Taking a Chance on the F Books

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  • Newguyintown
    SBR Sharp
    • 12-24-05
    • 348

    #1
    Taking a Chance on the F Books
    Every time I post about a questionable book, the majority response is basically "You dont have to play here, play in these A books instead- Pinny, Greek, Cris, etc."

    This may be a good point for some. If you're a casual gambler and need a few books, then this advice is right on the money. Why play a C book if you can play an A book? But for some (like me), this misses the point. Money is made in gambling from soft books, and its not a question of either-or but of how much additional +EV can one get. If I post about a B-F book its because I see something there that will almost certainly make me money that I cannot get from an A book.

    I've played at lots of C books, a few D books. I've never been stiffed until Betonsports (and I'm at Betwwts and hoping that one will work out!). But those who say the lesson of Betonsports is not to play at low-rated books are missing the point, because this ignores what people have won at low-rated books.

    So while I'd dodge the F- books as these are deemed outright scams, what about the F books? F to F+ is defined as, "caution, extreme risk to players funds. Possibility of a scam." So these F books, what's the story? Does ANYONE make it out alive, presumably no one hears about a book until there is bad news so how do we know some of these books are F's. Not really my point to question the rankings and say that these F's are not F's but that is a consideration. Let's say you use a little common sense, skip the crazy good bonuses and anything that causes alarm bells to go off. What are the chances of say getting into an F book with $1k and being allowed to cash out $4k? Is there a 5% chance you won't get out or is it a 75% chance. I want to learn all the F books- there's a whole unexplored F-World out there!

    New Guy
  • pags11
    SBR Posting Legend
    • 08-18-05
    • 12264

    #2
    I look at sportsbetting like I do investing...I keep my money with Morgan Stanley and Wells Fargo because they are established, trusted companies...

    in sportsbetting, I skip out on a bonus or two sometimes to play at quality books, knowing that ultimately it's winning picks that will make me money, not the bonuses or soft lines...picking winners is picking winners...

    you are welcome to search out whatever books you want, but especially with the new bill that was signed I think you will be scammed again...you'd think getting scammed by BOS would be enough, but if you want more punishment, be my guest...

    GL new guy...
    Comment
    • imgv94
      SBR Posting Legend
      • 11-16-05
      • 17192

      #3
      Newguy..

      Why even take a chance? Why not just stick with the established/trusted books that have been around awhile and have solid backing?

      Betting on these games is enough of a gamble. We shouldn't be gambling on whether or not we're gonna receive our money if we win.. By going with a book rated C or under that is exactly what you would be doing..
      Comment
      • BadAzz
        SBR Sharp
        • 08-10-05
        • 324

        #4
        I never went to the F land so I cannot really comment on those. I happily play at some D books, but never intentionally joined one. I just happened to be playing in those before I discovered SBR or SBR discovered the books. However, I would have missed a pair of very nice books should I not have joined them. I've been nearly burned once, and that was a c or c+ book I guess, but they eventually paid.

        It is of course important to be careful, but I also think that bonuses / soft lines more than make up for the risk. As long as you know what you are doing I don't see anything wrong with trying them out. It is simple risk/reward thing to me.
        Comment
        • JoshW
          SBR MVP
          • 08-10-05
          • 3431

          #5
          If you are going to play at an F book you better have a sure thing winner in mind. I did it once this year and got paid, but the only risk was if they would pay. I knew I would win the bet. Even then was only for a couple hundred. If you are gambling in a F book, you are risking so much as you have to win your bet and then you have to get paid. Just isn't worth it. You have only been stiffed twice, but if you play at F books your number of stiffs will rise rapidly.
          Comment
          • marc
            SBR MVP
            • 07-15-05
            • 1166

            #6
            If you send an F book $100, and you win a couple of hundred, you might well get paid. But if you send them $1,000, and you win a few thousand, now the chances of getting piad have dropped dramatically.

            If you play at a futurebet site for example, there is a good chance you will get paid, but it might take 6 months before you see your money. So now if you look at the lines and the bonuses, you might say, hey there is a lot of positive expectency here. But what is your cost of carry. If you lose use of your funds for 6 months, how much will that cost you. There are players at internet1x2 who waited years before getting paid. That's what you have to consider when you go somewhere. Not just whetehr you will be stiffed, but whether you will be slow paid. The slow pays can also be very exspensive in the long run.

            In my experience, there is a world of difference between a d- book and an F book. If you go to F, you are asking for trouble.
            Comment
            • Korchnoi
              SBR Sharp
              • 10-20-06
              • 406

              #7
              Originally posted by marc
              If you send an F book $100, and you win a couple of hundred, you might well get paid. But if you send them $1,000, and you win a few thousand, now the chances of getting piad have dropped dramatically.

