Is Orlando A Lock Tonight?

[daggerkobe]

Billups not clutch? WTF.

[lakerboy]

This is the kind of argument I hate. Lebron leads in any end of game stat you want to bring up. He is much improved in the last 2 years. Lebron is the single most dominating player in the 4th quarter in the NBA. He also has more game winners than kobe over the last 5 years with a higher percentage. Furthermore, he is just barely hitting his prime now.

Williams he is the only one allowed to touch the ball in the fourth for cleveland he better be getting the winning shots. Last year against Orlando the guy was missing free throws left right and center.

Stats in the conf finals

Lebron James 69-95 at stripe for 72.6%
Kobe Bryant 67-72 at stripe for 93.1%.

When Lebron has this headline let me know bro

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290523007

[The Seer]

With one shot left, I'll take Kobe anyday over anybody playing now.

[williams22]

Billups not clutch? WTF.

You heard me. He is undeserving of his nickname. He was given it a while ago after hitting two big shots fairly close to each other. He has done practically nothing since. In the last 5 years, he is somewhere between 40th and 50th in game winners, going 6 for 37 for 16%. Like I said, he is not clutch.

This is why I hate when people argue over this. People seem to be content with the old adage that Kobe is clutch and Billups is "Mr. Big Shot", but they never back it up with stats. Billups is not clutch. Lebron owns the 4th quarter.

[williams22]

Everyone can deny the stats all you want, Lebron is the single best clutch player in the game no matter how you slice it. Sorry Kobe-lovers, but enjoy the greatness we are witnessing.

[hockey216]

Cleve not on same level

no in sports.

I also don't bet against quality teams in revenge situations too often either... cleve obviously wants revenge at orlando.

[daggerkobe]

The fact of the matter is, Lebron began his career 3 of 27FG when taking the final shot to win or tie. 0-13 FG from 3pt. The problem with your 5 min "clutch" stats is what if Lebron scores 20 pts but bricks the game winning shot? Does that still mean he was clutch? I dont think so.

If you want to witness clutch, here you go:



i doubt you will find one of Lebron that is even half as long.

[lyon804]

I agree with you "DaAggerKobe", but Lebron hasn't been around as long Kobe. Not playing devil's advocate here because I believe Kobe Bryant is ever bit as good as Michael Jordan ever was. Not too many people would agree to that, but from perspective there simply isn't anything he can't match Jordan on except the 6 Rings and now he is 2/3 there with several good years left he wants it and I think he does. Kobe's ego is as big as his basketball.

[williams22]

Lebron has more game winners in the past 5 years than Kobe and a higher % on them. Game-Set-Match

[Brakon00]

williams22 .... u might be the most retarted poster on this entire site....KOBE DOMINATES OVER LEBRON......MAYBE LEBRON WILL BE AS AMAZING AS KOBE IN 10 YEARS BUT FOR NOW KOBE IS THE BEST PLAYER IN NBA AND HAS BEEN FOR THE PAST 5-6 YEARS!

[btraband]

looks like they aren't on same level

Cleve not on same level

[Dark Horse]

Pretty much a fix. Two elements identified by Donaghy:

1) motive: revenge on a player who criticized refs publicly.
2) method: two quick fouls on key player (Howard). <= whenever you see this (it's not rare), bet the other side live.

[williams22]

williams22 .... u might be the most retarted poster on this entire site....KOBE DOMINATES OVER LEBRON......MAYBE LEBRON WILL BE AS AMAZING AS KOBE IN 10 YEARS BUT FOR NOW KOBE IS THE BEST PLAYER IN NBA AND HAS BEEN FOR THE PAST 5-6 YEARS!

Show me any stats or facts of any kind to back this up. I'm retarded? You post nonsense like this everywhere without a shred of evidence for any of your claims. Lebron's PER last year was second all-time, only Jordan's since greatest year was better. Lebron's 4th quarter and last 5 minutes stats are unreal. Show me some prrof of your ridiculous claim.

PS- Proof is not categorized as dumb statements put in all caps.

[twincities77]

Williams, where do you get that kind of final shot information? I'm curious to see the list.

[williams22]

82games.com

[daggerkobe]

3 for 27FG, 0-13 from 3 and 50% FT (in the 4th) is NOT clutch.

No wonder no NBA GM picked Lebron to take the final shot.

[williams22]

3 for 27FG, 0-13 from 3 and 50% FT (in the 4th) is NOT clutch.

