Withdrawal Charges A Scam?

[ritehook]

Or at least a way for books to augment their bottom line?

Some offshores are even charging to send a check! Huh?

"Oh," they may say, "with the passage last year of UIGEA it's become harder to transfer funds."

Really? Then why do A or B rated books like Bestlines, Wagerweb, and Guardian still offer one FREE withdrawal every month? (I'm sure there are other offshores that offer the same - will be intersted to hear of them.)

Most of the people who will be posting up offshore come August and Sept will not even inquire about wd fees - they'll be mainly concerned with bonuses. But for those of us who expect to win we now have to factor in a book's policy of withdrawals. Some of these books, including high-rated ones, are charging as much as $50 - for a mailed check!

That spells S-C-A-M.

[ShamsWoof10]

I think the days of bonuses are over and if all we have to deal with is a wd fee I can handle that but what I am concerned with is when we have to start paying for deposits...

They are going to (actually are) use this US Leg. as a crutch or to hide behind...

[JC]

Thank you for your baseless speculation. You don't know what you are talking about.

If you think it's so easy to send out checks, why don't you start a processing company? I am sure books would be happy to pay you for your services. Of course if you think $50 is too high, you can charge them less.

Moving money costs money. It costs a lot more in today's environment than it did last year, which wasn't cheap. There are hidden fees the books absorb that you never even see. There are fees when the money goes in and out.

Some books offer better lines. Some books offer one free withdrawal a month. Some books offer bonuses. Some books offer safety and security.

Do your own homework and see what fits for you.

But to come in here and call it a scam is nothing short of ignorant.

[ritehook]

Thank you for your baseless speculation. You don't know what you are talking about.

If you think it's so easy to send out checks, why don't you start a processing company? I am sure books would be happy to pay you for your services. Of course if you think $50 is too high, you can charge them less.

Moving money costs money. It costs a lot more in today's environment than it did last year, which wasn't cheap. There are hidden fees the books absorb that you never even see. There are fees when the money goes in and out.

Some books offer better lines. Some books offer one free withdrawal a month. Some books offer bonuses. Some books offer safety and security.

Do your own homework and see what fits for you.

But to come in here and call it a scam is nothing short of ignorant.

Uh, Howard, "some books" also offer all or most on the menu you offer, as well as free withdrawals.

And of course I'm way out of line of suggesting an offshore book would ever perpetrate a scam! By George, the owners of these establishments are all highly ethical gentlemen.

When the US finally legalizes and regulates internet gambling (whether that be in 2 years or 20, it's a comin') do you think the offshores that will survive (and some of them will, the top ones) are going to charge fifty bucks to send a check?

Some clearly feel they got the bettors by the balls now. But the tide will one day turn. I'll stay offshore when the tide does turn, but only with the books that are rightiously eating the wd fees at this point in time. Esp for checks, tho some of them do so for **, **, etc

The real Howard would never be so naive about human behavior as this poster.

Get thee back to thy playpen, child.

[ShamsWoof10]

Thank you for your baseless speculation. You don't know what you are talking about.

If you think it's so easy to send out checks, why don't you start a processing company? I am sure books would be happy to pay you for your services. Of course if you think $50 is too high, you can charge them less.

Moving money costs money. It costs a lot more in today's environment than it did last year, which wasn't cheap. There are hidden fees the books absorb that you never even see. There are fees when the money goes in and out.

Some books offer better lines. Some books offer one free withdrawal a month. Some books offer bonuses. Some books offer safety and security.

Do your own homework and see what fits for you.

But to come in here and call it a scam is nothing short of ignorant.

JC I tend to agree with some of this but I would like to ask a question as I think you may have the answer... I know I don't... The books for not just a short promotional time but 10+ years have been offering free payouts as well as other goodies... It wasn't free to move money then either so what happened that now, AFTER A DECADE PLUS, this little bit (relatively speaking) matters..?

[vanzack]

Thank you for your baseless speculation. You don't know what you are talking about.

If you think it's so easy to send out checks, why don't you start a processing company? I am sure books would be happy to pay you for your services. Of course if you think $50 is too high, you can charge them less.

