Why don't all basketball teams have closers?

THE PROFIT · 02-22-10, 02:39 AM

In football they have a closer, a fuking white kid who's only job is to kick the ball through the uprights! Alot of times he fuks it up so there goes your theory.

rm18 · 02-22-10, 02:41 AM

I don't think there is a man alive who can shoot 95% and play elite NBA defense

GiveMeaBJ · 02-22-10, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by THE PROFIT

In football they have a closer, a fuking white kid who's only job is to kick the ball through the uprights! Alot of times he fuks it up so there goes your theory.

Not the same. Kickers must kick all game and are far from 95% from 35+ yards out. Free throws are easier. Reddick hit that insane amount in a row.

GiveMeaBJ · 02-22-10, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by rm18

I don't think there is a man alive who can shoot 95% and play elite NBA defense

See but you don't need him to play defense. The only time he should be playing defense is if you throw it in and they steal it. Just have him sink free throws.

THE PROFIT · 02-22-10, 03:03 AM

These bastards are getting paid too much to not have to multi-task

Vincepcion · 02-22-10, 03:09 AM

lol i never thought of this but this is actually a great idea
coaches wont do this because if he misses everyone will be like "WTF the guy hasnt played the whole game and you put him in crunch time to make high-pressured plays"....simply put they dont have the balls to risk it

but on the other hand, sometimes its not easy getting that ball in facing full court pressure, so its harder for the unathletic small white guy to get free

i like the idea though...candidates for the closer role at the next level: jon scheyer, jason bohannon

GiveMeaBJ · 02-22-10, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by Vincepcion

lol i never thought of this but this is actually a great idea
coaches wont do this because if he misses everyone will be like "WTF the guy hasnt played the whole game and you put him in crunch time to make high-pressured plays"....simply put they dont have the balls to risk it

but on the other hand, sometimes its not easy getting that ball in facing full court pressure, so its harder for the unathletic small white guy to get free

i like the idea though...candidates for the closer role at the next level: jon scheyer, jason bohannon

Exactly. College kids that are great shooters but can't make it in the NBA. You call in the closer. You do whatever you can to get this kid the ball. If you can't then you have other reliable FT shooters obviously but everyone on the court neeeds to be thinking "Get Scheyer the ball". In 10 years when this is a staple of the NBA I will bump this thread. Just wait, it is a matter of time before NBA starts recording saves and blown saves.

rm18 · 02-22-10, 03:12 AM

Every NBA team has someone who can shoot at least 85%, and I don't know who you could find to shoot significantly over 90%.

Also you are taking for granted getting open and not having the ball stolen, many of the crucial misses happen because the 90% shooter is denied the ball even though he is a great athlete. You can put some samll unathletic white guy on the floor but if he is double teamed by his man and the inbounders man he will not be able to catch the ball, and rosters are not big enough to waste a spot either n the NBA

rm18 · 02-22-10, 03:16 AM

Ok but almost every team has somebody just as good a foul shooter as Bohannon, but 85%+ guys miss some and they also get denied the ball

GiveMeaBJ · 02-22-10, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by rm18

Every NBA team has someone who can shoot at least 85%, and I don't know who you could find to shoot significantly over 90%.

Also you are taking for granted getting open and not having the ball stolen, many of the crucial misses happen because the 90% shooter is denied the ball even though he is a great athlete. You can put some samll unathletic white guy on the floor but if he is double teamed by his man and the inbounders man he will not be able to catch the ball, and rosters are not big enough to waste a spot either n the NBA

You mean to tell me that your 12th man would rather be a guy who will never see the floor rather then a closer. You guys are underestimating this closer idea. Sure the kid has to get open but if he doesn't then you have another guy shooting and it is just like normal.

Grind House · 02-22-10, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by GiveMeaBJ

Not the same. Kickers must kick all game and are far from 95% from 35+ yards out. Free throws are easier. Reddick hit that insane amount in a row.

Redick doesn't hit shit like that in Orlando.