              If you play at a futurebet site for example, there is a good chance you will get paid, but it might take 6 months before you see your money. So now if you look at the lines and the bonuses, you might say, hey there is a lot of positive expectency here. But what is your cost of carry. If you lose use of your funds for 6 months, how much will that cost you. There are players at internet1x2 who waited years before getting paid. That's what you have to consider when you go somewhere. Not just whetehr you will be stiffed, but whether you will be slow paid. The slow pays can also be very exspensive in the long run.

              In my experience, there is a world of difference between a d- book and an F book. If you go to F, you are asking for trouble.

              Not so much "cost of carry" as discount rate. If you get even money on a bet that you should have gotten -110 on, if there's even a small chance you get stiffed by the book you're better off paying the -110 line at a reputable book.

              Of course, at some point it's worth the risk. I think the original poster asked an interesting question and I'd like to hear some more on this.
              Comment
              • daystrom
                SBR Hustler
                • 03-05-06
                • 60

                #8
                korchnoi, I still think you got a raw deal in Merano. How can anyone play with their only son in jail and wife denied an exit ****?
                Comment
                • wrongturn
                  SBR MVP
                  • 06-06-06
                  • 2228

                  #9
                  Newguy, the F books get F rating because SBR received enough slow pay and no pay complains to justify it. The default rating for new books is D? Now, who knows the exact chance of getting out of 4k from such books. Only the books themselves know. All we know is it is not much better than sending money to Nigeria.
                  Comment
                  • Newguyintown
                    SBR Sharp
                    • 12-24-05
                    • 348

                    #10
                    "you are welcome to search out whatever books you want, but especially with the new bill that was signed I think you will be scammed again...you'd think getting scammed by BOS would be enough, but if you want more punishment, be my guest..."

                    I addressed this. I do not want punishment. But what about all the money I won from BOS? What about all the money I won from all the BOS clones? Shouldn't you factor that in? Its a risk. I don't like getting scammed at all- I'm just saying it might be worth some risk.

                    "Why even take a chance? Why not just stick with the established/trusted books that have been around awhile and have solid backing?"

                    Again, one takes the chance because of the reward.

                    "I did it once this year and got paid, but the only risk was if they would pay. I knew I would win the bet."

                    Which book, Lakerfan- can you say? My bets are not "sure things" just good bets.



                    N G T
                    Comment
                    • Newguyintown
                      SBR Sharp
                      • 12-24-05
                      • 348

                      #11
                      Well what if I can narrow the choices even more.

                      By going to the Blacklist, you can see exactly why the book is a D- through F-. The problem is maybe 65% of these books have no notations by them. So what type of information does SBR have on these with absolutely no comments. Obviously no Payout problems, right?

                      N G T
                      Comment
                      • tacomax
                        SBR Hall of Famer
                        • 08-10-05
                        • 9619

                        #12
                        Looks like you've convinced yourself, best of luck!
                        Originally posted by pags11
                        SBR would never get rid of me...ever...
                        Originally posted by BuddyBear
                        I'd probably most likely chose Pags to jack off too.
                        Originally posted by curious
                        taco is not a troll, he is a bubonic plague bacteria.
                        Comment
                        • Newguyintown
                          SBR Sharp
                          • 12-24-05
                          • 348

                          #13
                          Yes in some ways I have decided in theory, but not how it would work in practice.

                          The major point of the posts is that the RISK of these books is crude. Hypo- I post up at an F book with no comments regarding payouts. I turn $500 into $2k- it would be useful to know if I have a 5% or 50% chance of getting stiffed. Can this point not be addressed? It would be impossible to make an informed decision without this.

                          Also, learning more about the avoid and blacklists would be good.


                          N G T
                          Comment
                          • Hoja Verdes
                            SBR MVP
                            • 08-23-06
                            • 1403

                            #14
                            Originally posted by tacomax
                            Looks like you've convinced yourself, best of luck!
                            No sh1t.

                            We'll see you in a couple months when you're begging for someone to bail you out.
                            Comment
                            • OCKO
                              SBR Rookie
                              • 08-15-06
                              • 22

                              #15
                              At last, somebody said it. I agree 100% with Newguy's original post. There are MANY good reasons to post-up at a D or F-rated book, and they go way beyond good lines. The reasons, in fact, are too juicy to list in a public forum. There was good money to be made at BOS, and the reward far exceeded the risk. There is still good money to be made at some poorly-rated books, but the planets must align - they have to offer juicy bets and they have to pay.

                              I don't think there is an answer to Newguy's original question. Personally, my lowest-rated book is D-, and I have never ventured below that threshold. Actually, I was planning on exploring all the D-rated books this season, but the recent legislation put a stop to that. I no longer feel comfortable opening new accounts at low-rated books given the additional risk that comes with the new law. For me, I will wait until next summer to see the fallout from all of this.
                              Comment
                              • SBR_John
                                SBR Posting Legend
                                • 07-12-05
                                • 16471

                                #16
                                A lot of good post in this thread both for and against.