No wonder no NBA GM picked Lebron to take the final shot.

Where are you getting these stats from? If they are even true, they are from a while ago. Check out the game winners link I posted, Lebron has been much better than Kobe in the last 5 years.

Also, I wouldn't come at me with stats from Lebron's first year or two...do you really want to see Kobe's early stats? Not even comparable to the King.

[twincities77]

82games.com

Thanks

[daggerkobe]

Which player would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?

The breakdown was this:

1. Kobe Bryant, 89.7%
2. Paul Pierce, 6.9%
3. Carmelo Anthony, 3.4%

http://dimemag.com/2009/10/no-one-wants-lebron-to-take-a-shot-with-the-game-on-the-line/

[williams22]

Which player would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?

The breakdown was this:

1. Kobe Bryant, 89.7%
2. Paul Pierce, 6.9%
3. Carmelo Anthony, 3.4%

http://dimemag.com/2009/10/no-one-wa...e-on-the-line/

daggerkobe,
Once again, I don't care about a stupid poll. Show me the stats, the facts. You can't, because Lebron has dominated. Want me to go get Kobe's stats from when he entered the league? Yeah, I thought so.

People can deny it all they want, but the King has arrived and he handles the pressure situations better than anyone while having more focus on him than any other player in the game. Go look at the game winner stats, then tell me Kobe is better. You can't deny the facts.

[williams22]

Oh yeah, and by the way, Kobe is BELOW THE LEAGUE AVERAGE in FG % on game-winning shots.

[daggerkobe]

The "3 for 27FG with the final shot to tie or win" was uttered by Bill Plaschke on Around the Horn. So I doubt it's on the internet but I am trying to find it.

But I did find this: http://www.82games.com/random12.htm

Where LeBron was just 4-19FG (.211) so Plaschke's stats wasnt far off considering this stat doesnt say final shot.

Call me crazy, but I'll take the opinion of executives that run million dollar franchises and know about every player in the NBA, college, Europe, Asia, South America, Australia, etc over some random douche on the internet that has his head shoved so far up LeBrick's that he cant handle the truth about him.

And calling a player clutch for how he plays in the final 5 minutes is soooo stupid. If Lebron averages 30pts inthe final 5 minutes of every game but goes 0-30FG on the final shot to win the game would u call him clutch? Of course not.

[williams22]

The "3 for 27FG with the final shot to tie or win" was uttered by Bill Plaschke on Around the Horn. So I doubt it's on the internet but I am trying to find it.

But I did find this: http://www.82games.com/random12.htm

Where LeBron was just 4-19FG (.211) so Plaschke's stats wasnt far off considering this stat doesnt say final shot.

Call me crazy, but I'll take the opinion of executives that run million dollar franchises and know about every player in the NBA, college, Europe, Asia, South America, Australia, etc over some random douche on the internet that has his head shoved so far up LeBrick's that he cant handle the truth about him.

And calling a player clutch for how he plays in the final 5 minutes is soooo stupid. If Lebron averages 30pts inthe final 5 minutes of every game but goes 0-30FG on the final shot to win the game would u call him clutch? Of course not.

First off, why the name-calling? Can't we have a debate without it getting personal?

Second, why the hell would we look back to 2006? Here's that same report, only updated: http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Notice Lebron is at the top. Also notice he is 13 for 31 since the 2006 report, whereas Kobe is 7 for 24. At the time of that last report, Lebron was only 22 years-old and was already shouldering more pressure than any player in the history of the game. He has stepped his game up BIG TIME since.

Stop relying on Kobe's rep and start looking at what he has (or hasn't) done in the past few years.

[daggerkobe]

At some point in Lebron's career he was 4-19FG and 3-27FG (final shot to win or tie) according to Bill. 2006 season was what, Lebron's 4th year in the league? I mean 3-4 years is enough to tell whether a player is clutch or not.

The biggest flaw with the "Final 24 seconds" stats is that if a player makes the game winning shot with 25 or more seconds left, its not counted. If he wins it on the FT line its not counted. If they counted "game winning shots" no matter when it happens, Kobe would lead by a mile.

I dont know what age has to do with anything..... Kobe was busy winning CHAMPIONSHIPS when he was 22.

[tsn101]

I don't know what the argument is but looking at the stats, best closer is Ginobili and best final shooter is Carmelo. Some guys are to obsessed with Kobe and Lebron.

