1. #106
    cincinnatikid513
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    nolan arenado will be by the time he retires

  2. #107
    5918mike
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    Mike Schmidt

  3. #108
    Chi_archie
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
    Deadball? Not buying that.

    Great discussion on it here

    https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...-dead-ball-era

    The 70s and 80s (sans 81 strike) get a bad rap, but HR production and runs per game in line w rest of decades except the widely accepted 1963-1968 period when there was a heightened mound

    you think the HR rates in Schmidt's years were in line with Beltres?

    i'm not sure why you link something comparing just the HR leader from decades that don't include Beltre's playing era? that is talking about 60s,70s, and 80's

    In Beltre's years the HR per team per game rate was basically exactly 1 HR per game 1.002
    In Schimdit's years the HR per team per game rate was .77 HR per game

    Beltre's era was a 23% higher home run rate, its not even close. It works out to 3806 more HR's a year in the league (standardizing for # of teams) But the eye test can tell you that. In Schmidt's era a guy there were years the league leader didn't hit more than 35 HR's In Beltre's era 50 Hr's was a thing, hell 60+ hr's was a thing in his era.

    Again Schmidt is arguably a top 2-3 all time Power hitter against his era. Here is the list of times a dude led the league in HR's. How many times did Beltre do that?

    it's a silly argument to say a very good longevity guy > a top 20 all time player at any position


    Times Leading League in Hr's

    1. Ruth 12
    2. Schmidt 8
    3. Kiner 7
    4. Cravath 6
    5. Killibrew 6
    6. Ott 6
    7. Rodriguez 5
    8. Stovey 5
    Last edited by Chi_archie; 02-24-20 at 08:37 AM.
    Nomination(s):
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  4. #109
    chico2663
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    Brooks,chipper,Schmidt,nettles,Scott Rolen,Brett,Ed Mathews and arod

  5. #110
    Chi_archie
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    Hard to argue against Chipper as top 3

  6. #111
    gojetsgomoxies
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    MVP share (my go-to for any argument now.. modern players only)... says.

    schmidt dominant #1
    brett comfortable #2
    beltre distant #3 (i believe that's correct)... EDIT: oops, brooks robinson is actually 2nd, a little ahead of brett. and brett/beltre move down 1 spot.

    fyi, schmidt, brooks, brett are #12, #19, #25 overall... #19 seems high for robinson..... 3rd base seems like underrated position. hard defensively and a good way to get another fairly big bat in the lineup.

    they really need to back and do phantom MVP votes for old seasons..... barry bonds leads in MVP share at 7.9. scholars think babe ruth might have won 11 MVP's. even if you go 9 MVP's for Ruth, he probably finishes 2nd in those other 2 seasons...

  7. #112
    gojetsgomoxies
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    chipper and beltre are effectively tied on the MVP share. i did miss chipper on my scanning of page.

  8. #113
    Chi_archie
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    I like MVP shares as well

    It can be weird at times for very good but not great players that had a super long career

  9. #114
    Big Bear
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBR Tony View Post
    Ken Camaniti

  10. #115
    Bcatswin
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    Quote Originally Posted by chico2663 View Post
    dayton ohio's own mike schmidt. never was a phillies fan except when tony perez played there
    Not Pete to? Tony is one of my all time favs. Also loved Tony Gwynn. Schmidt was a badass

  11. #116
    Bcatswin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bear View Post
    Ken Camaniti
    Was waiting on this, possibly the best arm ever on the infield. Rolen close.

  12. #117
    stevenash
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    Michael Jack Schmidt

  13. #118
    deadphish
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    best hitter: George Brett...
    3 batting titles in 3 different decades.
    took a .400 BA into late September in 1980...ended up w/a 390 BA
    clutch hitting in playoffs

    best fielder: Brooks Robinson...
    16 consecutive gold gloves!

  14. #119
    clockwise1965
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5918mike View Post
    Mike Schmidt
    I agree. Brooks Robinson may have been the best defensive 3rd baseman of all time.

  15. #120
    SteveKerrsJunk
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    There's only one right answer and his name is Chipper penetrating Jones.

    Why Chipper is undeniably the GOAT at 3rd Base.

