Don't bullshit me.

onthewhat · 01-14-09, 01:43 AM

Kingctb27 · 01-14-09, 01:48 AM

Long day?

Shortstop · 01-14-09, 01:51 AM

If you don't mind me asking, Where is the fraud coming from? Hit and run posters, veteran posters, both

Fraud sucks

pimike · 01-14-09, 01:51 AM

Justin7 · 01-14-09, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by Shortstop

If you don't mind me asking, Where is the fraud coming from? Hit and run posters, veteran posters, both

Fraud sucks

I've never had an established poster bullshit me. I *have* had a "borderline" dispute (where reasonable people could see both sides) involving an established poster, but the facts favored the SBR poster, and the book complied with my settlement recommendation. I won't name the book, because they handled it fairly and had a reasonable grounds to investigate the player, even though I disagreed with their conclusion at the end (not to mention the player was paid in full).

bigboydan · 01-14-09, 02:10 AM

I've never seen you so upset before Justin.

MilfDriller · 01-14-09, 02:17 AM

Hey Justin,

Can you reccommend a good book for an international player? Non US?

My friend has Pinnacle and wants to line up 2 or 3 more. Also, mind you, my friend doesn't speak English too well.

Also, I love SBR, but you and BBD know of any European forums that may be similar to SBR? My friend would like to meet with minds for those people who dance with Pinnacle, Neteller, and the like.

Thoughts are appreciated.

InTheHole · 01-14-09, 02:39 AM

You daMan

MilfDriller · 01-14-09, 02:44 AM

THx, Hole. I appreciate it.

Any suggestions?

CS-Cedrick · 01-14-09, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by Justin7

I've never had an established poster bullshit me. I *have* had a "borderline" dispute (where reasonable people could see both sides) involving an established poster, but the facts favored the SBR poster, and the book complied with my settlement recommendation. I won't name the book, because they handled it fairly and had a reasonable grounds to investigate the player, even though I disagreed with their conclusion at the end (not to mention the player was paid in full).

If I may, there's still some posters that try to help out a lil' bit, in my case, I'm a customer service rep at a book located in Costa Rica who's just trying to educate customers in regards to policies in general, but, it sometimes differ from book to book as of what to do in specific cases. If it serves of something, anything in regards to any general question of how things are held into the business you can ask me and I surely do my best to give you the most balanced answer possible.

Tsoprano · 01-14-09, 03:41 AM

Let it all out out Justin, vent pal.

Dark Horse · 01-14-09, 04:09 AM

Originally posted by Justin7

But *all* cases of sportsbook fraud have involved D- books, or unrated books.

Really? So are you saying that all C books are safe? Or do books get downgraded to D- or lower after the fraud? (Cascade was among A books).

jjgold · 01-14-09, 05:35 AM

Most gamblers lie period

Most untrustworthy people in world next to druggies

pico · 01-14-09, 05:59 AM

justin, you used to be a lawyer, so you should be used to liars and cheats

robmpink · 01-14-09, 06:36 AM

Some assistant managers lie at A+ books as well then deny things when it comes down to it. Specifically at the "players paradise." Whether it is an a+ or d+ book get everything in writing.

Bread · 01-14-09, 07:16 AM

This post woke me up real good this morning.

Angry Justin scares me.

Robyn · 01-14-09, 08:00 AM

Hi Justin.

pavyracer · 01-14-09, 09:19 AM

Justin can never make it as a cop or lawyer. He doesn't like bullshiting.

It's like me saying "jjgold, don't bullshit me. I know you don't have ghosts!"

BeatTheJerk · 01-14-09, 09:40 AM

I love the passion and the more aggressive attitude Justin well done my friend. This will allow you to settle your players disputes alot faster if you just cut out all bullshit and get to the facts as you smartly stated ....................

RogueJuror · 01-14-09, 09:52 AM

I would have prefer this post in a video.

eyeball · 01-14-09, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Justin7

Damn it! I get so sick and tired of people trying to bullshit me in disputes! Do both players and sportsbooks think I'm an idiot? Do they think I don't know what the hell I'm doing? Do they forget that I enjoy tracking down bad guys, but mainly bet sports for a living, and have been on both sides of the fence?