Moving money costs money. It costs a lot more in today's environment than it did last year, which wasn't cheap. There are hidden fees the books absorb that you never even see. There are fees when the money goes in and out.

Some books offer better lines. Some books offer one free withdrawal a month. Some books offer bonuses. Some books offer safety and security.

Do your own homework and see what fits for you.

But to come in here and call it a scam is nothing short of ignorant.

Bingo.

[SBR_John]

I believe the days of the free withdraw are numbered. But books that charge $50 and more are shooting off their foot. I know I get insulted when I get charged $75 for a $5k bank wire.Its not really the $75 bucks, its the the fact that Im getting gouged out of some of my hard fought winnings. Makes me think the book is a sore loser.

[pags11]

books profit margins are drying up, so they are looking for ways to help their bottom line...in the process though, they may lose some business...the solid books will find a way to pay customers in a fairly inexpensive manner...

[spliff]

its the the fact that Im getting gouged out of some of my hard fought winnings. Makes me think the book is a sore loser.

agree 100%, I can't believe the shit I'm seeing lately.

[JC]

John,

I could explain why a $50 or $75 fee could very well be justified for a $5,000 wire, but I am not going to spell it out here. Let me clean out my PM's.

No book is making money on withdrawals. It's all going to offset increased costs.

And yes, the costs which were already high have increased significantly.

How did books do it for years? The ones who offered everything and seemed like they were giving away the store probably were. Every good book has a niche, and excels in some area better than others. Find the one that suits you.

If it's cheap withdrawals, fine. But you will be paying for it somewhere else.

[ShamsWoof10]

John,

I could explain why a $50 or $75 fee could very well be justified for a $5,000 wire, but I am not going to spell it out here. Let me clean out my PM's.

No book is making money on withdrawals. It's all going to offset increased costs.

And yes, the costs which were already high have increased significantly.

How did books do it for years? The ones who offered everything and seemed like they were giving away the store probably were. Every good book has a niche, and excels in some area better than others. Find the one that suits you.

If it's cheap withdrawals, fine. But you will be paying for it somewhere else.

You may be very right JC but the cost of Whole Milk "WHOLESALE" went up for the third time in as many months to 3.99 so how is Wal-Mart selling it for 2.62... That loss is nothing and they would gladly give it to get people in...

The books we call A+ have been offering free withdraws for years and maybe it's because the books had to attract the public in first and now that they are in and the competition is less with other books falling that now they charge because they can... Even books that don't offer much in the lines of bonuses or anything special will likely follow suite if they think they can...

This is like a street dealer giving out a drug to hook the guy then once he's hooked he can jack it up...

If the increased cost of sending a bank wire is that big of a deal that they can't eat some of it then it's hard to imagine that book being financially secure...

[Dark Horse]

No book is making money on withdrawals. It's all going to offset increased costs.

And yes, the costs which were already high have increased significantly.

And here I was thinking that the house had a distinct advantage. Yep, I seem to remember having read that somewhere.

So is this why bookmaker charges $50 (read that somewhere as well) for a book-to-book transfer? Even when other A books offer it for free..

How did books do it for years? The ones who offered everything and seemed like they were giving away the store probably were.

Sure, there have been a few dumb books. But that's not what this is about. How did we quantum leap from high withdrawal fees to giving away the house? Two completely different things.

If it's cheap withdrawals, fine. But you will be paying for it somewhere else.

Would have to disagree with yet another blanket statement. At least I haven't noticed the effect you describe at my books. Maybe I'm just extra lucky?

[JC]

We quantum leaped because someone else brought up everything taht shops used to give away.

What percent of a book's top line (gaming revenue, not handle) do you think goes to money transfer fees and processors?

[Dark Horse]

I don't know that percentage.

What I do know is that when a business executes the same financial transaction many times, it can almost always arrange reduced fees. That's just a basic business principle.

Let's just say that some books are more interested in this than others. Why? If you ask me, high withdrawal fees could certainly be used as a threshold against withdrawals, especially for smaller players. Keep the money in the book, and most players will lose it.

