USA now the biggest soccer powerhouse

[lakerboy]

The USA has come a long way in footie, but they're not WC contenders just yet. They might be in 30 to 40 years though, especially if Latino immigration keeps increasing

that part is a lock if there ever was one

[pavyracer]

Problem with US is the Latinos that are coming here are not from Brazil or Argentina. Mexico, Honduras and El Salvador are not quite the soccer powerhouses. The only way for soccer to flourish in the US and produce a top level national team is for someone like Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft to invest billions in a competitive league that attracts the cream of the crop of international soccer players. As long as the average salary in the MLS is less than $100,000 a year no american high school kid will take the game seriously knowing they can make millions playing football, basketball or baseball.

[englishmike]

I guess my brief statement didn't really bring about the point I was trying to make. Anyway, let me elaborate a little.

Gerrard and Rooney are two players who have no equal on the world stage. Now I don't mean that they're the two best players in the world. That title keeps changing and on current forum - it would have to be Leo Messi.
What I mean is that they play roles that no one else in world football can. They can play multiple positions on the pitch with relative ease. They are players you can build a team around. They both share the incredible determination and willpower that seems to stem from their similar Liverpudlian upbringing. They are players who are going to be definitive footballing examples of their generation. And luckily for England, Fabio Capello recognises this.

Watch any of the games where England start to struggle and it becomes obvious that the team relies on the Rooney-Gerrard combination to make something happen.

Now, Terry and Lampard are both fantastic players and have been fantastic servants to their country. However, I can think of a quite a few players around the world who are just as good and often better than those two.
IMHO, Carvalho is the best defender at Chelsea and Rio Ferdinand the best in England (who unlike Terry is a wonderful ball playing centrehalf -almost Beckenbauer if not for his lapses in concentration).

Lampard is proven at the highest level but hardly dynamic. Great at what he does but one dimensional. Even if you were a Chelsea fan, could you honestly see Lampard getting into Spain's midfield. Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas can all do what he does and in Iniesta's case - he can do it at another level.

Compare this with Rooney and Gerrard, name me one team in the world (club or international) who wouldn't make room for them. Most teams would probably build themselves around them.

As for Walcott, lets not make a mockery of this debate as we'll merely be commenting on potential (one night in Zagreb doesn't mean anything). Just for comparison sake, Rooney and Owen were making headlines at the highest level when they were both 18. The boy still has a long way to go.

Good post and I don't disagree. What I will say about Walcott is his hat trick against Croatia for England was proof enough of his quality and the player he will become for England. To do that at international level isn't an everyday occurance.

As for Lampard, i respectfully disagree, i think if he came on the market every club in the world would want him. As for Terry, yes - Ferdinand could be marginally better but that just makes them both world class so my bad for omitting Ferdinand.

You make some good points though.

[englishmike]

If Greece can win the Euro then England has a chance to win the Word Cup. Theory from reality though can sometimes be miles away.

England is not in the first Top 5 teams in Europe at the moment so winning the World Cup is only a dream. English players lack the skills to win in all major sports. Football, basketball, tennis, cricket, rugby, you name the sport. For a country of 60 million people they are an embarrassment in producing champions. If you look at Liverpool or Man United who won the Champions League recently they are coached by non-English coaches, owned by Americans and 80% of the starting lineups are non-English players. This tell the story on why England fails to win any silverware in soccer for the last 43 years (they only won once in 1966 at home on a goal that never crossed the line..lol)

If your domestic league is marketed as the best in the world, it stands to reason you will attract the best coaches and managers in the world. All the best English players play in the Premier League, how good do you think it would be if they were all English? It can only be as good as it is if you attract the best of the best from everywhere. I'm not sure what being owned by Americans has to do with anything either, they're there simply because they were stupid enough to pay over the odds, Man Utd went from being solvent to owing 600M the morning after Glazer took over and Hicks and Gillette have just had to beg the banks not to foreclose on Liverpool when Liverpool have never been in debt, so you're right, American owners with no concept of debt burden are a bad thing for English football. Englands decision to have the best players and managers in their league is no more bizzare than Americans holding the 'World Chapionshps' in NFL and MLB and inviting nobody else in the world to compete.

