How much are SBR ratings affected by $$$$ payments by the books

Doc JS · 08-05-07, 11:15 AM

I haven't been here that long, but this is a topic that comes up with some frequency.

The SBR folks say it doesn't make any difference.

The conspiracy theory folks say otherwise.

It's kinda like religion, it's: What do you believe?

remmy358 · 08-05-07, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Doc JS

I haven't been here that long, but this is a topic that comes up with some frequency.

The SBR folks say it doesn't make any difference.

The conspiracy theory folks say otherwise.

It's kinda like religion, it's: What do you believe?

here is the question: if bodog cut off all payments to SBR, would they still be on the recommended list?

Doc JS · 08-05-07, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by remmy358

here is the question: if bodog cut off all payments to SBR, would they still be on the recommended list?

You'll need John or Bill to answer that one for you...

But as this thread has come up before, their answer is going to be: It would make no difference.

It's up to you if you want to believe that.

JBC77 · 08-05-07, 11:24 AM

I don't think it affects ratings. It's only speculation, but I don't think it would be worth SBR's time to promote books based on $$$ payments. If they did, the headaches created probably wouldn't be worth the money and people wouldn't stick around. At the same time.....I'm sure they don't turn down checks from advertisers. They most likely lay out the ground rules and let them know what happens if they jerk the customers. Besides, as soon as it happens......the customer comes out here and complains.

Omnivorous Frog · 08-05-07, 11:26 AM

I believe large cash payments to sponsors, ala BOS platinum rating at RX are a thing of the previous environment. Now I think it is more click thru revenue on the banners. Out of all the ponds, forums and conforums I have visited this place is the tightest as far as being non sellouts. Some places may even have sheets on these books and then get revenue from losses. If you watched poster NFL player at the RX last season, he was ACE ACE's second ball licker behind death eats a cracker. He just flat out said, go to the top of the page, open some new books and load up on ACE ACE football and you will be rich and famous. Needless to say, the plagiarizing pretend retard lost more than 100% of his NCAA bankroll, got obliterated at NFL and still had the entire staff protecting him and continuing the charade. At least here there is none of that. Would I play at Bodog? No. Not a big fan of Calvin's as he is a modern day Bugsy. As Meyer Lansky told him, Ben, famous is not good.

remmy358 · 08-05-07, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by JBC77

I don't think it affects ratings. It's only speculation, but I don't think it would be worth SBR's time to promote books based on $$$ payments. If they did, the headaches created probably wouldn't be worth the money and people wouldn't stick around. At the same time.....I'm sure they don't turn down checks from advertisers. They most likely lay out the ground rules and let them know what happens if they jerk the customers. Besides, as soon as it happens......the customer comes out here and complains.

i see what you are saying. but when a solid book that has been making nice payments (BODOG) goes downhill...then what...they stay on.

how would you feel if you were new and you came here, saw bodog.com was recommended, went and played there, won, and then had to wait 3 months to get paid???

JBC77 · 08-05-07, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by remmy358

i see what you are saying. but when a solid book that has been making nice payments (BODOG) goes downhill...then what...they stay on.

how would you feel if you were new and you came here, saw bodog.com was recommended, went and played there, won, and then had to wait 3 months to get paid???

Remmy.....I totally understand how you feel and where your coming from man. I've been a customer of Bodog in the past and haven't had any problems with them. If your in the U.S like I am, things have changed for us. There are only a small group of books left that still take customer service and payments to U.S players seriously......

Omnivorous Frog · 08-05-07, 11:38 AM

How did everyone feel when they loaded up in BOS, a platinum rated book with a $10,000 guarantee only to have them Kap out? I practically got banned warning people to stay out. What you need is a non controlled and manipulated forum. You keep the ratings here in mind, but also read the posts. If there is honest feedback, it helps in your decision. If it is all glorious praise, and any negative feedback is edited out, beware.

The key word is recommended. Not required. Something I say to every single person that asks that question. Do your homework and study as if this were the stock market. Google the books and look for any and all feedback. Ask on the forums. If anything was learned from the Bet Pan Am, BOS fiascos is buyer beware, and you can't always digest those spoonfed ratings.

Doc JS · 08-05-07, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Omnivorous Frog

buyer beware

OF,

Best advice of all!

