Dr J Irving Leaves LeBron James Off Of All-Time 1st And 2nd Team

[Ghenghis Kahn]

The game has evolved a ton in just the last decade. Guys can make buckets at a MUCH higher clip. You may think guys arent playing defense today but great defense just cannot stop great offense. You cannot stop the players of today. They are too skilled. There is no one in the old days that could defend a Kyrie, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Wall, etc. The game has evolved. Most old guys wouldn’t even make it to today’s NBA. I know it sucks to say it but it’s the truth.

Like I said, there are only few moves every NBA players practice, crossover, between the legs crossover, behind the back crossover, stepbacks. They're not that hard to learn...

[Roger T. Bannon]

You can't compare players today with players of the past. You have to project ability. You look at Babe Ruth and think he would not be a great player today. But Babe Ruth threw 96 mph and was the best pitcher in the American League. He drank and smoked cigarettes. What could he do in today's game with his talent. A lot.

All you have to do is watch these guys play and see how skinny they were. What they could do today is leaps and bounds higher. They would be much more talented and even more skillful today just because of training.

[lakerboy]

Are you nuts? Bird was unworldly. He was an incredible watch. He could take over a game with his shooting, his passing or making a timely steal. If Bird didn’t have his injuries, he would have racked up numbers very few could reach. Go watch Bird vs Dominique game 7 in 1988. Bird willed the Celtics to victory after Wilkins went GOAT. One of the greatest games ever. Bird was a baaaad man.

I saw that game live. You probably forgot what kevin mchale did in the game.

[Mac4Lyfe]

I saw that game live. You probably forgot what kevin mchale did in the game.

I only remember Bird and Dominique going back and forth in the 4th quarter. I watched the game live as well and I remember saying to myself over and over. Bird is a bad mutherfukker. Bird is a bad mutherfukker. I was living in Atlanta at the time and most guys who lived there could only shake their heads and give Bird his props. I can’t tell you how many black guys was saying... that’s a bad ass white boy.

[Hman]

My first job out of college was in Aiken SC. Little kid Kevin Garnett would sometimes come to a basketball court there (I think he had a cousin that lived in Aiken, which is 1.5 hours from Greenville, where he lived). He was like 12 or 13. Short and skinny. Through the years the kid grew like a bean pole and was hitting his head on the rim and was probably 16. Everyone said he was going to the NBA back then. I thought he was too skinny and soft. Next thing I know, he was drafted out of HS. I'm still kinda shocked to see him make it big which seemed so fast.

That's cool when you meet them before they make it big.

Played street ball daily with a friend Chris Barnes who was dunking any way he wanted by 7th grade.
5 of us would drive around on Sundays out of town looking for pickup games.
He carried our high school team to state and lost only to a private school North Florida where he still had 200yds rushing against recruited talent.
He went on to play at New Mexico State and drafted by Ravens.


I've met Tracy McGrady (local where I've lived Lakeland/Auburndale)

RB Gary Anderson who played for Tampa Bay Bandits & SD Chargers (there's a popular pic of him diving into end zone from 5 years line)
He had a huge basketball court in back yard with his #40 painted on it and actually shot a few baskets with him.
He had just returned from one of those superstars competitions when it used to be a big thing as you may remember)

Tom Flash Gordon - played against in high school and rode with my best friend who was his rival when they both represented the district in state playoffs.

Dwight Howard when he played in Orlando.

Met Ewing & Barkley same time in Bahamas when they were playing at the tables. This was actually during an EOG bash.

Jordan was right there as well but couldn't get close.

Jeter the same morning (have pics) when he ate breakfast next to us (us being The Shrink's kids/in-laws)

Many Tampa Bay Bucs players

Not once have I had a bad experience

They say Warren Sapp is an ass but the 1 time I met him he was cool

All good experiences

[Hman]

[Roger T. Bannon]

The game has evolved a ton in just the last decade. Guys can make buckets at a MUCH higher clip. You may think guys arent playing defense today but great defense just cannot stop great offense. You cannot stop the players of today. They are too skilled. There is no one in the old days that could defend a Kyrie, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Wall, etc. The game has evolved. Most old guys wouldn’t even make it to today’s NBA. I know it sucks to say it but it’s the truth.