England haven't won a trophy since 1966 because they aren't good enough, I've never said anything different.

When you find a team that repesents England in basketball, let me know, basketball has zero tv coverage in England other than 1 game per week from the NBA.

[englishmike]

[/b]


right on the mark in bold

You're right. Their record of one win in 43 years is only marginally better than yours in positive energy parlays.

[Squirrel]

You're right. Their record of one win in 43 years is only marginally better than yours in positive energy parlays.

Made me chuckle.

To the poster that named all the sports we aint good at; Pathetic attempt at an argument really, you named Cricket and Rugby despite the fact we are consistently in the top 5 in the world in both those sports.

If we're gonna use pedantic arguments, you tell me what sports the Yanks are consistently the best in? I know the answer, sports like NFL, baseball and Ice Hockey that about 5 other countries worldwide give a toss about. You say we do poor in sports despite the fact we have a large population, well your population is gigantic in comparison and the only sports you consistently rank high in are those that nobody else plays.

[englishmike]

The argument about English Rugby and Cricket teams is actually correct but I doubt Pavy knew it's got more to do with the 1980's Conservative government deciding to sell off school sports fields for housing development to raise money than it has to do with England being crap at either sport. Rugby and Cricket are played at very few schools in England now and the decline will get worse, there is no school infrastructure for either sport due to funding issues.

[aneurysm00]

Having lived in Canada for a while, I've slowly shed my disdain for American sports and now keenly follow all the four major leagues. (Their "fans" still annoy me though).

But even I agree that you'll only lose an argument debating the popularity of American sports outside the continent as coverage/popularity is dwarfed by soccer, cricket, tennis, and even rugby union.

NBA is the only one that has any leverage when it comes to worldwide sports broadcasting.

[AUSSIE_PUNTER]

australia for world cup champions

[lakerboy]

You're right. Their record of one win in 43 years is only marginally better than yours in positive energy parlays.

you know what limey you need to get your facts straight. i was the one who had the thread to ban the positive energy parlays and now your talking about my record. and their one win is not in 43 years but since the world cup started which i believe is 79 years. you english folk are just bitter cause you controlled most of the world at one point and now you cant even control the muslims in your country shame on you

[englishmike]

you know what limey you need to get your facts straight. i was the one who had the thread to ban the positive energy parlays and now your talking about my record. and their one win is not in 43 years but since the world cup started which i believe is 79 years. you english folk are just bitter cause you controlled most of the world at one point and now you cant even control the muslims in your country shame on you

if they won in 1966 and it's now 2009 they haven't won for ........

As for not controlling Muslims in my country, you're right, I blame it on L.A. Mayor Villaragosa and Arnold Schawznegger.

[lakerboy]

Made me chuckle.

To the poster that named all the sports we aint good at; Pathetic attempt at an argument really, you named Cricket and Rugby despite the fact we are consistently in the top 5 in the world in both those sports.

If we're gonna use pedantic arguments, you tell me what sports the Yanks are consistently the best in? I know the answer, sports like NFL, baseball and Ice Hockey that about 5 other countries worldwide give a toss about. You say we do poor in sports despite the fact we have a large population, well your population is gigantic in comparison and the only sports you consistently rank high in are those that nobody else plays.

nobody plays anything but soccer in your world. i love soccer but its not the only sport. and if your folks love soccer so much why cant they produce the best players? yes you have some genuine talent but im canadian and we love hockey and guess what our team dominates tournaments at least we are good at it. and dont tell me no one plays hockey

[lakerboy]

mike how many world cups has england won since 1930

[Squirrel]

How many countries play Hockey compared to Football?? Its far easier to be the best in the world at a sport when only 5/6 countries worldwide play it, thats what my argument was.