Go in with your eyes open and you hand on your wallet!

Doc JS · 08-05-07, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by JBC77

If your in the U.S like I am, things have changed for us. There are only a small group of books left that still take customer service and payments to U.S players seriously......

JBC77,

Truer words were never spoken.

remmy358 · 08-05-07, 11:56 AM

good thing about this forum is that they don't delete posts and stuff like that..i've seen a lot of SBR bashing that's never been deleted...i admire that

SBR_John · 08-05-07, 02:11 PM

When our opinion differs slightly some rightfully think it must be because of money. But we have been consistent for 8 years on how we rate. Its perfectly fine to be suspicious. We welcome it and enjoy the debates on who should be rated what and why.

Someone said in another thread xyz is ahead of Matchbook because they pay. Ironically, Matchbook is about our best sponsor. From the threads I've read recently its been money well spent for them.

Rating these kind of businesses is not easy. We do make the effort to do it right.

remmy358 · 08-05-07, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

When our opinion differs slightly some rightfully think it must be because of money. But we have been consistent for 8 years on how we rate. Its perfectly fine to be suspicious. We welcome it and enjoy the debates on who should be rated what and why.

Someone said in another thread xyz is ahead of Matchbook because they pay. Ironically, Matchbook is about our best sponsor. From the threads I've read recently its been money well spent for them.

Rating these kind of businesses is not easy. We do make the effort to do it right.

john - thanks for the comments. again, i am not trying to bash your site as i think you guys are by far the best watchdog in the industry...and i dont have a huge beef with betonline...it's the bodog/matchbook thing. if matchbook is one of your best sponsors, then it's just more confusing to why they aren't in the recommended list. is it because they don't offer parlays/bonus's, etc? it's just baffling

SBR_John · 08-05-07, 02:59 PM

Matchbook is moving up steadily. Its hard to compare an exchange. At least we always had a hard time with Mansion and Matchbook. We dont know them, we wouldnt know them if we passed them on the street. We have never seen their facility. We are finally getting comfortable with their model.

As for Bodog/ Matchbook, most of the new players that will join both today from this website will give Bodog higher marks. That's just the reality and not what you want to hear I know. It wouldnt suprize me to see Matchbook rated higher than Bodog by the end of the year. As I said in the Bodog thread it appears that Bodogs worse days are still ahead of them with regards to processing. SBR is concerned and has made that very clear to Bodog. Lets see where we are with both later in the year.

bigloser · 08-05-07, 04:39 PM

Bodog should not be A, that is clear to everyone (please feel free to disagree if you think otherwise)
SBR ratings can no longer be relied upon the way they were in the past.
SBR is STILL the bets watchdog site because we can say what we believe and the post will not be removed

jjgold · 08-05-07, 04:50 PM

rx is influenced by money as is EOG, if a book writes them a check tjhey say it is a great book regardless on how bad it really is. Very low integrity at rx and eog, most books do not respect them at all.

SBR is not influenced by money.

SBR Lou · 08-05-07, 05:55 PM

As I said in the Bodog thread it appears that Bodogs worse days are still ahead of them with regards to processing. SBR is concerned and has made that very clear to Bodog. Lets see where we are with both later in the year.

Hi,

First, as others have said, I'm just offering constructive criticism. I wouldn't rather be on any of these other 'watchdog' related sites, I enjoy it here.

If you can honestly state that the worse days are still ahead, then wouldn't it make sense to at the very least remove them from the recommended list and drop their rating a notch or two? Whats there to really gain by waiting it out another few months? If they honestly turn things around, which you seem skeptical of, why not reassess them in that couple of months to see if they're worthy of a bump back up?

We understand the financial position SBR is in, and many regulars and frequent bettors are already aware of the state Bodog is in, however I believe the average joe bettors who simply see the reccomended list and instantly deposit are potentially at risk here. At the very least put a note on their full review for them.

Just my .02.

SBR_John · 08-05-07, 07:11 PM

Its funny because we brought Bodog up very slowly from the days everyone was touting them as the next coming. We did not believe their numbers and even interviewed their charter accountant in Vancouver years ago. We were criticized then for under rating them. Criticism is good. We have definite opinions based on experience and we need to hear yours.