The game has evolved a ton in just the last decade. Guys can make buckets at a MUCH higher clip.

FG% 46% in 2021. FG% 49% 1981

3FG% 37% 3FG% 26%

NBA players today specialize in three pointers. NBA players of the past were much better shooters.

The elite players were just as skillful and had better overall scoring ability. They were not as well trained.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Like I said, there are only few moves every NBA players practice, crossover, between the legs crossover, behind the back crossover, stepbacks. They're not that hard to learn...

Even Michael Jordan didn’t have handles like the guys today. Today’s player practice moves the old guys never ever even dreamed of doing. I’m not sure where you are getting that there’s only a few moves? There are hundreds of moves in basketball. Take dribbling, I can think of a dozen moves but when you combine them 12 basic moves become 144. Combine that with another move and now you have 1000+ combinations. Then you have moves after the dribble, moves into your shot, post moves, passing moves, 2 person moves, 3 people triangle, team moves. There’s dozens of moves without the ball.

[Roger T. Bannon]

Even Michael Jordan didn’t have handles like the guys today. Today’s player practice moves the old guys never ever even dreamed of doing. I’m not sure where you are getting that there’s only a few moves? There are hundreds of moves in basketball. Take dribbling, I can think of a dozen moves but when you combine them 12 basic moves become 144. Combine that with another move and now you have 1000+ combinations. Then you have moves after the dribble, moves into your shot, post moves, passing moves, 2 person moves, 3 people triangle, team moves. There’s dozens of moves without the ball.

It's a dumb argument. Everybody knows the players of the past did not lift weights and were not in as good a shape. They were much better at other aspects of the game though. Guys today cannot shoot very well overall.

If you took a top basketball team of the past and gave them two years to get in shape, they'd be hell to beat.

[Mac4Lyfe]

The game has evolved a ton in just the last decade. Guys can make buckets at a MUCH higher clip.

FG% 46% in 2021. FG% 49% 1981

3FG% 37% 3FG% 26%

NBA players today specialize in three pointers. NBA players of the past were much better shooters.

The elite players were just as skillful and had better overall scoring ability. They were not as well trained.

FG percentage includes 3 point shots, so you should expect overall percentage to go down as more guys take 3s. Take a guy like Davis Bertrans. He’s a 43.4% FG shooter which is poor by your standards but he’s a 3 point specialist. His true shooting % is 62.8. Curry is a career 47.6 FG% shooter but he was 67.1 last year which is off the charts. You really have to use true shooting percentage. Today’s players are much more efficient shooters.

[Roger T. Bannon]

One of my favorite things about watching players of the 1970s is the incredible ability they had to use the glass. They grew up when the dunk was illegal and developed those backboard skills as a result.

[Roger T. Bannon]

FG percentage includes 3 point shots, so you should expect overall percentage to go down as more guys take 3s. Take a guy like Davis Bertrans. He’s a 43.4% FG shooter which is poor by your standards but he’s a 3 point specialist. His true shooting % is 62.8. Curry is a career 47.6 FG% shooter but he was 67.1 last year which is off the charts. You really have to use true shooting percentage. Today’s players are much more efficient shooters.

The game is different. If you take the same players, they will adjust their game to the way it is played today. Players of the past were one-on-one specialists. That has been taken out of the game more or less. Players do not have those skills anymore.

A guy like Wilt Chamberlin would probably not be particularly good. Kareem on the other hand would be great. He had a one-on-one game that does not exist today.

[Mac4Lyfe]

It's a dumb argument. Everybody knows the players of the past did not lift weights and were not in as good a shape. They were much better at other aspects of the game though. Guys today cannot shoot very well overall.

If you took a top basketball team of the past and gave them two years to get in shape, they'd be hell to beat.

