Latest no-juice screwing

mad · 08-02-06, 01:01 PM

I might be stating the obvious, but have you contacted Dozer & Co. with this info?

derek · 08-02-06, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by mad

I might be stating the obvious, but have you contacted Dozer & Co. with this info?

actually no, I was under the impression this was a TOW issue.I'm very much a Noob at sports betting.

If there is anything SBR can do to help me it would be greatly appreciated.Please send me a private message if there is anything that can be done. I will be happy to provide all the info I have.

Bill Dozer · 08-02-06, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by derek

So it seems players are getting screwed over AGAIN on the no-juice issue.TOW states bailouts are only good for players total balance as of JUNE 5th.
I put in for my first cashout early june when my balance was 2,600.I was never paid and never placed another bet. I was told yesterday I am only able to get a bailout for $600 because that was my balance on June 5th.

I have screen shots of my balance page and account history page up till JULY 16th but TOW is not even interested in looking at them.
It is my understanding that TOW was in daily contact with no-juice up untill JULY 11th so why are they using balances from JUNE 5th??Maybe they knew no-juice was going under on june 5th but didn't feel like sharing the info with thier members for another 6 weeks

any suggestions SBR

Hi Derek,

There really isn't anything we can do with these third party deals. SBR has received a bunch of emails from upset players who don't want to say publicly that they are getting hosed.

If the bonus offer is what is being given to you in exchange for the guaranteed insurance money, you should be upset. If the bonus offer is something not part of any preexisting arrangement it might be the best and only thing going.

SBR_John · 08-02-06, 01:56 PM

derek, there is nothing we can do to help you to collect from tow. You could report tow to the Florida Attorney General for running an insurance scam but it would probably be a waste of time.

I think its time to move on and not look back. Again, I'm real sorry you were scammed.

Uncle B · 08-02-06, 03:06 PM

there are a number of places you can send a complaint about the scams being perpetrated by Roberto, and theonlinewire.

http://miami.fbi.gov/complain.htm

thats a good start.

also, the FDLE, who i am pretty sure is already investiging some of his business practices, would appreciate any info you care to send them.

and, as John said, the Florida States Attorneys office is a good place to voice your complaints as well.

derek · 08-02-06, 03:38 PM

thanks for the info guys and you can be sure i will not use any book without going through sbr first.I just hope all TOW customers see what's going on and take thier business elswhere.

So my final bailout looks like this... $2600 stolen from no-juice and I can get a $600 bailout at 10X rollover weeeeeeeeeeee

Uncle B · 08-02-06, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by derek

thanks for the info guys and you can be sure i will not use any book without going through sbr first.I just hope all TOW customers see what's going on and take thier business elswhere.

So my final bailout looks like this... $2600 stolen from no-juice and I can get a $600 bailout at 10X rollover weeeeeeeeeeee

you definitely got screwed.

$2600 is one Hell of an expensive lesson, but, considering some of these people have been screwed by betonstars and bet4aces and no juice, you didn't get burned to awfully bad...in comparison, at least.

the fraudulant insurance thing, imo, just adds insult to injury.

Doug · 08-02-06, 05:35 PM

The bail-out isn't worth a whole lot anyway assuming you match and roll 10X the deposit and bonus at full juice.

Doug · 08-02-06, 05:50 PM

Something I wrote awhile back about these bailout bonuses, repeat request for Ganchrow's opinion.

-----------------------------------------------------------

100% bonus at full vig is good if you have a balance small enough that you can attempt to bet both sides of a game and get out of it quick.

If you pick 50% and roll out of it the way they want you to, you lose the entire bonus ( bailout).

Take $1,000 deposit and $1,000 bonus and -110 lines and 100 equal plays.

risk $220 to win $200 on all. Go 50-50

50 winners X200 = +10,000
50 losers X220 = -11,000

Balance is now the $1,000 you sent in. Where's your bailout ?

