Kobe conveniently throws himself into the Jordan/Lebron GOAT debate

[jjgold]

Kobe not even in the same league as Lebron

20-62 if Kobe played this year instead of James

[Goat Milk]

Kobe not near LeBron.

LeBron so much more efficient. Kobe an all time chucker.

Wade is more efficient than Kobe. Doesn't mean he's better. Kobe was a better defender than Lebron bro. Always. And a better closer. Lebron melted down against Dallas. Kobe would never average 17 in an NBA finals at 27 years old. Never.

[Goat Milk]

Kobe not even in the same league as Lebron

20-62 if Kobe played this year instead of James

You don't even remember prime Kobe. You have Alzheimer's bro. That's why you can only remember who's good the past few games. That's what happens when you get old and slow.

[jjgold]

Kobe was one dimensional ball hog who played with great players

James is the best 2 guard in the league
The Best point guard in the league

one of best scorers, rebounder, assist guy and defenders of all times

[WildCelticsFan]

Watch james this playoffs, wheres that defence? Not even close in quality defence when compared to MJ and Kobe. 1 on 1 these guys would beat lbj

[WildCelticsFan]

Best 2 guard? What hes not even a great jump shooter.

Best PG? I can name at least 5 that are better...

Common jj lay off the drugs

[play4win]

kobe only goat in rapin

[sNoWmAn2169]

The rape allegations will forever haunt Kobe. He will NEVER be in the same discussion because of them, true or not.

[Pikachu]

He's lucky he played before the rise of GS. Otherwise he would never get out of the West.

[JIBBBY]

Kobe was really tough in his prime. Won rings.. Certainly one of the best the game has seen..

He was even balling his ass off as an old man that last season right before his Achilles blew up on him. He was taking a shitty team on his shoulders and willing his team into the playoffs..

He was even beating the Warriors in that game when the injury happened.




Kobe was a sniper...

[2daBank]

What? He got caught cheating

Kobe was unguardable

From mj’s era forward, who is your top 5?

Kobe was by far closest thing we have seen to Mike. That why I don't care for the bron Jordan comparisons cause their games and mentalities are so much different where as Kobe was like a better shooting Jordan clone in so many ways. Kobe will always be one of my favorites, just the work ethic and mentality things i love. So rare these days to get guys with that much ability also being the hardest worker and most competitive on the team, I love that!!!

[JIBBBY]

Kobe was by far closest thing we have seen to Mike. That why I don't care for the bron Jordan comparisons cause their games and mentalities are so much different where as Kobe was like a better shooting Jordan clone in so many ways. Kobe will always be one of my favorites, just the work ethic and mentality things i love. So rare these days to get guys with that much ability also being the hardest worker and most competitive on the team, I love that!!!

Jordan and Kobe were absolute fierce competitors.. They both took losing personally... Lebron doesn't have that same mentality.. Jordan the most competitive ever even over Kobe IMO...

[sofranos]

If Steph Curry was 4 shades darker, could he be called the greatest. Never seen legoat shoot 3s from anywear and score.

[2daBank]

Jordan and Kobe were absolute fierce competitors.. They both took losing personally... Lebron doesn't have that same mentality.. Jordan the most competitive ever even over Kobe IMO...

No doubt, I think Kobe was right there with him in that regard. Lot of teammates didn't like either, just tells ya what kind of "just here to cash a check" type bitches they were!! I want my superstars to have that competitive fire and relentless work ethic, nothing more off putting to me than the guys that just skate by on talent and really don't care all that much (like James harden!).,

[2daBank]

If Steph Curry was 4 shades darker, could he be called the greatest. Never seen legoat shoot 3s from anywear and score.

Maybe if we are talking horse and not the actual game.

[play4win]

If Steph Curry was 4 shades darker, could he be called the greatest. Never seen legoat shoot 3s from anywear and score.

if curry was darker he never would win 2 mvp and never be the best 3 point shooter since most defenders would not allow him shooting that easily. just stop.

[blankoblanco]

Kobe was closest that we've seen to Mike in the modern era only because his whole game was literally trying to copy Mike. But he shot worse, he guarded worse, he did pretty much everything worse. The truth is that he was a pale imitation, largely in ways that are statistically provable and easily seen with a pair of eyes and a brain

I wish people would stop thinking that being a worse imitation of the GOAT means he's better than Lebron, who yes, I will agree is not really comparable to MJ because their games are completely different

[Git Lo]

Kobe was closest that we've seen to Mike in the modern era only because his whole game was literally trying to copy Mike. But he shot worse, he guarded worse, he did pretty much everything worse. The truth is that he was a pale imitation, largely in ways that are statistically provable and easily seen with a pair of eyes and a brain

I wish people would stop thinking that being a worse imitation of the GOAT means he's better than Lebron, who yes, I will agree is not really comparable to MJ because their games are completely different

Kobe/mj debates usually dont account for the degree of competition, like your post, so it becomes a worthless debate fast

[blankoblanco]

I hope you're not actually implying there's a Kobe vs MJ debate. Everyone who has any clue knows that's laughable

Yeah, Kobe's degree of competition, like how he won 3 championships as NOT the leader of the team because he was with Shaq who was also unguardable. And then how when he wasn't with Shaq he found a way to win a finals against the Orlando Magic. Damn, that resume is almost better than Robert Horry who had more championships!!