Huh? Michael Jordan lifted weights. Most guys back then lifted weights. So you are going to blame players today that are bigger, faster and stronger and have access to cutting edge training than the old guys? That’s like saying that cavemen could have been Noble Laureates if they had computers???

[Roger T. Bannon]

Huh? Michael Jordan lifted weights. Most guys back then lifted weights. So you are going to blame players today that are bigger, faster and stronger and have access to cutting edge training than the old guys? That’s like saying that cavemen could have been Noble Laureates if they had computers???

No, it is like saying Roman engineers were as good as today's engineers but did it by dead reckoning.

[Roger T. Bannon]

Huh? Michael Jordan lifted weights. Most guys back then lifted weights. So you are going to blame players today that are bigger, faster and stronger and have access to cutting edge training than the old guys? That’s like saying that cavemen could have been Noble Laureates if they had computers???

Karl Malone was a beast. He is small by today's standards. If you take Karl Malone and put him in 2021, he will be a beast again.

[Mac4Lyfe]

The game is different. If you take the same players, they will adjust their game to the way it is played today. Players of the past were one-on-one specialists. That has been taken out of the game more or less. Players do not have those skills anymore.

A guy like Wilt Chamberlin would probably not be particularly good. Kareem on the other hand would be great. He had a one-on-one game that does not exist today.

I agree that those guys would have adjusted and probably would have been much better today but it is very evident that today’s athletes are just better and more skilled. It doesn’t take away from us old schoolers but we do not have to put today’s athletes down. I have seen first hand how talented kids are just in the last few years in AAU. You have more international players and they are exposed to kids from all over the world. We had a John Lucas tourney last month and over 500 teams attended. The top players in the country was there. There’s other tourneys in Vegas and Dallas next month. I never had the opportunity to play against that type of talent many times throughout the year. These kids are playing against the best every other week.

[Roger T. Bannon]

I agree that those guys would have adjusted and probably would have been much better today but it is very evident that today’s athletes are just better and more skilled. It doesn’t take away from us old schoolers but we do not have to put today’s athletes down. I have seen first hand how talented kids are just in the last few years in AAU. You have more international players and they are exposed to kids from all over the world. We had a John Lucas tourney last month and over 500 teams attended. The top players in the country was there. There’s other tourneys in Vegas and Dallas next month. I never had the opportunity to play against that type of talent many times throughout the year. These kids are playing against the best every other week.

I agree that the overall talent is higher now. They are more talented on average. You have 6-foot-6 guys that play wide receiver. However, that does not mean that there were no 6-foot-6 WRs in the past. They just played DE or more likely just did not play at all.

Nonetheless, the elite level players still went to the top. They were still just as elite. They were just not as well trained and did not play against as high a competition. But not playing against as high of competition also reduces your ability to get as good as players today.

If you take a top NBA team from 1985 and match them against an average 2021 team, they would probably lose. If you gave them a year to get in shape and adjust to the game as it is played today, they would win by 15 points.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Karl Malone was a beast. He is small by today's standards. If you take Karl Malone and put him in 2021, he will be a beast again.

I would like to think so but today’s game has evolved so much that if Malone couldn’t become a stretch 4, he may not have seen much playing time. I watched film from a team that played this weekend. They were all pretty small against a very tall team. They blew the other team out like 94 to 43. They moved the ball around so well and found guys open to hit 3s. This was 9th graders and they were bombing away. They would even give up a 2 on the other end, so they could get a quick 3 on the other end. The 3 point shot has basically eliminated the real big post player and the strong power forward. Guards rule the court.

[Roger T. Bannon]

I would like to think so but today’s game has evolved so much that if Malone couldn’t become a stretch 4, he may not have seen much playing time. I watched film from a team that played this weekend. They were all pretty small against a very tall team. They blew the other team out like 94 to 43. They moved the ball around so well and found guys open to hit 3s. This was 9th graders and they were bombing away. They would even give up a 2 on the other end, so they could get a quick 3 on the other end. The 3 point shot has basically eliminated the real big post player and the strong power forward. Guards rule the court.