[englishmike]

Who mentioned 1930? they haven't won the World Cup for 43 years, I'm not sure which part of that you don't understand.

[pavyracer]

I only compared the sports that are played in England (specifically excluded american football, baseball, ice hockey). Basketball is played in England at the pro level. It is not my problem England sucks at it. As far as soccer, rugby and cricket I stand corrected. England is not an elite team in soccer and not the best in either rugby or cricket. The English lads in high school are not taught to be champions like the rest of the world and this is why when they become pros they don't have the champions heart. Here in the US everything is competitive and everyone is taught to be No.1 from the pee wee leagues to high school then college which leads into domination at the pro level and at the olympics and wordwide competitions. In Texas high school football is a religion and in the ghettos of the US the best basketball players are developed from street ball. We also dominate UFC and MMA compared to England. Also we dominate boxing. Name one English champion besides Lennox Lewis worth mentioning in the last 50 years. We have Ali, Foreman, Tyson, Holifield and a dozen others. The English are not good enough to be champions in any sport. They are good to become Top 5 but never No.1 which is what matters.

[lakerboy]

Who mentioned 1930? they haven't won the World Cup for 43 years, I'm not sure which part of that you don't understand.

mike we can all manipulate stats to our advantage. in my recollection i count world cup wins since the tourney became official and that was 1930. and even for your point 43 years is pretty long isnt it for the inventors of the game. if brazil didnt win for 43 years their country would be a chaotic riot zone. have you ever been to a brzail world cup game- their fans are crazy and so critical of their team thats why they stay so good for so long its not all about talent brazil has had some of the worst defending teams but still find ways to win

[lakerboy]

I only compared the sports that are played in England (specifically excluded american football, baseball, ice hockey). Basketball is played in England at the pro level. It is not my problem England sucks at it. As far as soccer, rugby and cricket I stand corrected. England is not an elite team in soccer and not the best in either rugby or cricket. The English lads in high school are not taught to be champions like the rest of the world and this is why when they become pros they don't have the champions heart. Here in the US everything is competitive and everyone is taught to be No.1 from the pee wee leagues to high school then college which leads into domination at the pro level and at the olympics and wordwide competitions. In Texas high school football is a religion and in the ghettos of the US the best basketball players are developed from street ball. We also dominate UFC and MMA compared to England. Also we dominate boxing. Name one English champion besides Lennox Lewis worth mentioning in the last 50 years. We have Ali, Foreman, Tyson, Holifield and a dozen others. The English are not good enough to be champions in any sport. They are good to become Top 5 but never No.1 which is what matters.

pavy forget it man the english are used to losing it has become ingrained in their culture ever since they started losing colonies- have you been to england ? go there and stay for a while like i did and you will see what I mean.

[englishmike]

Pro basketball in England is played at a level that wouldn't even rival the NBA development league. Whilst what you say is accurate it would be like me saying America has a pro rugby team, it's irrelevent.

You're right about competition. School teachers are no longer paid to teach sports out of hours and the state schools refuse to suppy sports equipmant they deem 'marginal,' i.e. cricket and rugby.
there's also been an epidemic of 'claim culture' whereby parents let their kids play sport then sue the school when the kid twists his ankle, so conseuently insurers refuse to insure sports activities and schools refuse to encourage sports because of a lack of insurance.

It pains me to say your post is pretty accurate, the only argument I could put up would be you could fit England between Los Angeles and San Francisco with room to spare so it's possible to argue England, for it's size, is a very succesful sporting nation.

[Squirrel]

pavy forget it man the english are used to losing it has become ingrained in their culture ever since they started losing colonies- have you been to england ? go there and stay for a while like i did and you will see what I mean.

Just about every single English person I know would agree with this. Nowhere in this thread has it being claimed by myself or Englishmike that we are the best in the world.