Okay, here's a thought experiment. Pair Lebron with a PRIME SHAQUILLE ONEIL and imagine what happens. LOL

Hoping the sarcasm is penetrating felt

[2daBank]

Kobe was closest that we've seen to Mike in the modern era only because his whole game was literally trying to copy Mike. But he shot worse, he guarded worse, he did pretty much everything worse. The truth is that he was a pale imitation, largely in ways that are statistically provable and easily seen with a pair of eyes and a brain

I wish people would stop thinking that being a worse imitation of the GOAT means he's better than Lebron, who yes, I will agree is not really comparable to MJ because their games are completely different

Don’t know if you referring to me but wasn’t trying to call Kobe better than Jordan by any stretch, just much more similar games and mentalities than bron. I would have to absolutely disagree about him being a poorer shooter than Jordan, Kobe was much better pure shooter than Jordan (imo) who really had to develope his jumper over the years.

[Goat Milk]

I hope you're not actually implying there's a Kobe vs MJ debate. Everyone who has any clue knows that's laughable

Yeah, Kobe's degree of competition, like how he won 3 championships as NOT the leader of the team because he was with Shaq who was also unguardable. And then how when he wasn't with Shaq he found a way to win a finals against the Orlando Magic. Damn, that resume is almost better than Robert Horry who had more championships!!

Okay, here's a thought experiment. Pair Lebron with a PRIME SHAQUILLE ONEIL and imagine what happens. LOL

Hoping the sarcasm is penetrating felt

What would happen? Lebron couldn't shoot for shit for the first 12 years of his career. You have a paint clogger in Shaq with Lebron? No chance that's better than Kobe - Shaq.

Kobe averaged 30 in the finals that 3rd year, where Shaq called him "the best player in the world."

That's from Shaq's mouth, the most arrogant player of all time.

Kobe beat the Boston celtics dude. 4 hall of famers in the starting lineup. 3 of them all-world legends.... all in their primes. Kobe beat them.... with 2 broken fingers....

Also just want to say, Kobe is the most ferocious 1 on 1 defender I've ever seen. Jordan had a bit more stamina, so could defend at an elite level longer over the course of a game.

But for a brief 5 minute period during some games, I literally saw Kobe shut down the greatest players in the world single handedly. If anyone has forgotten, you can look up these clips on youtube. There were some legendary players that honestly could not cross the 3 point line against Kobe when he buckled down. Lebron never had that ability. Never. Neither did Jordan.

To call Kobe a pale imitation is a disgrace not just to Kobe, but to the entire basketball community. A pale imitation? Kobe Bryant is a legend dude. Yeah, Jordan is better, but Bryant did things the world had never seen.

Bryant scored over 50 points 4 consecutive games. CONSECUTIVE. You realize how ham ESPN goes when one guy drops 55-60 today? Kobe was doing that in his sleep bro. Remember when he dropped 62 on Dallas after 3 quarters and sat out the 4th? WIth being triple teamed? Dallas went to the finals that year....

I don't think a "pale imitation" would be capable of the types of things Kobe Bryant did on the basketball court.

[Goat Milk]

Also, if the Warriors assembled during the Bryant era, Bryant would just counter it and grab a free agent for himself too. It's not rocket science. You adapt as the teams change around you. Wade and Bron and Bosh teamed up to stop KG Pierce Allen and Rondo....

[2daBank]

What would happen? Lebron couldn't shoot for shit for the first 12 years of his career. You have a paint clogger in Shaq with Lebron? No chance that's better than Kobe - Shaq.

Kobe averaged 30 in the finals that 3rd year, where Shaq called him "the best player in the world."

That's from Shaq's mouth, the most arrogant player of all time.

Kobe beat the Boston celtics dude. 4 hall of famers in the starting lineup. 3 of them all-world legends.... all in their primes. Kobe beat them.... with 2 broken fingers....

Also just want to say, Kobe is the most ferocious 1 on 1 defender I've ever seen. Jordan had a bit more stamina, so could defend at an elite level longer over the course of a game.