Maybe. But players developed skills for what was rewarded at the time. If you change the game, they develop different skills like Dale Ellis did. Dale Ellis went from a post-up player in college to the best NBA shooter in the NBA. He did that because he had to work on his jumper. The other Dallas Mavericks saw Dale Ellis develop his 3-pointer and they developed theirs. The whole league started developing the three pointer eventually.

And then eventually, people say this three-point shit is boring and they change the rules and people develop new skills.

[Mac4Lyfe]

I think it would take much longer than a year for old guys to catch up. These kids are specializing in bball, every day, all day, all year. Most of them only play bball. They aren’t sidetracked playing football and baseball like we did. They are practicing ball handling drills that we NEVER knew existed. I can’t even teach these kids dribbling drills. They are past me. I have to have other young guys train them and I can’t keep up with those drills (I’m getting old as hell true). I try to fool myself by saying these kids are not as good as I was at this age and certainly didn’t have as much heart. But it’s a lie. These kids are better.. Dammit.

[Roger T. Bannon]

I think it would take much longer than a year for old guys to catch up. These kids are specializing in bball, every day, all day, all year. Most of them only play bball. They aren’t sidetracked playing football and baseball like we did. They are practicing ball handling drills that we NEVER knew existed. I can’t even teach these kids dribbling drills. They are past me. I have to have other young guys train them and I can’t keep up with those drills (I’m getting old as hell true). I try to fool myself by saying these kids are not as good as I was at this age and certainly didn’t have as much heart. But it’s a lie. These kids are better.. Dammit.

No, you are underestimating great talent. If you put Joe DiMaggio in MLB, he will be pretty far behind. But he will kick the cigs and be hitting .300 in short order. Hitting a baseball is a very specific and rare skill and guys that have it will have it at any level.

It is the same with basketball. College basketball players just aren't all that good. Some of them go to the NBA and are surprisingly good. They do that because they just increase their training levels.

[Mac4Lyfe]

Maybe. But players developed skills for what was rewarded at the time. If you change the game, they develop different skills like Dale Ellis did. Dale Ellis went from a post-up player in college to the best NBA shooter in the NBA. He did that because he had to work on his jumper. The other Dallas Mavericks saw Dale Ellis develop his 3-pointer and they developed theirs. The whole league started developing the three pointer eventually.

And then eventually, people say this three-point shit is boring and they change the rules and people develop new skills.

I truly believe the stars of old would find a way to fit in today’s game. They would have more technology and access to better science as well. I don’t think the 3 point shot is going away anytime soon. We’ll most likely see the line move back or have a 4 point shot. I’m seeing young kids hit the HS 3 way too easy. Most of them are hitting NBA 3s. They are all working on the step back 3 and 3s from the logo. I still get ticked when a kid comes down the court and pulls up a 3 without moving the ball but I’ve learned to hold my tongue because that’s what’s winning games.

[Mac4Lyfe]

No, you are underestimating great talent.

Probably...

[DrunkHorseplayer]

There were almost zero foreign players in the NBA back then either; imagine how much lower the level of play would be if it were almost exclusively American.

[Roger T. Bannon]

I truly believe the stars of old would find a way to fit in today’s game. They would have more technology and access to better science as well. I don’t think the 3 point shot is going away anytime soon. We’ll most likely see the line move back or have a 4 point shot. I’m seeing young kids hit the HS 3 way too easy. Most of them are hitting NBA 3s. They are all working on the step back 3 and 3s from the logo. I still get ticked when a kid comes down the court and pulls up a 3 without moving the ball but I’ve learned to hold my tongue because that’s what’s winning games.

The three-point shot has always been a joke. High school girls can hit 3-pointers. It was intended as a novelty in the ABA and it was cool so they kept it. It stayed a novelty. It may stay but people are getting tired of it now. It would be crazy to move it back. But it is so popular it will probably stay.

But defenses will probably be developed against it just as happens in the NFL. The NFL tries and tries to get higher scoring and the more they try the better defenses get to the point they cannot score at all if they do not have elite QBs.

