House edge on Pinnacle's Casino's new games

[Justin7]

They recently announced that they have another 30 games. I checked out some of the games, hoping to find a mispricing I could beat.

In Double Joker Poker, they lowered the payout for a 3 of a kind from 2:1 to 1:1. While they increased some of the rarer ones, this game has a house edge of 3.5%, or 3.2% after the rebate. This is worse than I'd expect from Pinnacle, whose casino games typically had a house edge of less than 1%.

In the Deuces Wild game, they lowered the payout of a 4 of a kind to 4:1 (from 5:1). They raised some of the rarer payouts, but the game still has more than a 4% house edge.

On the up-side, their Jacks or Better game has a house edge of 0.45%, which all but disappears with the 0.3% rebate.

[SBR_John]

I had to get them to not allow me to play in there. Thats a nice casino, very addicting.

[Justin7]

They do have a nice casino, and no download is needed. I remember when they first opened, I think every their goal was to get every game under a 0.5% edge. I was surprised to see such a big departure from that old concept.

[JBC77]

I have a hard time bringing myself to gamble in an online casino. Everyones messed around with 10 or 20 bucks, something about it just feels off. Maybe it's because over the years on the forums the topic has been brought up and most posters have called it an outright scam. You would figure an online casino would have to offer higher payouts than an actual brick and mortar casino. Now if they were to offer me live action, viewing the games from a cam.......thats something I might play with more than 10 or 20 dollars. I know they offer this is some euro places but haven't seen anything of that nature being offered to U.S customers. Playing blackjack or craps against software seems square for some reason......

[Ganchrow]

Playing blackjack or craps against software seems square for some reason......

Probably no squarer than playing it against a live action dealer ...

[JBC77]

I have to admit, I have had to stop myself on a few occasions of extreme boredom from playing online casino games....
Most times I will actually open up the software and then force myself to just close it down....

[pico]

i like pinny's bj. but very dangerous because the high limit one is 5000. i remmeber i bet 5k got push...bet again and got a bj. that was the best high i ever gotten.

it is also nice they gave you .3% cash back on all wagers. it usually show up on your account around midnight or 1am fro that day's betting.

i don't like new games, they're usually with worse house edge than bj and craps.

[JBC77]

I think it's just my perception Ganch, when I've dabbled in it.....it always feels like I'm in New York for a Yankees game. The 3-card monty guy and his two actors spot that I'm from Connecticut and try to show me how much money I can win.

[jjgold]

why suckers play these online casinos is behond belief, I guess just action junkies that don't value their money.

[pico]

why suckers play these online casinos is behond belief, I guess just action junkies that don't value their money.

i am up 10k at pinny bj for this year. yes i am a action junky. but i have been tring to force myself not to play it...bad for my heart at the high limit table. i am casino free for a month now.

[Ganchrow]

In Double Joker Poker, they lowered the payout for a 3 of a kind from 2:1 to 1:1. While they increased some of the rarer ones, this game has a house edge of 3.5%, or 3.2% after the rebate. This is worse than I'd expect from Pinnacle, whose casino games typically had a house edge of less than 1%.

Actually, I'm seeing a 1.4024% house edge before rebate (so 1.1024% after).

In the Deuces Wild game, they lowered the payout of a 4 of a kind to 4:1 (from 5:1). They raised some of the rarer payouts, but the game still has more than a 4% house edge.

I have this at 1.0869% before rebate.

On the up-side, their Jacks or Better game has a house edge of 0.45%, which all but disappears with the 0.3% rebate.

Same here. I get 0.4561% before rebate.

[raiders72002]

Roberto at TOW said the Black Jack is rigged.

[Ganchrow]

Roberto at TOW said the Black Jack is rigged.

And if there's one thing you can trust about Roberto it's his statistical analysis.

[raiders72002]

And if there's one thing you can trust about Roberto it's his statistical analysis.

and the books that advertise at TOW.

[SBR_John]

I like ole Rob and we played Blackjack at the Nugget. He doesnt know how to play! He wouldnt hit a 2 vs 10! But he is right, its rigged. It has a hold of 1%+/-. Every game in a casino is "rigged", thats why call it gambling.

[LVHerbie]

I ran a dime up to seven in about 10 minutes plaiying BJ at pinnacle... I won't relay the rest of the story but I had them volunteerily block the casino the next day... not that it matters much since they've now blocked me...

[SBR_John]

I ran a dime up to seven in about 10 minutes plaiying BJ at pinnacle... I won't relay the rest of the story but I had them volunteerily block the casino the next day... not that it matters much since they've now blocked me...

LOL!! Man, I know how that story ends!!

You were smart. It took me about 6 months before I broke down and requested they block me.

[Justin7]

Ganchrow,

I used odds from Wizardofodds to figure out the edges on their non-standard payouts. How did you get those odds? I hope I'm wrong, because those kind of house edges would be atypical for Pinnacle.

[Ganchrow]

I used odds from Wizardofodds to figure out the edges on their non-standard payouts. How did you get those odds? I hope I'm wrong, because those kind of house edges would be atypical for Pinnacle.

I used a program I had once written to analyzing VP. I'm currently not making the software available to the public. I know Mike had a similar program posted on his site but has since taken his down. You can probably find similarly purposed some shareware if you Google for it.

Remember that changes in odds will also modify optimal playing strategy, thereby implying it incorrect to simply cut and paste modified odds into an outcome frequency table for different payout odds.

[jjgold]

They are all rigged period, the more money you bet or the more you win, the cards are then dealt to favor the dealer.

[Justin7]

Remember that changes in odds will also modify optimal playing strategy, thereby implying it incorrect to simply cut and paste modified odds into an outcome frequency table for different payout odds.

I assumed the player was playing the same basic strategy, which could easily account for that difference.

[Ganchrow]

I assumed the player was playing the same basic strategy, which could easily account for that difference.

Yeah, that's precisely the problem with your figures. You just can't do it that way. House edge needs to be based on optimal strategy or else it's meaningless.

Otherwise, one could say that blackjack has a 5% house edge because a player could choose to always hit hard 17s.