But for a brief 5 minute period during some games, I literally saw Kobe shut down the greatest players in the world single handedly. If anyone has forgotten, you can look up these clips on youtube. There were some legendary players that honestly could not cross the 3 point line against Kobe when he buckled down. Lebron never had that ability. Never. Neither did Jordan.

To call Kobe a pale imitation is a disgrace not just to Kobe, but to the entire basketball community. A pale imitation? Kobe Bryant is a legend dude. Yeah, Jordan is better, but Bryant did things the world had never seen.

Bryant scored over 50 points 4 consecutive games. CONSECUTIVE. You realize how ham ESPN goes when one guy drops 55-60 today? Kobe was doing that in his sleep bro. Remember when he dropped 62 on Dallas after 3 quarters and sat out the 4th? WIth being triple teamed? Dallas went to the finals that year....

I don't think a "pale imitation" would be capable of the types of things Kobe Bryant did on the basketball court.

Gotta Agree w goaty big time here, Kobe has to be mentioned when talking all timers.

[A4K]

Kobe love him or hate him was a killer. He sure as fuq never threw on a cast and pretended to be injured after losing.

[blankoblanco]

Re: Goat Milk

I respect your opinion, I just disagree and I believe prime Shaq + Lebron would've been absolutely unbeatably insane. Do you deny that Lebron's been a better team player with better court vision than Kobe? All of the internal Lakers problems at that time came down to Kobe and Shaq not working well together because of ego shit. And you're way overstating how Lebron shot earlier in his career. His first year or two? Fine, yeah, he chucked a lot to try to carry a bad team.

The stats are all available online. Lebron became a very smart basketball player. Compare it to Kobe shooting 40% because he's trying to be Jordan. Why does Lebron lose value points if he drove to the basket more? He was and always has been a substantially more efficient scorer, and that matters a lot in games that are often decided by 2.

[blankoblanco]

And I'd also like to just have a whole composition of quotes from guys who had to guard Lebron, because I bet it's brutal and affects them on both ends of the court. Nobody can deny the physicality he has, and that has value as well

[SouthBayGame]

Kobe was one dimensional ball hog who played with great players

James is the best 2 guard in the league
The Best point guard in the league

one of best scorers, rebounder, assist guy and defenders of all times

Most of that is true except for the part about defense. James is not an all time great defender like Michael. He could be but he has to save some energy for being the teams offense

[Goat Milk]

Re: Goat Milk

I respect your opinion, I just disagree and I believe prime Shaq + Lebron would've been absolutely unbeatably insane. Do you deny that Lebron's been a better team player with better court vision than Kobe? All of the internal Lakers problems at that time came down to Kobe and Shaq not working well together because of ego shit. And you're way overstating how Lebron shot earlier in his career. His first year or two? Fine, yeah, he chucked a lot to try to carry a bad team.

The stats are all available online. Lebron became a very smart basketball player. Compare it to Kobe shooting 40% because he's trying to be Jordan. Why does Lebron lose value points if he drove to the basket more? He was and always has been a substantially more efficient scorer, and that matters a lot in games that are often decided by 2.

Lebron has better court vision than Bryant. And he's a better team player. I don't look at things subjectively. I look at them with no bias at all.

Lebron's outside shooting and midrange jumpers were not good enough to win with Shaq. Today, Lebron has improved dramatically from 3 and from midrange. He admitted to watching Bryant footage prior to this year started. Bryant lived in the midrange area. That's why it worked so well with Shaq. You have to understand, it's about spacing. It's not about efficiency. Why do you think Embiid and Simmons lost that series? It's cause Simmons can't shoot the ball. He'll shoot 50% from the field, but he literally can't make a jumper. Now I'm not saying Lebron was like that, but his J was really weak for 10-12 years...

Why do you think he averaged 17 ppg against Dallas? Dallas played a zone. What a zone does is forces guys to take 3's and jumpers. Lebron wanted to just attack, attack, attack. Nope. That's why they lost...

For 2 years, the Boston Celtics would just back off on James, and give him wide open shots. James was always scared to take that shot. Do you forget? James never had confidence in his jumper. That's why he could never beat Boston.

Bryant on the other hand, never lost confidence. Even if he was 1-15. He was a straight assassin.

And to your other point of efficiency mattering in a close game decided by 2....sure, it matters, but confidence and killer instinct matter much more.... Bryant had both of those when he was 20 years old. Lebron did not achieve the killer instinct and confidence until he turned about 31 years old. Perhaps it's because he was a posterboy his entire life....

James may very well go down as the greatest player in basketball history, but you have to examine things unbiasedly when you are invested in the basketball community.

[trobin31]

Since Jordan, Lebron>Duncan>Kobe=Shaq

[Goat Milk]

Since Jordan, Lebron>Duncan>Kobe=Shaq

Did you just mention Duncan and Shaq in the same sentence as Bryant Jordan and Lebron?