                                My take is if there was only a couple of books out there then I'd take a chance on a D. I took chances with locals that I didnt have a clue who they were.

                                But there are sooo many books! I think some poster counted 65 books rated B to A+. Why take a chance at getting screwed? We see players all the time take $500 and run it up to $10,000 completing their rollover. Of course the book isn't gonna pay them so they lost the $500 and ALL the work AND time it took to run it up. Not worth it. You can ask Pinnacle for a $50,000 neteller and get it in 10 minutes. Or you can beg an F book and get Bill involved and months later we may get you your dime but probably not. Again, not worth it.
                                Comment
                                • TLD
                                  SBR Wise Guy
                                  • 12-10-05
                                  • 671

                                  #17
                                  I also think the opening post is a perfectly reasonable one.
                                  Comment
                                  • pags11
                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                    • 08-18-05
                                    • 12264

                                    #18
                                    and I think luckydawgsports.com is an excellent book...
                                    Comment
                                    • imgv94
                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                      • 11-16-05
                                      • 17192

                                      #19
                                      Isn't there a reason why these books are rated D- or lower? C'mon are you guys serious about messing with these books??


                                      I hope not...
                                      Comment
                                      • Dark Horse
                                        SBR Posting Legend
                                        • 12-14-05
                                        • 13764

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Newguyintown
                                        I want to learn all the F books- there's a whole unexplored F-World out there!


                                        If you haven't figured out what the F stands for, go explore the F world. You may run into some F people, who don't give a F about you or your F money.
                                        Comment
                                        • isetcap
                                          SBR MVP
                                          • 12-16-05
                                          • 4006

                                          #21
                                          I messed with BoS to the tune of about $25K in profits when they were D-. Received large bonuses, bets were placed smoothly, and payouts were same day for no charge.

                                          I think the risk/reward analysis NGT is trying to set up for himself is a valid one as long as he is properly evaluating his risk. I've written extensively about this is the past. But, if he thinks he'll go down the list of D- books and not experience significant problems along the way, then he would be improperly analyzing his risk especially in the current environment of the industry.

                                          I'm not sure there's a lot of people who do this for a living that don't consider occasionally straying into the soft, dark danger zone of the C-D bookmakers in order to augment their return.
                                          Comment
                                          • imgv94
                                            SBR Posting Legend
                                            • 11-16-05
                                            • 17192

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by isetcap
                                            I messed with BoS to the tune of about $25K in profits when they were D-. Received large bonuses, bets were placed smoothly, and payouts were same day for no charge.

                                            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
                                            Comment
                                            • isetcap
                                              SBR MVP
                                              • 12-16-05
                                              • 4006

                                              #23
                                              Yeah, I thought it was pretty funny too. I was still laughing at the dealership when I used the money to help pay for one of my Mercedes.
                                              Comment
                                              • Mudcat
                                                Restricted User
                                                • 07-21-05
                                                • 9287

                                                #24
                                                Based on what I'm reading here, I feel certain that New Guy will make a lot more money in this industry than most of the people who think they are straightening him out.
                                                Comment
                                                • Yoshi
                                                  SBR Wise Guy
                                                  • 08-29-06
                                                  • 548

                                                  #25
                                                  I can see value in going to a D book that offers a 100% bonus or something like that, but i would keep it small...send them a few hundred bucks max.

                                                  I wouldnt touch F thou.
                                                  Comment
                                                  • SBR_John
                                                    SBR Posting Legend
                                                    • 07-12-05
                                                    • 16471

                                                    #26
                                                    I pulled 6 dimes from F rated www.hailmarysportsbook.com. Was offered phone sex by Pearl to cut my withdraw in half and roll it once more. Not into that so I just grabbed the cash.
                                                    Comment
                                                    • BAUS
                                                      SBR MVP
                                                      • 08-10-05
                                                      • 2191

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by SBR_John
                                                      I pulled 6 dimes from F rated www.hailmarysportsbook.com. Was offered phone sex by Pearl to cut my withdraw in half and roll it once more. Not into that so I just grabbed the cash.

                                                      HAHAHAHA! You are a wise man John. Most would have taken the phone sex. Pearl is one hot lady.

                                                      BAUS
                                                      Comment
                                                      • Mr. NBA
                                                        SBR Wise Guy
                                                        • 09-08-06
                                                        • 524

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by SBR_John
                                                        A lot of good post in this thread both for and against.

                                                        My take is if there was only a couple of books out there then I'd take a chance on a D. I took chances with locals that I didnt have a clue who they were.