65% of my disputes involve some sort of alleged player fraud. My goal is to get to the truth, and handle it fairly. I'll look at things based on the facts and my personal experiences. I'm not claiming that I've personally signed up with numerous "possibly fraudulent accounts", but I'm not denying it either. The point is I know the game. I know how it's done, how to ID 95% of the frauds, and how to ID 75% of the claims falsely brought by sportsbooks. So why do people keep trying to bullshit me, when odds are I'll either catch it right from the get go, or catch it when I investigate it "full contact"?

Just so I don't confuse people... I probably see 50 cases of player fraud for every 1 case of "provable sportsbook fraud"... But *all* cases of sportsbook fraud have involved D- books, or unrated books.

Back to my point. Don't bullshit me.

Its good you said 65% is player fraud because most posters allways think the Book is at fault.

Good job Justin!

treece · 01-14-09, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by jjgold

Most gamblers lie period

Most untrustworthy people in world next to druggies

Alcoholics are the worst. My uncle was a huge liar.

accuscoresucks · 01-14-09, 11:18 AM

hope your days get better j7

keep up the great detective work

Peep · 01-14-09, 11:25 AM

Agree.

When I was doing player/book disputes at Rx and OGD, it was almost always the player messing around and, even more boring, about a bonus dispute.

And of course the book would ice the cake with unclear bonus rules, even to themselves.

I HATE bonus disputes......

Bullajami · 01-15-09, 05:49 AM

You perform an invaluable service for the online sportsbetting industry , good sir.

Don't let the liars get you down, Big Dawg. It is inevitable that you will have to deal with many in your role as arbitrator.

trixtrix · 01-15-09, 07:52 AM

i see d might be downing too many coke-zeros..

otherwise someone as math-oriented as you would realize you're getting b.s'd b/c b'sing would be the optimal play in this case:

1.) the only time you would get a lie is when the player realizes he's 100% in the wrong (otherwise it would be an argument, not a b.s), and the book has confiscated his funds. therefore, w/out b.sing you, the chance of recovery of the lost funds is 0%. so ev of not b.sing you is 0.

2.) by b.sing you, no matter how great of a lie-detector you are, there is some small arbitrary chance (x% which is greater than zero) that you might agree/believe him/her. in which case, there is then a further chance (y% which is greater than zero) of you convincing the book to return the funds. so the e.v of b.sing you = x% * y% * notional of lost funds.

hence if you look at it objectively in this case, you should not get too steamed since they're simply making the logical play. i understand your frustration over the time/effort wasted however..

Richkas · 01-15-09, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by Justin7

Damn it! I get so sick and tired of people trying to bullshit me in disputes! Do both players and sportsbooks think I'm an idiot? Do they think I don't know what the hell I'm doing? Do they forget that I enjoy tracking down bad guys, but mainly bet sports for a living, and have been on both sides of the fence?

65% of my disputes involve some sort of alleged player fraud. My goal is to get to the truth, and handle it fairly. I'll look at things based on the facts and my personal experiences. I'm not claiming that I've personally signed up with numerous "possibly fraudulent accounts", but I'm not denying it either. The point is I know the game. I know how it's done, how to ID 95% of the frauds, and how to ID 75% of the claims falsely brought by sportsbooks. So why do people keep trying to bullshit me, when odds are I'll either catch it right from the get go, or catch it when I investigate it "full contact"?

Just so I don't confuse people... I probably see 50 cases of player fraud for every 1 case of "provable sportsbook fraud"... But *all* cases of sportsbook fraud have involved D- books, or unrated books.

Back to my point. Don't bullshit me.

Out of all the people here, I am sure the General can relate to your frustations better than anybody else.

St.Aquinas · 01-15-09, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by RogueJuror

I would have prefer this post in a video.

Second that Rogue!

