US player in non-US book dispute

Doug · 04-13-07, 10:13 AM

The player took the chance via fraud, so can't complain about non-payment. If the book pays, it encourages others to do the same.

A casino doesn't pay a jackpot to underage/ excluded players.

The book could donate the money to some legit charity, maybe of the players' choosing.

Bill Dozer · 04-13-07, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Doug

The player took the chance via fraud, so can't complain about non-payment. If the book pays, it encourages others to do the same.

A casino doesn't pay a jackpot to underage/ excluded players.

The book could donate the money to some legit charity, maybe of the players' choosing.

Good idea for the winnings. I'm assuming the book is going to return the deposit so not to profit from restricted country?

What was the fraudulent activity?

Doug · 04-13-07, 10:22 AM

The player would be lucky to get the deposit back.

Justin7 · 04-13-07, 10:39 AM

In this hypothetical, assume that the player gave a false name (a friend's name), and a false address (including a different country). He might have even used a proxy to avoid detection.

I kind of like the idea of giving it to a charity...Gambler's anonymous?

ShamsWoof10 · 04-13-07, 10:44 AM

So how did the book find out and what on earth is a proxy..?

Doug · 04-13-07, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Justin7

In this hypothetical, assume that the player gave a false name (a friend's name), and a false address (including a different country). He might have even used a proxy to avoid detection.

I kind of like the idea of giving it to a charity...Gambler's anonymous?

That's a bit different. Say the friend is Canadian, and the book is Pinny. The Canadian friend could be visiting the US player, and betting from his US computer.

Then I'd say Pinny should pay the Canadian guy whose name is on the account, then maybe suspend the account/ player because they can if they so desire.

bigboydan · 04-13-07, 11:02 AM

This is exactly why I decided not to go that route in the first place way back when.

This thread right here reminds me of this one.

Doug · 04-13-07, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Bill Dozer

Good idea for the winnings. I'm assuming the book is going to return the deposit so not to profit from restricted country?

What was the fraudulent activity?

Justin used the word fraudulent, I guess to indicate the player was US and knew he shouldn't play at whatever book this is ( Pinny ?).

Value · 04-13-07, 03:03 PM

They can closed the account if they want but they still should pay the full amount of the balance.

increasedodds · 04-13-07, 03:07 PM

Player should have been smarter.

I guarantee I can play at any book I want with 0% chance of detecting I am in the states. There are ways to run your computer with no operating system that will hide your CPUID, HardDrive ID, and you can deal with the IP address.

What should happen?

If the book is legit, they should pay the player in full his balance at the time they learned he was in the US. Most likely the book could have known at deposit and chose to allow the bets.

-Sean

ShamsWoof10 · 04-13-07, 03:10 PM

I guess I am wondering how they determined it was or was not him... Was it because they saw this account with activity originating from the US..? Did they trace his IP and find that it was not from a Canadian IP address..? I guess my question is what specifically triggered this book to consider his account a US or even a fraudulent account..?

IncOdds.. What do you mean you can "deal with the IP address"..? Wouldn't buying a new computer take care of the first part..?

bigloser · 04-13-07, 03:20 PM

Not enough info, would need to see sites T &Cs. Most are badly written. eg some sites say US citizens - so UK Citizens can bet from the US but US citizens cannot bet even when in Canada UK etc, some sites say US residents so Canadian and UK Citizens cannot bet if resident in US but can bet from US if NOT resident.

Dark Horse · 04-13-07, 03:34 PM

I have a book (won't mention name, but it is a good one) that agreed to take my action, even from the US, as long as I signed up with a foreign address. I respect that very much because it shows me the book is willing to give this f*cked up US government the finger. This was all arranged in the open, and I saved the chat log just in case.

Back to the question. The player should be paid in full. If money goes to charity or not, that is his decision. Why? Because all the player did was get around the US law. That doesn't really qualify as 'fraud', does it? That's what this comes down to. The book found out. So close the account and pay the guy. He didn't cheat the book. He cheated the US law, which, if I remember correctly, was cheated in in the most underhanded of ways.

DrSlamm · 04-13-07, 03:36 PM

pay him

the only person he is trying to defraud is the US GOVT. these books should be helping us give them the finger not discouraging it.

David · 04-13-07, 07:17 PM

How did he fund the account?

Santo · 04-13-07, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Doug

The player took the chance via fraud, so can't complain about non-payment. If the book pays, it encourages others to do the same.

A casino doesn't pay a jackpot to underage/ excluded players.

The book could donate the money to some legit charity, maybe of the players' choosing.

An online casino would refund the deposit precedent says.

increasedodds · 04-13-07, 09:43 PM

If they booked the bets, they should pay the bets. If they don't want to pay to the US, they can demand he picks up the winnings outside the US. That way they are covered.

Books are not obligated to make sure no one from the US goes on their site - that's the gov's problem.

-Sean

Doug · 04-13-07, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Santo

An online casino would refund the deposit precedent says.

I was more eluding to the case of a land casino ( like Vegas) when an underage player wins a million dollar jackpot, I believe they don't get paid.

I can see the logic of saying pay the guy in full, and boot him, but it invites others to do the same. If they refund the deposit only, that should provide a message that playing there from the US is pointless.

I'm guessing this is Pinny, they will do as they see fit. I choose not to play where I am clearly unwelcome.

Interesting case !

increasedodds · 04-13-07, 10:35 PM

Recent case law made them pay a jackpot to an underage person in FL. They were forced to pay his parents.

Sean

tacomax · 04-13-07, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by increasedodds

Books are not obligated to make sure no one from the US goes on their site - that's the gov's problem.

-Sean

If a book says that they don't want US players then it's their obligation to make sure that no-one from the US goes on their site. The government position is irrelevant. If a player fraudulently signed up at a site using fake ID then they should take their medicine.

The guy should have his deposit paid back and leave it at that. If the book wants to give the winnings to charity then that's another matter. But paying the person in full will just encourage a whole host of other people just like this one.

Dark Horse · 04-13-07, 11:00 PM

If the book is afraid that others may try the same, it should regrade the wagers at full juice or even -115; assuming that we're talking about a low juice book. Or if it is a full juice shop, regrade all wagers at -120. That should be warning enough for US people to stay away. To keep winnings is never acceptable.

This can even be put in the rules. US players who get caught playing at Pinnacle, assuming that this is Pinnacle, will not only have their accounts closed, but will pay an extra 10 cents juice on all wagers placed.

RickySteve · 04-13-07, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Dark Horse

If the book is afraid that others may try the same, it should regrade the wagers at full juice or even -115; assuming that we're talking about a low juice book. Or if it is a full juice shop, regrade all wagers at -120. That should be warning enough for US people to stay away. To keep winnings is never acceptable.

This can even be put in the rules. US players who get caught playing at Pinnacle, assuming that this is Pinnacle, will not only have their accounts closed, but will pay an extra 10 cents juice on all wagers placed.

Worst idea ever.

Dark Horse · 04-13-07, 11:52 PM

Thank you.

Any reason why?

Seems a lot better to me than not paying someone his winnings. Plus it keeps US players away.

You come up with a better idea. Should be easy, given that this was the worst ever.

mbr_18 · 04-14-07, 11:25 AM

Refund Deposit...give winning to SBR for all the hard work they do

...if thats a conflict of interest I'll take the winnings!