[Mac4Lyfe]

There were almost zero foreign players in the NBA back then either; imagine how much lower the level of play would be if it were almost exclusively American.

There's some incredible foreign players out there today. Euro teams and African teams have some incredible athletes. USA basketball will really have a hard time bringing gold in future Olympics.

[Roger T. Bannon]

There's some incredible foreign players out there today. Euro teams and African teams have some incredible athletes. USA basketball will really have a hard time bringing gold in future Olympics.

Yeah. I'd watch out for Africa. That many blacks in one place is an unfair advantage.

[Mac4Lyfe]

The three-point shot has always been a joke. High school girls can hit 3-pointers. It was intended as a novelty in the ABA and it was cool so they kept it. It stayed a novelty. It may stay but people are getting tired of it now. It would be crazy to move it back. But it is so popular it will probably stay.

But defenses will probably be developed against it just as happens in the NFL. The NFL tries and tries to get higher scoring and the more they try the better defenses get to the point they cannot score at all if they do not have elite QBs.

It is damn near impossible to defend the step back 3. All you can do is tip your cap. You go up against a team with 4/5 players that can shoot 40% from the line and you are fukked. It puts so much pressure on a defense that you will eventually wilt. You can't keep up. I saw one of the Ball brothers California team play a couple years ago. They didn't even play defense. All up and down, guys draining 3s. I was thinking WTF am I watching. This isn't basketball. They scored like 130 points...

[yisman]

Most champions have played with stacked rosters. That’s how they win. The only team I can think of that won a title without a superstar roster was the bad boy pistons and even that is hard to say with Isiaih, Dumars, Laimbeer, etc.

The game has evolved a ton in just the last decade. Guys can make buckets at a MUCH higher clip. You may think guys arent playing defense today but great defense just cannot stop great offense. You cannot stop the players of today. They are too skilled. There is no one in the old days that could defend a Kyrie, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Wall, etc. The game has evolved. Most old guys wouldn’t even make it to today’s NBA. I know it sucks to say it but it’s the truth.

Wrong Pistons. 03-04 Pistons had Rasheed, Rip Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups. No superstar. They defended and beat the Kobe/Shaq Lakers.

As for the eras, the players today are more athletic/developed because of the changes to the training, the chartered flights (old players used to fly coach, make a lot less money, etc.). I think Kareem, MJ, etc. would be stars in today's NBA if they were born today. Another adjustment would be to how soft everyone is in today's game. Always sitting out games, flopping all over the place. Breathe on a guy and it's a foul. Hit him and it's a flagrant. Very different game. Then talk about hand checking.

[Roger T. Bannon]

It is damn near impossible to defend the step back 3. All you can do is tip your cap. You go up against a team with 4/5 players that can shoot 40% from the line and you are fukked. It puts so much pressure on a defense that you will eventually wilt. You can't keep up. I saw one of the Ball brothers California team play a couple years ago. They didn't even play defense. All up and down, guys draining 3s. I was thinking WTF am I watching. This isn't basketball. They scored like 130 points...

Yes, when you get to a point that it gets boring, the rules get changed.

[KVB]

...They are practicing ball handling drills that we NEVER knew existed. I can’t even teach these kids dribbling drills. They are past me. I have to have other young guys train them...

[Mac4Lyfe]

Yeah. I'd watch out for Africa. That many blacks in one place is an unfair advantage.

and the NBA is throwing a lot of money their way. They are sending coaches, trainers, recruiters to many countries in Africa as well as Europe and Asia. Basketball without borders is identifying young talent and getting them exposure and opportunities to play in the US. A lot of kids are being shipped to US high schools then funneled to colleges. It's a huge racket.

[KVB]

...Everybody knows the players of the past did not lift weights and were not in as good a shape. They were much better at other aspects of the game though. Guys today cannot shoot very well overall.

If you took a top basketball team of the past and gave them two years to get in shape, they'd be hell to beat.

[Roger T. Bannon]

But I think in 50 years we are just going to watch Chinese guys play basketball games on a computer.

[Mac4Lyfe]