But, I think he's pissed at me for giving him shit on the "quasi legal" thing...lol.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK JUSTIN-BUT SERIOUSLY, VIDEO NEXT TIME BUDDY!

ringemup · 01-15-09, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by MilfDriller

Hey Justin,

Can you reccommend a good book for an international player? Non US?

My friend has Pinnacle and wants to line up 2 or 3 more. Also, mind you, my friend doesn't speak English too well.

Also, I love SBR, but you and BBD know of any European forums that may be similar to SBR? My friend would like to meet with minds for those people who dance with Pinnacle, Neteller, and the like.

Thoughts are appreciated.

Milfdriller, check ur mySBR board for mi suggestions. get ur friend the best deal. GL to both u n ur friend.

tacomax · 01-15-09, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by Justin7

The point is I know the game. I know how it's done, how to ID 95% of the frauds, and how to ID 75% of the claims falsely brought by sportsbooks. So why do people keep trying to bullshit me, when odds are I'll either catch it right from the get go, or catch it when I investigate it "full contact"?

1) Do you make it perfectly clear that this is the case from the outset of every dispute you handle?

2) Whether or not you do, does partial or full non-disclosure of the facts from the player adversely your final conclusion on the basis that you would find out the player's modus operandi whether he told you from the outset or not?

3) Did you know that a human can outrun a grizzly bear?

pico · 01-15-09, 07:43 PM

i can to see justin yell and cussing like jj in a video

Justin7 · 01-15-09, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by tacomax

1) Do you make it perfectly clear that this is the case from the outset of every dispute you handle?

2) Whether or not you do, does partial or full non-disclosure of the facts from the player adversely your final conclusion on the basis that you would find out the player's modus operandi whether he told you from the outset or not?

3) Did you know that a human can outrun a grizzly bear?

It's a very interesting dynamic. I have two roles, and they occasionally have a conflict. Those roles are 1. Mediator/judge/dispute resolver; and 2. player advocate. There exists a possibility of a conflict.

If I see a conflict coming, I warn the player... "Be very careful what you claim" or such. "If you say X, the implications are Y. If you admit this and the book cannot prove it, ...". Fortunately, these subtle conflicts have never been material. In the cases of player fraud, it has always been flagrant where the book is 100% right, and the player was lying multiple times from the start to me.

The more common situation is I start off trying to figure out what happened. If you have a complex confusing fact pattern, sometimes the book sees fraud when the player really hasn't done anything wrong. In that case, I shift focus. Make the book prove its case, and argue for the player.

Is there a possible conflict of interest? You bet. It hasn't come up yet though, and it isn't feasible to have 2+ advocates for each dispute. We're so swamped, we can barely get 1 to each.

tacomax · 01-15-09, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Justin7

It's a very interesting dynamic. I have two roles, and they occasionally have a conflict. Those roles are 1. Mediator/judge/dispute resolver; and 2. player advocate. There exists a possibility of a conflict.

Although you're wearing two hats, I'd say the possibility of a conflict is minor. The book has the backing of the book and it knows every trick out there. As the player advocate, you can prepare a case for the player and then look at both views independently to see where the answer lies or where the middle ground is. In practice, I guess.

My point was more: if you you're acting on behalf of the player and then mediating as well and subsequently found out something the player knowingly concealed but was later forced to admit, would you be more inclined so side with the book (as opposed to if the player is upfront from the start)?

Justin7 · 01-15-09, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by tacomax

Although you're wearing two hats, I'd say the possibility of a conflict is minor. The book has the backing of the book and it knows every trick out there. As the player advocate, you can prepare a case for the player and then look at both views independently to see where the answer lies or where the middle ground is. In practice, I guess.

My point was more: if you you're acting on behalf of the player and then mediating as well and subsequently found out something the player knowingly concealed but was later forced to admit, would you be more inclined so side with the book (as opposed to if the player is upfront from the start)?

I've never had a situation where I put on the "player advocate" hat, and found the player lying or concealing something. If that happened, I'd weigh that to make sure I was advocating the right result. In every case I've had where there was "concealing", the player knew he should have disclosed it from the start, and usually lied about other issues. In most cases, the book can tip me off to this.