I'm done in here.

[blankoblanco]

Lebron has better court vision than Bryant. And he's a better team player. I don't look at things subjectively. I look at them with no bias at all.

Lebron's outside shooting and midrange jumpers were not good enough to win with Shaq. Today, Lebron has improved dramatically from 3 and from midrange. He admitted to watching Bryant footage prior to this year started. Bryant lived in the midrange area. That's why it worked so well with Shaq. You have to understand, it's about spacing. It's not about efficiency. Why do you think Embiid and Simmons lost that series? It's cause Simmons can't shoot the ball. He'll shoot 50% from the field, but he literally can't make a jumper. Now I'm not saying Lebron was like that, but his J was really weak for 10-12 years...

Why do you think he averaged 17 ppg against Dallas? Dallas played a zone. What a zone does is forces guys to take 3's and jumpers. Lebron wanted to just attack, attack, attack. Nope. That's why they lost...

For 2 years, the Boston Celtics would just back off on James, and give him wide open shots. James was always scared to take that shot. Do you forget? James never had confidence in his jumper. That's why he could never beat Boston.

Bryant on the other hand, never lost confidence. Even if he was 1-15. He was a straight assassin.

And to your other point of efficiency mattering in a close game decided by 2....sure, it matters, but confidence and killer instinct matter much more.... Bryant had both of those when he was 20 years old. Lebron did not achieve the killer instinct and confidence until he turned about 31 years old. Perhaps it's because he was a posterboy his entire life....

James may very well go down as the greatest player in basketball history, but you have to examine things unbiasedly when you are invested in the basketball community.

Can't say I fully agree with this but it was interesting to read and I respect it and I'll think about it.

[Ratzz]

Kobe MUST put HIMSELF in the GOAT conversation.. because nobody else will!!

[trobin31]

Did you just mention Duncan and Shaq in the same sentence as Bryant Jordan and Lebron?

I'm done in here.

Tim Duncan Probably greatest power forward of all times, Kobe not even the greatest shooting guard. Most consistent, automatic player I’ve seen besides Olajuwon. Great defensively, made everyone better around him. Not the flashiest or outspoken player and I honestly never rooted for Spurs, always rooted against when they played Lakers but he several times single handidly destroyed Kobe and Shaq who were on same team. just my personal opinion but if I had a team give me Duncan.

[Thrilla]

Pound for pound best.. Thread closed.

[The Kraken]

Lebron has better court vision than Bryant. And he's a better team player. I don't look at things subjectively. I look at them with no bias at all.

Lebron's outside shooting and midrange jumpers were not good enough to win with Shaq. Today, Lebron has improved dramatically from 3 and from midrange. He admitted to watching Bryant footage prior to this year started. Bryant lived in the midrange area. That's why it worked so well with Shaq. You have to understand, it's about spacing. It's not about efficiency. Why do you think Embiid and Simmons lost that series? It's cause Simmons can't shoot the ball. He'll shoot 50% from the field, but he literally can't make a jumper. Now I'm not saying Lebron was like that, but his J was really weak for 10-12 years...

Why do you think he averaged 17 ppg against Dallas? Dallas played a zone. What a zone does is forces guys to take 3's and jumpers. Lebron wanted to just attack, attack, attack. Nope. That's why they lost...

For 2 years, the Boston Celtics would just back off on James, and give him wide open shots. James was always scared to take that shot. Do you forget? James never had confidence in his jumper. That's why he could never beat Boston.

Bryant on the other hand, never lost confidence. Even if he was 1-15. He was a straight assassin.

And to your other point of efficiency mattering in a close game decided by 2....sure, it matters, but confidence and killer instinct matter much more.... Bryant had both of those when he was 20 years old. Lebron did not achieve the killer instinct and confidence until he turned about 31 years old. Perhaps it's because he was a posterboy his entire life....

James may very well go down as the greatest player in basketball history, but you have to examine things unbiasedly when you are invested in the basketball community.

First off, everything you just wrote is subjective, pretty funny you dont realize it. Lebron had better court vision Lebron a better teammate, Kobe never lost confidence, James never had confidence in his jumper, blah blah blah.... Every bit of that is subjectivity, you would probably be well advised to read up on the definition before making grandious claims that you are somehow unbiased and only speak to the objective facts. Laughable.

Its fine that these discussions are subjective, irrational, tinged with fandom and bias, there is no other way to debate greatness because everything is arbitrary. Horry won 7 rings so he is clearly better than Jordan. Bob Pettit averaged more ppg than Larry Bird, Dr J, Kareem and Kobe, so if Im being unbiased and completely objective, he is better.

Its a debate and you have one vote, and it means as much and as little as mine or anyone elses.