Chi_archie · 02-22-10, 09:51 AM

there simply is not enough benefit over the risk you are exposing yourself, in having a known guy come in to just shoot free throws, that is NOT good enough to be on the court during the regular game. at most you are only getting a 15% increase in your ft shooting from your normal highest % shooter on the court. many times it would only be a 3-5% increase. and that is granting you that you can find a 95% free throw shooter in tough game situations coming in cold, who hasn't played or practiced in areanas with 15,000 fans yelling at him.

its not worth that 15-3% improvement because it would be more than offset by the liability, of this kid

a) getting open and receiving the ball cleanly in the first place

b) getting the ball and making a basketball move or two after he is double teamed/trapped and NOT fouled. because the opposing coaches are smart enough to tell their team to just trap the guy DON'T FOUL and MAKE him pass or dribble.

I bet over 15% of the time this would lead to a turnover. and even if it didn't, he will have to pass the ball or risk getting a ten second or 5 second violation often times.

if he does turn the ball over, the opposing team now most likely has a defensive and offensive liability to exploit. you can practice defense to an extent, but you also have to have the natural athletic ability and experience in game situations.

this seems like a good idea in theory, but would not work in practice. Even some of the best free throw shooters and all around players still choke under pressure. so why count on a non-all around everyday kind of player in those situations.

example: yesterday in the Pitt vs Nova game. Ashton Gibbs, who is one of the best free throw shooters in the country missed 3 out of 4 down the stretch.

that was 2 times in the last minute where a 90%+ free throw shooter was now forced to play defense for a possession. (at least) depending on the time out situation. luckily Gibbs is a great all around player and it didn't matter. In fact after missing 2 of 2 crucial free throws, he was able to make an athletic steal as nova pushed the ball up the court.

the real solution is this: have EVERY kid practice free throws ALOT. there is no reason why in the summer time these kids can't be shooting 500+ free throws a day. and in season before and after practice, especially the end of practice with running thrown in to practice with tired legs.

I can't imagine why every gaurd in the ncaa doesn't shoot 80%. I haven't played in years, but i'm sure I could still hit at least 70% in game situations.

its sickening how lazy players are today

BatemanPatrickl · 02-22-10, 10:25 AM

There are 5 players on the court so I doubt one person could close the game for you in basketball. Not like baseball where only one person is pitching.

ryanspeer2001 · 02-22-10, 10:57 AM

It seems to be a great idea in practice but I have to agree with Archies view point here. I would add that a closer position like this would be great for game tested vets who are slowing down at the end of their careers but can still play in the clutch.

Chi_archie · 02-22-10, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by BatemanPatrickl

There are 5 players on the court so I doubt one person could close the game for you in basketball. Not like baseball where only one person is pitching.

while I don't agree with the original posters premise. you can't dismiss it this easily, because we all know that the majority of teams have that one guy that both handles the ball well and shoots the best ft% and he will get the ball on 90% of in bounds plays in a "have to foul" situation.

GiveMeaBJ · 02-22-10, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

there simply is not enough benefit over the risk you are exposing yourself, in having a known guy come in to just shoot free throws, that is NOT good enough to be on the court during the regular game. at most you are only getting a 15% increase in your ft shooting from your normal highest % shooter on the court. many times it would only be a 3-5% increase. and that is granting you that you can find a 95% free throw shooter in tough game situations coming in cold, who hasn't played or practiced in areanas with 15,000 fans yelling at him.

its not worth that 15-3% improvement because it would be more than offset by the liability, of this kid

a) getting open and receiving the ball cleanly in the first place

b) getting the ball and making a basketball move or two after he is double teamed/trapped and NOT fouled. because the opposing coaches are smart enough to tell their team to just trap the guy DON'T FOUL and MAKE him pass or dribble.

I bet over 15% of the time this would lead to a turnover. and even if it didn't, he will have to pass the ball or risk getting a ten second or 5 second violation often times.

if he does turn the ball over, the opposing team now most likely has a defensive and offensive liability to exploit. you can practice defense to an extent, but you also have to have the natural athletic ability and experience in game situations.

this seems like a good idea in theory, but would not work in practice. Even some of the best free throw shooters and all around players still choke under pressure. so why count on a non-all around everyday kind of player in those situations.

example: yesterday in the Pitt vs Nova game. Ashton Gibbs, who is one of the best free throw shooters in the country missed 3 out of 4 down the stretch.

that was 2 times in the last minute where a 90%+ free throw shooter was now forced to play defense for a possession. (at least) depending on the time out situation. luckily Gibbs is a great all around player and it didn't matter. In fact after missing 2 of 2 crucial free throws, he was able to make an athletic steal as nova pushed the ball up the court.

the real solution is this: have EVERY kid practice free throws ALOT. there is no reason why in the summer time these kids can't be shooting 500+ free throws a day. and in season before and after practice, especially the end of practice with running thrown in to practice with tired legs.