This thread is the perfect example of why you cant have a debate on sports with mist American people* though, as soon as the argument doesnt go their way it turns to something about politics (ie, losing colonies and controlling muslim immigrants, which have both ben mentioned in this thread)

*I dont mean all Americans.

[lakerboy]

Just about every single English person I know would agree with this. Nowhere in this thread has it being claimed by myself or Englishmike that we are the best in the world.

This thread is the perfect example of why you cant have a debate on sports with mist American people* though, as soon as the argument doesnt go their way it turns to something about politics (ie, losing colonies and controlling muslim immigrants, which have both ben mentioned in this thread)

*I dont mean all Americans.

ah guy relax im not american. and i never said you guys said your the best. im not arguing here and if you check my post from earlier in this thread i made it clear that I believe England has a great shot at winning the world cup its just sad they have to get an Italian to help them do it. The FA is at fault for Englands world cup and euro failures for their greediness to play games at xmas time instead of letting their players rest like all the other relevant leagues. Capello has identified this issue by rotating the squad and challenging losers like REdknapp.

[englishmike]

pavy forget it man the english are used to losing it has become ingrained in their culture ever since they started losing colonies- have you been to england ? go there and stay for a while like i did and you will see what I mean.

Your ignorance of world affairs is only matched by your ignorance of different races and gambling. Positive energy anyone?

[lakerboy]

Your ignorance of world affairs is only matched by your ignorance of different races and gambling. Positive energy anyone?

what are you talking about mike.i had a good time in england when i lived there and my roommates were from all over the isles.i have nothing against any race but england is a mess just ask the people that live there

[englishmike]

what are you talking about mike.i had a good time in england when i lived there and my roommates were from all over the isles.i have nothing against any race but england is a mess just ask the people that live there

Whats your point? Every country in the world is in a mess.

I'll be honest, I find it hard to take lectures from Canadians about sport. when Pavy makes his arguments the only comeback I really have is landmass, the only reason i dont tear your ridiculously naive arguments apart is out of a respect to the non-moron Canadians such as Plom and Mudcat.

[lakerboy]

Whats your point? Every country in the world is in a mess.

Everyone has their problems but when people come to Canada from England all they tell me is that their glad they left that chapter of their life behind. Typical day in England is working 8-4 and ending up in the pub at 5 and going home wasted at 10. England has some great pubs i must admit and the fun I had there when i was young could hardly be rivalled to anywhere else in my life.

[englishmike]

Everyone has their problems but when people come to Canada from England all they tell me is that their glad they left that chapter of their life behind. Typical day in England is working 8-4 and ending up in the pub at 5 and going home wasted at 10. England has some great pubs i must admit and the fun I had there when i was young could hardly be rivalled to anywhere else in my life.

yeah, it's really like that, that's why all the pubs are closing down, it's because they're so busy.

I think you'll also find all Germans are Nazis and every French person drinks wine and all Olympic Gold Medal Canadian sprinters are juiced up. Whoops. The last one is true.

[Squirrel]

Everyone has their problems but when people come to Canada from England all they tell me is that their glad they left that chapter of their life behind.

Surely that works every way. I know some Americans who came to study here and settled down and lived their life here, they say its the best thing they've ever done. Be stupid doing it otherwise lol.

Any foreigners you can name are welcome here in my opinion, its a bonus that for most of them drinking beer is forbidden, more for people like myself

[lakerboy]

yeah, it's really like that, that's why all the pubs are closing down, it's because they're so busy.

I think you'll also find all Germans are Nazis and every French person drinks wine and all Olympic Gold Medal Canadian sprinters are juiced up. Whoops. The last one is true.

guy they had a pub evry ten feet- so of course they would close some and dont forget immigrants arent the customers at the pubs and with the increase of immigrants and older brits dying slowly that would be an obvious thing

as for your second statement i never said that and linford christie was as clean as a whistle and we all know carl lewis never did drugs god no

[lakerboy]

Surely that works every way. I know some Americans who came to study here and settled down and lived their life here, they say its the best thing they've ever done. Be stupid doing it otherwise lol.