    1. Number 1 OPS all-time at 3rd with a massive .930. Schmidt has a .908, then Brett and Boggs at .858 and .857, Beltre at .819.
    2. 8 straight seasons of 100+ RBI with 7/8 seasons batting over .300, .295 was his worst BA during that span. This stretch has never been matched in history by a 3b.
    3. 14 straight seasons of 20+ HR. Incredible longevity. Mike Schmidt also had 14 straight 20+ Hr seasons, with 13 of the 14 being 30+ homer seasons which is truly remarkable.
    4. Chipper Jones had 5 seasons of 1.000+ OPS, Mike Schmidt is the only one close with 2 1.000+ OPS seasons. Chipper Jones has a higher career OPS than Albert Pujols, and he could be passing Miguel Cabrera's .930 as it dips. That's how good this guy was.
    5. Strikeouts, Chipper Jones never struck out 100 times in a season which is an unbelievable accomplishment, in comparison Mike Schmidt struck out over 100 times 12 times in his career and led the league in strikeouts 4 times in his career. Chipper was a more reliable hitter.
    6. Switch-hitter. Enough said.
    7. Number 1 in RBI and Runs among 3rd baseman

    Schmidt has HR's, the accolades of 3 MVPs, World series MVP, all the gold gloves. But the reality is he had a .690 OPS in the postseason which a shit .234 BA and .300 OBP to Chipper's .287/.409 and excellent .864 OPS in 20 series. Better regular season hitter and better post-season hitter, numbers don't lie.

  16. #121
    eidolon
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    Kobe Bryant

  17. #122
    gummo
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    Schmidt was the first thing that came to mind

  18. #123
    chico2663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bcatswin View Post
    Not Pete to? Tony is one of my all time favs. Also loved Tony Gwynn. Schmidt was a badass
    Pete was a hack at 3 rd

  19. #124
    MinnesotaFats
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chi_archie View Post
    you think the HR rates in Schmidt's years were in line with Beltres?

    i'm not sure why you link something comparing just the HR leader from decades that don't include Beltre's playing era? that is talking about 60s,70s, and 80's

    In Beltre's years the HR per team per game rate was basically exactly 1 HR per game 1.002
    In Schimdit's years the HR per team per game rate was .77 HR per game

    Beltre's era was a 23% higher home run rate, its not even close. It works out to 3806 more HR's a year in the league (standardizing for # of teams) But the eye test can tell you that. In Schmidt's era a guy there were years the league leader didn't hit more than 35 HR's In Beltre's era 50 Hr's was a thing, hell 60+ hr's was a thing in his era.

    Again Schmidt is arguably a top 2-3 all time Power hitter against his era. Here is the list of times a dude led the league in HR's. How many times did Beltre do that?

    it's a silly argument to say a very good longevity guy > a top 20 all time player at any position


    Times Leading League in Hr's

    1. Ruth 12
    2. Schmidt 8
    3. Kiner 7
    4. Cravath 6
    5. Killibrew 6
    6. Ott 6
    7. Rodriguez 5
    8. Stovey 5
    There's more to baseball than the home run

    There were just as many players capable of hitting 40+ hrs/ year in Schmidt era, however teams were constructed differently and so were parks

    You didn't see 2b, ss, cf, c hitting bombs, the mlb level transitioned to a defense mode w those positions as large multi use stadiums became the norm an emphasis was put on scoring runs w speed and defense.

    It was the same baseball, similar runs per game, just less HR because 5 positions in the BO were occupied with guys like Ozzie Smith, Willie McGee, Wally Backman and Mike Sochia instead of Alex Rodriguez, Alphonso Sorriano, Mike Trout or Mike Piazza...and no DH till late 70s.

    I played ball in early 00s with guys like Darrell Robinson who hit 40 hrs in aaa and didnt get the call and Mitch Zwolinsky who was the ACE of the aaa cubs rotation that included Moyer AND Maddux and Darren Knight the all time KO leader at UofM. They all say the same thing, the systems of the 70s and 80s had just as many big boppers as today, the clubs just prefered to play the game more conservatively....but there was still 4.5 runs per game

    Again, nothing against Schmidt, he was great, but if I'm building a team and have to draft a 3b I personally take Beltre for the 15 consistent years of .290/30/30/90. The fact he didn't KO much means a ton when looking at options such as moving guys over, hit and run, forcing other team to did into the pen and field a ball in play, etc.

    Also I never thought Chipper was better than Beltre, he got the benefit of playing on a stacked team for 20 years in a weak league w the best pitching on his team.

  20. #125
    bodyman
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    Michael Jack Schmidt
    Brooks Robinson
    1A and 1B however you want to sort them out

  21. #126
    jjgold
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    Ron Cey

  22. #127
    JMobile
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    Clayton Kershaw

  23. #128
    DrunkHorseplayer
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    Mike Schmidt.