I like Bodog and think their break out into music and fighting is a smart move. One has to wonder why they are so cheap that they can not be a sponsor of SBR Forum

(joke)..

They are a good book and one of the few setup to take good care of small players. Their test is upcoming. They could see their rating slide considerably if they can not solve the processing issue. We have given books a pass on that while they get solutions in place.

bigloser · 08-05-07, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

We have given books a pass on that while they get solutions in place.

OK fair enough, but when does this pass expire ? We could give SBR a break if we knew how long you will give them.

SBR_John · 08-05-07, 09:41 PM

Withdraws generally start to get heavy at the start of October.

The way I see it the books should clearly inform players how long a payout takes and we will hold them to that. If it takes 4 days or 40 days the player needs to know that up front.

We have developed the Terms of Service monitoring tool to identify when rules like payout times are changed. If a player signed up on Sept 7 under the terms that he will be paid in 10 days then he should be paid in 10 days.

I think we are ready for the kind of complaints players are going to expierence this year.

To sum it up, we do not have a date that books need to have their processor issues solved. The problem is complex and changes. But we do expect book to be honest before a player sends in his money. Then let the player decide if he wants to wait 40 days for a payout.

ritehook · 08-05-07, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by jjgold

rx is influenced by money as is EOG, if a book writes them a check tjhey say it is a great book regardless on how bad it really is. Very low integrity at rx and eog, most books do not respect them at all.

SBR is not influenced by money.

I agree with this to a great extent. (I've visited here for years before I ever posted.)

The EOG headmaster is fairly shameless in his efforts to keep sponsors. Rx has "Wil the Shill" bearing down hard on anyone who critiques an advertiser.

If a book is criticized unfairly, by someone with a personal ax to grind for example, the forum here seems to be generally self-correcting, with the clients of a partifcular book either critiqueing the bashing, or affirming it.

I don't know how much if at all advertising $$$$ affects the SBR rating. This ain't Consumer Reports, but I'd guess it to be the best we have, by far.

It has credibility, at least by comparison. And cred carries high value. It's something very hard to build, but once attained has to be cultivated and nurtured. Becuase it can be damaged or destroyed in a trice.

Bill Dozer · 08-05-07, 10:29 PM

Unlike the old days, all books are not on the same path with processing. One book's strong period has been another's darkest hour. Other top books, and poster top books, had similar issues months before Bodog's began and players took a similar stance. SBR is challenged to look at the core issues in this new environment while providing information and this venue for players to be able to make their own decisions. We know it is important to show history of the books and have added tabs here to include a timeline of our poster feedback and opinions as well.

Bodog and Bodog players appear to have gotten past this rough patch and now we will see what the sportsbooks have in their bag going into football.

colt29 · 08-05-07, 10:40 PM

It seems that if you read the info from the posters on here you will know what offshores are credible.Bodog hasn't paid in months , so don't use them. Calvin is a closet fag anyways. Go local.

tacomax · 08-05-07, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by SBR_John

I like Bodog and think their break out into music and fighting is a smart move. One has to wonder why they are so cheap that they can not be a sponsor of SBR Forum

(joke)..

So, Bodog are rated A but won't sponsor the forum. If it was all about the money then wouldn't Bodog be downgraded and the likes of Justbet and Matchbook (who do sponsor the forum) be upgraded to A status? Seems that that fact alone makes the original post lose a great deal of credibility.

sean72 · 08-06-07, 01:14 AM

Bo dog only suck if your american for the rest of the free world its A+ all the way for bodogs

sean72 · 08-06-07, 01:23 AM

If WSEX is still an A+ then maybe this thread has merit

TheOffshoreGambler · 08-06-07, 08:01 AM

I was referred here by some friends of mine who are larger gamblers. They told me any recommended book here is good. I was happy at Pinnacle which i see was and still is I guess your top rated book.

Zeroed · 08-06-07, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by sean72

If WSEX is still an A+ then maybe this thread has merit

Only Pinnacle (and Matchbook but they are not a "book"..) is better for professional bettors than Wsex..A+ all the way for me.

Having read at many gambling forums over the years, SBR is the most trustful of them all by far..RX EOG etc. everyone else will take any crap book (SBG Global!) if they pay enough.