I can't imagine why every gaurd in the ncaa doesn't shoot 80%. I haven't played in years, but i'm sure I could still hit at least 70% in game situations.

its sickening how lazy players are today

All very solid points. Just for arguments sake I will respond. The thing you are a missing here though is that this kid will be a guy who isn't completley incompetent at everything. For example, Jon Scheyer. A college star, won't do anything in the NBA. He shoots almost 90% from the line. If your a bad FT shooting team why not grab him and just put him in there when your going to get fouled. Scheyer played at Duke so he plays smart, is used to coming off of screens, and can handle the ball.

I guess in hindsight this wouldn't be a great idea for teams with guys like Billups, Allen, etc that are automatic and are star players. But, a bad free throw shooting team why not grab him and have him be your closer.

Or for that matter, Memphis U. How many years were they terrible FT shooters in a row? Why not grab some frosh who can hit FT's and throw him in. If they had a closer Kansas doesn't win the Nat Title.

Chi_archie · 02-22-10, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by GiveMeaBJ

All very solid points. Just for arguments sake I will respond. The thing you are a missing here though is that this kid will be a guy who isn't completley incompetent at everything. For example, Jon Scheyer. A college star, won't do anything in the NBA. He shoots almost 90% from the line. If your a bad FT shooting team why not grab him and just put him in there when your going to get fouled. Scheyer played at Duke so he plays smart, is used to coming off of screens, and can handle the ball.

I guess in hindsight this wouldn't be a great idea for teams with guys like Billups, Allen, etc that are automatic and are star players. But, a bad free throw shooting team why not grab him and have him be your closer.

Or for that matter, Memphis U. How many years were they terrible FT shooters in a row? Why not grab some frosh who can hit FT's and throw him in. If they had a closer Kansas doesn't win the Nat Title.

yeah, I was visualizing this soley in regards to college for some reason. but I think if you took an above avg college player you could use him like that for the NBA.

but I don't think there are too many NBA teams that don't have at least a low to mid 80% free throw shooter on their team that is a regular. a guy like Scheyer coming in to just shoot free throws cold not in the game flow prob wouldn't do much better.

its like pinch hitting in baseball a lifetime .300 hitter usually is like a lifetime .220 hitter pinch hitting. you lose somthing by sitting and watching for 90% of the game.

the other component is........ you typically only have 2 picks in an the NBA draft. it might even be 1. and half of these picks don't even really pan out. do you really wanna waste one pick on a guy that wouldn't be drafted anyways instead of trying to get a guy that will help you out for the full 48 mins, if not that year. a year or two down the road

GiveMeaBJ · 02-22-10, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

yeah, I was visualizing this soley in regards to college for some reason. but I think if you took an above avg college player you could use him like that for the NBA.

but I don't think there are too many NBA teams that don't have at least a low to mid 80% free throw shooter on their team that is a regular. a guy like Scheyer coming in to just shoot free throws cold not in the game flow prob wouldn't do much better.

its like pinch hitting in baseball a lifetime .300 hitter usually is like a lifetime .220 hitter pinch hitting. you lose somthing by sitting and watching for 90% of the game.

the other component is........ you typically only have 2 picks in an the NBA draft. it might even be 1. and half of these picks don't even really pan out. do you really wanna waste one pick on a guy that wouldn't be drafted anyways instead of trying to get a guy that will help you out for the full 48 mins, if not that year. a year or two down the road

Yea, I hear you. But Scheyer probably wouldn't get drafted anyway. You could probably just sign him for cheap.

BatemanPatrickl · 02-22-10, 01:17 PM

Teams press in a must foul situation so there is a good chance that the "closer" may not get the ball. Plus if he can't pass or dribble the guy is a major liability.