                                                        But there are sooo many books! I think some poster counted 65 books rated B to A+. Why take a chance at getting screwed? We see players all the time take $500 and run it up to $10,000 completing their rollover. Of course the book isn't gonna pay them so they lost the $500 and ALL the work AND time it took to run it up. Not worth it. You can ask Pinnacle for a $50,000 neteller and get it in 10 minutes. Or you can beg an F book and get Bill involved and months later we may get you your dime but probably not. Again, not worth it.
                                                        John you are waaaaaayyyyy off with your post. You would get that money in under 5 min.....not 10 min. lol


                                                        mn
                                                        Comment
                                                        • Arilou
                                                          SBR Sharp
                                                          • 07-16-06
                                                          • 475

                                                          #29
                                                          Some good points here, but the central question is still unanswered: How to generate a real % chance that you will get your money, given the rating of the book and presumably the amount you're trying to withdraw. If we're as much about the odds as we say we are and like to think we are, that's what matters. Keep in mind that you only take this risk once. If you found a book where you were reguarly offered good value, you get that edge every time you turn over your money, so if you got +100 instead of -110 reliably, that's not that big a deal the first time but if you turn your money over ten times you've doubled your bankroll... and now if there's a 25% chance of getting stiffed, it's actually worth taking that chance. It's not safe, of course not, but it's the E.V. play. But when people say 'why take a chance' there's a huge difference between 5%, 25% and 75%. It's certainly not for everyone, but there are places where anyone smart enough to be reading this thread will reliably turn that 1K into 10K...
                                                          Comment
                                                          • Newguyintown
                                                            SBR Sharp
                                                            • 12-24-05
                                                            • 348

                                                            #30
                                                            "Some good points here, but the central question is still unanswered: How to generate a real % chance that you will get your money, given the rating of the book and presumably the amount you're trying to withdraw. If we're as much about the odds as we say we are and like to think we are, that's what matters."

                                                            Thank you, I keep asking this question and just CAN'T get an answer! What are the chances!

                                                            Anyway, as an update I still haven't joined any F books as of yet. I've been researching BetRoyal and BetUS (both C or C- I think) and looks like I'll take a shot at both of those, so still a ways away from the dread F-bomb.


                                                            New Guy
                                                            Comment
                                                            • Mudcat
                                                              Restricted User
                                                              • 07-21-05
                                                              • 9287

                                                              #31
                                                              I have made a ton of money at Royal over the years. They have a dude with a history of scams in ownership - so there's your risk - but the reward for me has been huge.

                                                              Here's a tip: ever since some discussions I had with Richard Jones a couple years ago - which sprang from a forum issue - I have received my payouts like clockwork. My theory is they have my account flagged as a forum regular so they don't mess with my payouts and thus avoid bad pub.

                                                              Actually though, from what I have been hearing, they have been getting better with payouts across-the-board regardless. I don't hear nearly so many complaints as in the pre-Chester days.

                                                              As for F books, I would be glad to provide you with first-hand info if I had any but I have never delved into that territory. I have strategically used plenty of C's and D's but I don't see myself ever going the "F" route.
                                                              Comment
                                                              • HAPPY BOY
                                                                SBR Hall of Famer
                                                                • 08-10-05
                                                                • 7109

                                                                #32
                                                                been burned, you older forum members know the story, ESB F booked me for 2k (they did pay 3k out of my 5k total) then stopped paying me. even had my life threatend by some Jamaican shit head. Anyways, its like penny stocks you can take a chance and get a big payout but most of the times U find SBR and ask Bill to help u get your money back. Thats how I got to meet all you wonderful folks. It cost me 2k to meek, Taco, BBD, Imgv94, Razz, Illusion, JJ, etc... that alone was worth 2k .......
                                                                Comment
                                                                • pags11
                                                                  SBR Posting Legend
                                                                  • 08-18-05
                                                                  • 12264

                                                                  #33
                                                                  mudcat,

                                                                  that's actually a pretty good point because I think these forums are pretty powerful and I don't think books like any negative pub, especially ones like Royal that already are on thin ice...
                                                                  Comment
                                                                  • wrongturn
                                                                    SBR MVP
                                                                    • 06-06-06
                                                                    • 2228

                                                                    #34
                                                                    I don't think anybody here can generate a reliable % chance for getting money out of F books. But the chance decreases dramatically if you run 1k deposit into over 4k, that is for sure. On the other hand, you may have 100% chance if your 1k becomes 200 and get another 100% bonus for your next reload.
                                                                    Comment
                                                                    • SBR_John
                                                                      SBR Posting Legend
                                                                      • 07-12-05
                                                                      • 16471

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by wrongturn
                                                                      I don't think anybody here can generate a reliable % chance for getting money out of F books. But the chance decreases dramatically if you run 1k deposit into over 4k, that is for sure. On the other hand, you may have 100% chance if your 1k becomes 200 and get another 100% bonus for your next reload.
                                                                      I wish I'd of said that... words soo true.
                                                                      Comment
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