Of course SBR will think twice before downgrading a sponsor, but it´s a fact that they only take top books from the start..so they dont have to worry much about that i´d guess.

nikosgr · 08-06-07, 11:29 AM

Some books must be recommended.
Pinnacle and other top books and bookmakers are not available for US players anymore and someone must close the gap.
No question about it, after the stupid law the industry was f....
SBR had to upgrade some C books to B and some B books to A.if the industry dies, SBR dies too.They must keep the industry alive, even if bestline gets A.
If you dont like the situation, move to Europe.Here, nothing changed.

SBR_John · 08-06-07, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by tacomax

So, Bodog are rated A but won't sponsor the forum. If it was all about the money then wouldn't Bodog be downgraded and the likes of Justbet and Matchbook (who do sponsor the forum) be upgraded to A status? Seems that that fact alone makes the original post lose a great deal of credibility.

Quite a few books have pulled their sponsorship from forum sites. Bodog does support SBRLines. There are quite a few books looking to get on the SBRForum for football so no problem there.

Its fair that posters question motives. I would too. SBR is not a site run out of pure kindness. We do have a unique model. Bill is in charge of ratings and Sean is in charge of business. They work in different offices, have their own staff and do not answer to each other. But despite our best efforts it seems at times a bias is unavoidable. Cascade is a glaring example. If this was truly a non-profit site would Cascade have been downgraded sooner? Even worse, if they were not a forum and lines sponsor would they have been downgraded sooner?

Looking ahead SBR has to do a better job at both getting the information on declining operations and acting on it

Zeroed · 08-06-07, 12:38 PM

It´s not an easy job for sure..how to rate books for both squares and Pros at the same time?

Sometimes i think the value of the lines has not enough influence on the rating of some books, like for example Bet365 or William Hill. If you bet on the soft lines there (and they are the only value imo at -110 or even worse), you are cut down to basically nothing fast.
Not Elite imo.

SBR_John · 08-06-07, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Zeroed

It´s not an easy job for sure..how to rate books for both squares and Pros at the same time?

Sometimes i think the value of the lines has not enough influence on the rating of some books, like for example Bet365 or William Hill. If you bet on the soft lines there (and they are the only value imo at -110 or even worse), you are cut down to basically nothing fast.
Not Elite imo.

Good point. Others agree with you. The point has come up at least a hundred times with the square books such as VIP, Bet365 and Bodog.

If 95% of our visitors were sharp we would skew the ratings towards only those shops that welcome the sharp crowd. But in fact, the demographics of this site and the public at large is just the opposite. Probably closer to 98% of all players will never run even the slightest risk of having their limits cut or being shown the door.

Posters would be better players if they learned from you guys the value of the numbers and of course used SBRLines.(yea, a shameless plug)

20Four7 · 08-06-07, 06:09 PM

[QUOTE=SBR_John;313170
But we do expect book to be honest before a player sends in his money. Then let the player decide if he wants to wait 40 days for a payout.[/QUOTE]

I think you should hold more books to that standard. But unfortunately I don't think you do. I had not response from an e mail sent to assitance regarding interwetten requiring me to make a bank wire withdrawl when they clearly state that I can withdraw via moneybookers. Yet they are a B on your site. Most sites change (or at least have vague enought T&C) that they will use them to suit their conditions. It's bullshit.

Willie Bee · 08-06-07, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by 20Four7

I had not response from an e mail sent to assitance regarding interwetten requiring me to make a bank wire withdrawl when they clearly state that I can withdraw via moneybookers...Most sites change (or at least have vague enought T&C) that they will use them to suit their conditions. It's bullshit.

20four7, do you mean you didn't get a response about the issue from us or from Interwetten?

I can tell you first-hand how difficult it is for us to keep up with the changing banking information. I could spend eight hours a day on that and still be behind the times in our own reviews. If we dropped the ball, please resend the info to assistance[at]sportsbookreview[dot]com.

As for wagering rules, we' have that automated now at sportsbookreview.com, so if you haven't seen that section at SBR yet you might give it a quick peek. Among the things on our to-do list is to improve our information on banking methods and try to update them here far quicker than we're doing right now.