral as possible and settle for the low hold any other bookmaker would earn from the same low juice line.
    It does make sense but is this just a speculation or do you know this for a fact?

  22. #22
    austintx05
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    thanks for the insight

  23. #23
    tacomax
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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMouthBass View Post
    It does make sense but is this just a speculation or do you know this for a fact?
    Well JC knows a lot about the bookmaking business and has even served time because of it. Either he's lying or telling the truth. You decide.

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  24. #24
    rara51
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    Quote Originally Posted by durito View Post
    It took pinnacle a long time to get to where they are.

    They didn't just open up at -104 NFL $50k limits. They moved up over years.

    That, and they still seem to be taking lots of action at Pinnacle, meaning people have found a way around the US problem.
    can anyone shed further light on how american players are circumventing pinnys US ban?

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  25. #25
    LargeMouthBass
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacomax View Post
    Either he's lying or telling the truth.
    Ummmmm... are you completely sure?

  26. #26
    pico
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Bookmaking is not Pinnacle's primary business. Pinnacle is a betting operation that masks itself as a bookmaking operation. Any money they make booking is gravy.

    The people behind Pinnacle could make money laying 110, so instead they opened up a book and now they get +105 on the same games they would be happy to lay 110 on. That drops their break even from about 54% to around 48%.

    They move the lines to attract the action they want. If they have no opinion they try to play it as neutral as possible and settle for the low hold any other bookmaker would earn from the same low juice line.
    if this is true, i guess the pinnacle lean does mean something. which asian books are doing the same thing?

  27. #27
    pico
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    come to think about it, what jc said makes a lot of sense. explains a lot about the weird benefiaries for bank wires.

  28. #28
    LargeMouthBass
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    What JC said makes sense but I highly doubt it's true... First of all, you don't need 54% to break even at -110.

  29. #29
    JC
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    My mistake, it's closer to 52.3% to break even at -110.

    I stand by the rest of my post in this thread.

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  30. #30
    hhsilver
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    Quote Originally Posted by Actionbrett View Post
    Pinnacle, at this moment, has Baltimore -9 +116. Are the inviting their clients to take the favorite? A few books have them at 7.5 and a majority has them at 8.
    It's not clear to me whether they are encouraging you to take the fav at +116 or the dog at +9 since the others have +7.5 or +8 .

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  31. #31
    Bill Dozer
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    Pinnacle is/was a true betting market for most US sports. Few other books could get an idea of where the odds should be based on their own customer base which is why every other sportsbook was glued to Don Best. Pinnacle users controlled their line in a lot of cases which controlled the line in most US leagues for the industry.

    An over simplified example (that doesn't take into account the buying pts drop-down), if Heritage Sports moved the line 3 points on their own, Heritage is going to get nailed on their unique line and take lopsided action. If Pinnacle moves 3 points other books will quickly come that way too. If Heritage doesn't follow Pinnacle they risk getting piled on at the soft number.

    When Pinnacle gets all of the sharp opinions coming in Pinnacle itself will have a sharp opinion and can manipulate the line.

    Pinnacle undercut everyone relatively early on and earned big market share and pretty much made it real hard for other books to have any kind of opinion. For years it made a lot of linemen frustrated. For another book to attempt to be a Pinnacle at that time it would have to go up against Pinnacle and try to find ways to get a jump on a position. Mansion seemed like the only book that could take huge hits as they snatched up market makers but we know how that ended.

    Cascade had confidence in their 105 lines because they moved with Del Mar and Grande and never did any early line stuff at -105.

    I would bet the other big boys could get it done today but they probably figure it is not broke so don't fix it. They probably have the same mindset they did before Pinny, that there is enough to go around. Add to that that Pinnacle still moves numbers. Just because they aren't in the US does't mean the path is clear.
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  32. #32
    bookie
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Bookmaking is not Pinnacle's primary business. Pinnacle is a betting operation that masks itself as a bookmaking operation.
    Bill...would you agree with JC's way of characterizing what Pinnacle is and does?

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  33. #33
    DudleyDawson
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Bookmaking is not Pinnacle's primary business. pinnacle is a betting operation that masks itself as a bookmaking operation. Any money they make booking is gravy.

    The people behind Pinnacle could make money laying 110, so instead they opened up a book and now they get +105 on the same games they would be happy to lay 110 on. That drops their break even from about 54% to around 48%.

    They move the lines to attract the action they want. If they have no opinion they try to play it as neutral as possible and settle for the low hold any other Bookmaker would earn from the same low juice line.
    If there's one person's posting history on this forum ever worth reading it's Cohen's....hands down. This guy has/had inside involvement on pretty much everything.

  34. #34
    RogueScholar
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    Oh wow, best bump I've read in years, Dudley. I remember reading this when it was a new thread and not quite grasping all that was being said, and it's quite satisfying to read it again today able to fully grasp what everyone's saying and the accompanying subtexts.

    As for my take on the question at hand, I think we haven't seen another Pinnacle emerge because we have yet to see Pinnacle make a big mistake in their operation. When a company finds a position of overt dominance in an emerging market, as Pinnacle did in a time when 90% of sports wagers were being placed over the phone, the people that make the switch to the new method become tacit investors in the new company. They seldom have any legal equity in the company, but they see themselves as "belonging" to the new wave of customers who blazed the trail into more fertile fields.

    We've seen this happen several times in recent decades, with IBM in the 80's, Microsoft in the 90's, and Google in the 2000's. All of these companies held/hold natural monopolies in their market by virtue of being the first on the scene with an innovation, allowing them to create large economies of scale on a level which precludes genuine competition until their customers begin searching for an alternative on their own. Of the three, only IBM fails to remain the behemoth in the market which they once dominated, and that's because they failed to stay relevant when the PC market decentralized and suddenly every component of their integrated solutions was being innovated upon by several new competitors, many of which being able to beat IBM to the punch by virtue of having a narrower focus. Companies popped up to build their own computer brands with parts from 20-30 different small companies while IBM was still laboring to make everything in-house. IBM dropped the ball and that's how the wave of PC manufacturers we're familiar with now finally got their foot in the door.

    In my opinion, we'll need to see a similar gaffe on the part of Pinnacle before they have any viable competition. It's not that what Pinnacle does can't be replicated, it's that they already do it so smoothly on such low margins that there's very few gripes their customers have which might allow them to be lured away. If they ever make a move which gives a significant portion of their customers a reason to look elsewhere for an alternative, that's when I think we'll see an established bookmaker create a brand to compete in that market sector.
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  35. #35
    Sawyer
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    Guys, Pinnacle is not a sportsbook. They're a betting syndicate.

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