Any foreigners you can name are welcome here in my opinion, its a bonus that for most of them drinking beer is forbidden, more for people like myself

agreed squirrel i think i was hanging out with guys like you when i was there. my boys were from devon and exeter

[Esco]

Problem with US is the Latinos that are coming here are not from Brazil or Argentina. Mexico, Honduras and El Salvador are not quite the soccer powerhouses. The only way for soccer to flourish in the US and produce a top level national team is for someone like Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft to invest billions in a competitive league that attracts the cream of the crop of international soccer players. As long as the average salary in the MLS is less than $100,000 a year no american high school kid will take the game seriously knowing they can make millions playing football, basketball or baseball.

What perhaps they should do is create some kind of Pan-American MLS league, that spans from Canada to Argentina. Maybe far-fetched but if they can get it to work it would be ideal

[pavyracer]

What perhaps they should do is create some kind of Pan-American MLS league, that spans from Canada to Argentina. Maybe far-fetched but if they can get it to work it would be ideal

It's a good idea but without a federation like the European UEFA who owns billions of dollars and have marketed the Champions League as the most profitable tournament in the world with TV rights in the billions even this idea will fail in the US. Unless soccer surpasses or it's equal in viewer time like NFL and NBA in the US no top talent can be developed for the national team. The only reason Europe is successful in producing top talent is because the kids when they grow up they have top soccer players as role models and envy to become them. Go to any soccer park in the US when kids play soccer and ask them who is Ronaldo, Kaha, Lampard or Torres and they would have no fukking clue. Same way like european kids don't know who the fukk is Peyton Manning or Terrel Owens.

[WileOut]

Maybe in your mind but not most people. As EM said, the primary reason why the country wins the most medals is down to the size of their population rather than any inherent skill level.

Every person I have had this conversation with has said that the country that wins the most medals in the Summer Olympics has to be the most athletic country. And I know you, and you will say the exact opposite of what I say, no matter how much sense I make when I say it. So I aint gonna spend much more time with you anymore, you instigator you.

The Summer Olympics has the most basic of athletic events. You can't bring per-capita into this discussion because like I said, all we can do is win the medals. We can't help that our borders are not sealed much at all or that we have a lot of people. THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY PEOPLE THAT COMPETE IN THE OLYMPICS. Therefore a highly populated country will always be way down on a per capita list. We beat all other countries in the summer olympics every year (with medal counts). End of story end of discussion.

[WileOut]

Come, come now.

Swimming is an area where there are so many individual events that any good swimmer has a pretty good shot for a medal in most of them. An awesome swimmer has a pretty good shot at all the events they partake in, like Phelps.

Now look at sprinting which you bring up. You might have the fastest sprinter that ever lived or ever could live but what's the best he can do? 100m, 200m, 4x100m and the long jump. Does that make a swimmer with 8 gold medals twice as good as a sprinter with 4?

My statement was that Phelps is ARGUABLY the best athlete to ever walk the face of the Earth. Which is a true statement. The most decorated gold medalist of all time can be argued to be the best athlete ever. Of course you argued with it because you will argue with E=**^2.

Phelps has 16 Gold medals. As I said, nobody has won as many gold medals as Phelps. So yes I consider him to be ONE OF THE GREATEST ATHLETES TO EVER LIVE. The swimmer vs sprinter stuff is irrelevant because it is subjective. You have your opinion I have mine.

[Dark Horse]

This is more important than MLS: Onyewu to AC Milan!

If he becomes a starter and plays at that level for a number of years, that could be the first step to the next level: US players starting for top European teams.

I guess it starts from the back. Goalies first. Now a defender. If the US can ever get attackers starting for top European teams (Italy, Spain, England), that will change things. Then the US national team could begin to compete at the highest level. The key is not MLS, but the success of US players overseas.

[lakerboy]

Where was Onyewu born?