[ShamsWoof10]

high withdrawal fees could certainly be used as a threshold against withdrawals, especially for smaller players. Keep the money in the book, and most players will lose it.

This is a good point and makes a lot more sense...

[JC]

I don't know that percentage.

What I do know is that when a business executes the same financial transaction many times, it can almost always arrange reduced fees. That's just a basic business principle.

Let's just say that some books are more interested in this than others. Why? If you ask me, high withdrawal fees could certainly be used as a threshold against withdrawals, especially for smaller players. Keep the money in the book, and most players will lose it.

So you have all of the answers but don't have any idea of the underlying costs.

It is not a normal business environment out there where you can shop for bids. Think more along the lines of war zone or disaster economies.

[bigboydan]

The way I look at is quite simple really JC. Just like when the gas prices went through the roof here in the states. Most couriers like UPS/Fedex started to charge a so called "fuel tax" for deliveries. I can't blame a company for passing along the cost to it's customers at all. Hell, It's just part of doing business.

[ShamsWoof10]

Come on guys let's call it like it is... They pick up fees which is small because they feel that they are going to get the rest when you lose... This is the prime factor and the player must not be losing as much as he use to... In this case they have more to worry about then fees and using them and limits on payouts can curb that... This talk about these little as* fees.. You really buy that JC..?

This is not like a normal business like a returant where no fat guy will eat you out of half of your worth.... Get someone with balls, 50K and a lucky streak and he could sting some book... In a normal business a customer doesn't walk in and have a chance to walk out with a part of your business....

[Dark Horse]

So you have all of the answers but don't have any idea of the underlying costs.

It is not a normal business environment out there where you can shop for bids. Think more along the lines of war zone or disaster economies.

Hey, if you have access to the financial records of books, by all means feel free to share them. Just the A and B books would be fine with me.

If you can back up that war zone statement with hard numbers I would be among the first to take all my money out.

[SBR_John]

JC, I have several international bank accounts. None of them charge me anywhere close to $75 for a $5000 wire. I feel cheated when I get over charged for a hard earned withdraw. If it was $35 then OK.

I just think the books need to make their money booking, not on my hard earned withdraw.

[Mason]

The US Govs crackdown on processing has had it's intended effect.
1) It's much harder for the books to find processing.
2) It's much harder for the book to get paid by the processors.
3) The fees are skyrocketing which hurts the books and the players.
4) The players feel the pinch and many times direct their anger towards the books, instead of the US Govt.

* If the book is charging more than the processor is charging them it's a different story altogether! $75 for a bank wire if the book is paying $50 is unacceptable!

You shouod see many books raising their min deposit and payout amounts to discourage guys who deposit and withdraw $50, 10 times a week. The procesing charges simply add up.

The smart thing to do now for the books now (IMO) is to do a free monthly payout from their preferred payment method. i.e. a credit card depositor sends $300. Books should look to payout their CC depositors via their cheapest method (Let's say NETeller, and then convert the CC depositor into the NT system and get them depositing via NT the next time to save money and risk.)

Just my .02

[ritehook]

Agree with posts # 12, 14, 19. And last post, where the "smart thing" for books to do is to offer one free wd a month. That will prevent abuse by the heavy money movers.

Some books, as I noted in the OP, do just that. It would be nice to have a complete list of A and B books that do offer a free once-a-month wd, rather than just the three I know of. (Or when I have the precious commodity called Time I'll try to widen the list of three.)

As one poster accurately stated, some books are charging high wd fees because "they can." If they meet enough resistance to it, "they won't."

Whales and full time scalpers may not be bothered by these inflated fees, but most of the rest of us are.

I realize that the US govt has caused an increase in the costs and the headaches of processing. I also believe that some books are using this as an excuse to lay on more charges than are justified.

It's a current cost of being in a very high profit biz. Just like the porn biz, where balls more than brain power will get you rich.

So I now expect my local to tell me he's increasing the juice because jail sentences and fines have increased for those in his profession. Or that he has to charge me for gas for his car due to the increased expense of coming on Tuesday to the meet place to settle-up.

Gimme a break!