Chi_archie · 02-22-10, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by BatemanPatrickl

Teams press in a must foul situation so there is a good chance that the "closer" may not get the ball. Plus if he can't pass or dribble the guy is a major liability.

not a "good" chance. even in that situation and maybe even more so..... the teams option a or b are gonna get the ball the majority of the time.

when you run a press break, the sole intent is to get it into those guys hands. the typical bad free throw shooters are options 3 and 4 or 4 and 5 on a press break, depending on the type of press.

and in most press breaks, if you have to go to option 4 for example. it is your 4 man breaking to half court from the opposite free throw line area, and when he catches it he will be wide open and option 1 or 2 is gonna have run up to him to get the hand off or short pass in the period of time it takes to foul him.

iceminers26 · 02-22-10, 01:29 PM

He would sit on the bench all game and be cold as ice in a pressure situation, not to mention, it takes away a spot on the team for someone who could contribute during the entire game as opposed to just the closing seconds.

Tree Rollins · 02-22-10, 02:42 PM

If you're talking about the NBA, they won't be able to get the ball to the guy. If your opponent knows you're trying to get a certain guy the ball, they'll just shut him down with their quickest defender. Even world class athletes like Ray Allen sometimes have trouble getting the ball in those situations.

GiveMeaBJ · 02-22-10, 03:01 PM

All I know is if I coach a team at any level I am getting a closer.

Naarmo · 02-22-10, 03:48 PM

Sounds like a great idea,but we won't be able to tell if its really that good until someone actually tries it.

Glitch · 02-22-10, 03:49 PM

bobcats have 2 closers but dont use them.

whatsgood5 · 02-22-10, 03:57 PM

You've got no idea how tough it is to come into a game after sitting on the bench and shoot. You'd probably have to be warming up on the sidelines for a while, but this really doesn't seem like a terrible idea.

Chi_archie · 02-22-10, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by GiveMeaBJ

All I know is if I coach a team at any level I am getting a closer.

if you do get a professional team, not as a coach but as a rich owner maybe.

hire me i'm sbr's best documented free throw shooter

jagaf22 · 02-22-10, 03:59 PM

hahaha good topic

whatsgood5 · 02-22-10, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

if you do get a professional team, not as a coach but as a rich owner maybe. hire me i'm sbr's best documented free throw shooter

What's your percentage usually around? Highly unlikely you're much higher than me

GiveMeaBJ · 02-22-10, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

if you do get a professional team, not as a coach but as a rich owner maybe.

hire me i'm sbr's best documented free throw shooter

Archie I assure you all SBR posters will get a fair tryout, you still have college eligibility left?

Chi_archie · 02-22-10, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by whatsgood5

What's your percentage usually around? Highly unlikely you're much higher than me

i'm just kinda kidding around tough guy...

I haven't played an organized or unorganized game in like 7 years. in college, I didn't play enough to get enough ft's to have a statisically significant number either way.

wasn't as good in High School but i'd say I was around 80% then, in college when I had all the free time is when I was spending 2-5 extra hrs a day shooting 3's, freethrows, and doing drills.

I pick up a ball 2-3 times a year, but I think with 15 mins of practice I can make 90% in non game situations easy.

its the internet, we are all great here bud

whatsgood5 · 02-22-10, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Chi_archie

i'm just kinda kidding around tough guy... I haven't played an organized or unorganized game in like 7 years. in college, I didn't play enough to get enough ft's to have a statisically significant number either way. wasn't as good in High School but i'd say I was around 80% then, in college when I had all the free time is when I was spending 2-5 extra hrs a day shooting 3's, freethrows, and doing drills. I pick up a ball 2-3 times a year, but I think with 15 mins of practice I can make 90% in non game situations easy. its the internet, we are all great here bud

Did you misinterpret that to thinking I was angry at ya? Not sure how ya managed to do that...

Mac4Lyfe · 02-22-10, 04:14 PM

Why not just have a "Designated FT shooter" or a "Pinch free throw shooter" instituted in the NBA. You are allowed to use this guy in crucial moments of the game. I think this would make the game more interesting. They can't currently be on the floor and can't play anymore in the game. How about being able to take a "Mulligan" once a game. These would all bring more drama to the game.

I also like the idea of teams having to use their worst free throw shooter during technical fouls, etc. I always get a kick watching Shaq or Biedrins trying to make free throws. This would have high interest in games...

Chi_archie · 02-22-10, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by whatsgood5

Did you misinterpret that to thinking I was angry at ya? Not sure how ya managed to do that...

no not anger..... arrogance

I mean we all love to relive our glory days and talk about how great we were/are. I set the bar low. I'm a washed up 2nd pg off the bench of a nothing school.