[williams22]

At some point in Lebron's career he was 4-19FG and 3-27FG (final shot to win or tie) according to Bill. 2006 season was what, Lebron's 4th year in the league? I mean 3-4 years is enough to tell whether a player is clutch or not.

The biggest flaw with the "Final 24 seconds" stats is that if a player makes the game winning shot with 25 or more seconds left, its not counted. If he wins it on the FT line its not counted. If they counted "game winning shots" no matter when it happens, Kobe would lead by a mile.

I dont know what age has to do with anything..... Kobe was busy winning CHAMPIONSHIPS when he was 22.

Waaaaait a second. Just a minute ago this analysis was good enough for you because it had Kobe above Lebron, but now when I show you THE SAME REPORT that is current it now is flawed logic? In Kobe's first 3 years in the league he wasn't even allowed to take potential game-winning shots. Lebron did a hell of a job for his age and experience early on, and has only improved since and become the best clutch player in the game. Dagger, you seem to only want to look at numbers that support your assumed conclusion, even if it means using stats from 4 years ago. Face it, in the last 3 years, Lebron has dominated Kobe when it comes to clutch time. If you want to deny that because of your fandom that's fine, just realize that there is no evidence to support your claim.

[BrandonLaz]

williams I like the links and the points you did good at swaying my opinion of Lebron slightly. I still say in the playoffs on the big stage Kobe is king and your site shows it by the way. Check out the game winners link and look at Kobe in playoffs compared to Lebron. They both have the same except for a glaring 0-1 from the FT line that cost the Cavs a game giving Kobe the slight edge. Lebron has made tons of strides and will become the best in the clutch one day. Kobe rookie season 2 "air-ball" three pointers in the playoffs to try and win the game. He has since become a killer, but you are correct Lebron deserves more credit than he gets. I had no clue his stats where as good as they are on game winners. He has improved a ton since his earlier years.

[daggerkobe]

Then tell me, why did 29 NBA GMs that could choose Lebron to take their final shot pass on him?

This wasnt about Lebron vs Kobe, you turned it into one when I showed stats that proved Lebron wasnt clutch.

I was merely pointing out to you that someone that was 3 for 27FG in the "clutch" wasnt clutch.

Kobe not being allowed to take clutch shots is silly. He was taking clutch shots as a rookie in the playoffs. By the time he was 22, he was considered one of the best clutch shooters in the league and with a championship. Lebron at 22 was choking his clutch shots or passing up clutch shots to his teammates.

[williams22]

Then tell me, why did 29 NBA GMs that could choose Lebron to take their final shot pass on him?

This wasnt about Lebron vs Kobe, you turned it into one when I showed stats that proved Lebron wasnt clutch.

I was merely pointing out to you that someone that was 3 for 27FG in the "clutch" wasnt clutch.

Kobe not being allowed to take clutch shots is silly. He was taking clutch shots as a rookie in the playoffs. By the time he was 22, he was considered one of the best clutch shooters in the league and with a championship. Lebron at 22 was choking his clutch shots or passing up clutch shots to his teammates.

Kobe shoots 25% with the game on the line over the past 6 years. That's below the league's average. You've only shown stats from Lebron's first 3 years in the league. Since that time, he has been the single best clutch player in the league. Deny it if you wish.

BrandonLaz, I respect you very much for being open minded and letting the facts do the talking. Lebron still doesn't have a ring, this is true. Once he does, there won't be any debate anymore.

[daggerkobe]

29 NBA GMs said no thanx to Lebron with the game on the line.

Deny that.

[williams22]

29 NBA GMs said no thanx to Lebron with the game on the line.

Deny that.

And 29 GMs fail to win a championship every year, so what? I don't think their opinions are necessarily any better informed than the general publics when it comes to this.

Stats are not opinions, they are facts. The facts say that Lebron owns Kobe in the clutch. You have yet to show me anything to make me think otherwise.

[lyon804]

I just wonder if some people would like to have Kobe's, Lebron's baby??

[williams22]

And even more proof: http://82games.com/SCSORT11.HTM

I'm going to stop now, as any rational person should be able to reach the correct conclusion at this point.

[daggerkobe]

No, GMs dont fail to win championships..... players do. Like when Lebron got swept by the Spurs.

Again, GMs >>>>>>>>>> some random e-douche

[williams22]

No, GMs dont fail to win championships..... players do. Like when Lebron got swept by the Spurs.

Again, GMs >>>>>>>>>> some random e-douche

And yet I have the data to prove it and you don't.