  24. #129
    MinnesotaFats
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodyman View Post
    Michael Jack Schmidt
    Brooks Robinson
    1A and 1B however you want to sort them out
    Brooks definitely wins on defense

    The offense was average even for his era

  25. #130
    cincinnatikid513
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    chris sabo

  26. #131
    MinnesotaFats
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    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnatikid513 View Post
    chris sabo
    Funniest shit ever, someone should post the clip.

    Sabo cracks his bat, borrows someone else's stick (clearly not same size or make as his), cracks that and 5 pieces of cork fall out lol

    He gets ejected and suspended lol

  27. #132
    cincinnatikid513
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
    Funniest shit ever, someone should post the clip.

    Sabo cracks his bat, borrows someone else's stick (clearly not same size or make as his), cracks that and 5 pieces of cork fall out lol

    He gets ejected and suspended lol
    yo

    Points Awarded:

    MinnesotaFats gave cincinnatikid513 2 SBR Point(s) for this post.


  28. #133
    koz-man
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
    Funniest shit ever, someone should post the clip.

    Sabo cracks his bat, borrows someone else's stick (clearly not same size or make as his), cracks that and 5 pieces of cork fall out lol

    He gets ejected and suspended lol
    Good stuff here. Remember like it was yesterday. Funny shit.

    Thanks for posting clip cincy513

  29. #134
    Chi_archie
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
    There's more to baseball than the home run
    Yes, Runs

    it's interesting that a big part of your argument before was that Schmidt didn't hit enough doubles compared to Beltre. but now that we established Schmidt had more extra base hits per year and of of the better (triple/HR) variety. XBH's don't matter as much now apparently.

    but it really comes down to runs Produced

    per year

    Beltre 94 Rbi and 84 Runs

    Schmidt 107 Rbi and 101 Runs in an era where runs were down about 7%



    it's a no brainer

  30. #135
    stevenash
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    As most of you know by now I'm heavy into analytics but this is a topic where I dismiss them.
    The question is "who's the best third baseman of all time"?
    Not who's the best fielding third baseman of all time?
    If it was the answer would be Brooks Robinson hands down.
    But it isn't.

    Brooks Robinson was not nearly the hitter Schmidt or Nettles or Chipper Jones was but he was better than most give him credit for.
    He holds pretty much every defensive 3B record in the books, that's not arguable, but he did hit .267 for about 1/4 of a century and did hit 20 or more HR's in six different seasons in a pitchers baseball era. But Earl Weaver did not need offense from Belanger or Brooks.

    The question is who's the greatest 3B of all time.
    Jones hit for a higher average, Schmidt hit for more power.
    I'm dismissing Nettles in this argument because I feel he was a poor man's Mike Schmidt.

    I still believe all things considered even though Jones did hit for a better average he didn't play a full season for almost the last decade of his career he wasn't quite the complete all around 3B that Schmidt was.

    Let's not lose sight of the fact that Schmidt did win nine consecutive gold gloves and ten all told.

  31. #136
    MinnesotaFats
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    Chipper over Beltre?

    Only difference between the 2 is Chipper has a slightly higher average whereas Beltre as the career advantage in all the other stats, and higher WAR

  32. #137
    stevenash
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnesotaFats View Post
    Chipper over Beltre?

    Only difference between the 2 is Chipper has a slightly higher average whereas Beltre as the career advantage in all the other stats, and higher WAR
    You can make a case for Beltre and Chipper.
    There's no right or wrong answers in this debate.

  33. #138
    stevenash
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    Quote Originally Posted by cincinnatikid513 View Post
    nolan arenado will be by the time he retires
    Bad road splits.


    I Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+
    Home 515 506 2188 1973 373 640 144 21 129 446 7 6 179 303 0.324 0.38 0.615 0.995 1213 65 12 0 23 31 17 0.327 121
    Away 516 509 2169 1963 253 520 109 6 98 288 9 9 168 361 0.265 0.323 0.476 0.799 935 49 10 5 23 24 20 0.276 79

  34. #139
    MinnesotaFats
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenash View Post
    Bad road splits.


    I Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip tOPS+
    Home 515 506 2188 1973 373 640 144 21 129 446 7 6 179 303 0.324 0.38 0.615 0.995 1213 65 12 0 23 31 17 0.327 121
    Away 516 509 2169 1963 253 520 109 6 98 288 9 9 168 361 0.265 0.323 0.476 0.799 935 49 10 5 23 24 20 0.276 79
    JFC lol

    Guy half the player on the road!

  35. #140
    JMobile
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Bear View Post
    Ken Camaniti

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