You'd have lost $500 betting at -105 and going 50-50. So the offer has some value but many will lose the bonus here, and possibly some of the post-up.

Chano, I had significant money at NJ at one time. I got out in time the first time they slow-paid me.

This deal is better than nothing, but it will be nothing for many.The 5X no match, no winnings deal by Royal is much better than the Legends deal.

Lets see Ganchrow's take on it since he's the math expert.

Ganchrow · 08-02-06, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Doug

100% bonus at full vig is good if you have a balance small enough that you can attempt to bet both sides of a game and get out of it quick.

If you pick 50% and roll out of it the way they want you to, you lose the entire bonus ( bailout).

Take $1,000 deposit and $1,000 bonus and -110 lines and 100 equal plays.

risk $220 to win $200 on all. Go 50-50

50 winners X200 = +10,000
50 losers X220 = -11,000

Balance is now the $1,000 you sent in. Where's your bailout ?

You'd have lost $500 betting at -105 and going 50-50. So the offer has some value but many will lose the bonus here, and possibly some of the post-up.

Chano, I had significant money at NJ at one time. I got out in time the first time they slow-paid me.

This deal is better than nothing, but it will be nothing for many.The 5X no match, no winnings deal by Royal is much better than the Legends deal.

Lets see Ganchrow's take on it since he's the math expert.

Once again you're pretty much right on here, Doug. As Legendz counts risk amount towards meeting wagering requirements, then making minium sized bets at full (4.545%) juice, you'd be giving back about 20 x 4.545% ≈ 90.909% of the original "bailout".

This means that were you "bailed out" for $1,000, the real value of Legendz supposed largesse (to a minimum bettor) would only be $90.91.

Of course, if we assume the bettor unconstrained by any maximum wager size beyond bankroll (either book determined or self-imposed) then the expected value would be considerably higher (70.032% -- see this thread and note the spreadsheet attached at post #18).

Doug · 08-02-06, 09:52 PM

I did it simpler with win, it's not really standard which counts, so if win then the bonus is shot in theory by rolling it and picking 50%.

Thanks for backing up what I was pretty sure was correct, Ganchrow.

This most effects the guy that has to send in 5k or better because he can't take a shot to get out in one bet ( over most limits).

One could win a ton on 100% bonus with 10X rollovers if many shops offered it, but you'd have to only deposit say $500 at a time, so you bet $1,000 and the other side at Mansion.

This bailout is like nothing for the guy stuck 10k at Nojuice. It's about like no vig betting for a time.

Sorry to disappoint those that thought the bailout was real.

Ganchrow · 08-02-06, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Doug

it's not really standard which counts, so if win then the bonus is shot in theory by rolling it and picking 50%.

Legendz uses risk amount in determining wagering requirements.

Originally posted by Doug

This bailout is ... like no vig betting for a time.

That's definitely a good way of looking at it.

Doug · 08-03-06, 12:37 AM

sure does suck for the guy that thinks this corrects the incurred loss. It would require either no matching deposit or -105 to do much for those owed.

Uncle B · 08-03-06, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Doug

I did it simpler with win, it's not really standard which counts, so if win then the bonus is shot in theory by rolling it and picking 50%.

Thanks for backing up what I was pretty sure was correct, Ganchrow.

This most effects the guy that has to send in 5k or better because he can't take a shot to get out in one bet ( over most limits).

One could win a ton on 100% bonus with 10X rollovers if many shops offered it, but you'd have to only deposit say $500 at a time, so you bet $1,000 and the other side at Mansion.

This bailout is like nothing for the guy stuck 10k at Nojuice. It's about like no vig betting for a time.

Sorry to disappoint those that thought the bailout was real.

no, it doesn't qualify as a bailout by any means.

Now, if the 'tow funds safety' proigram hadn't been a fraud, then the plyers could have taken the $2500 that roberto had promised them , and used it towards the required post-up.

As is, you are getting a good bonus at an average shop, in lieu of the money you had stolen.

Might be better, in some cases, just to eat the loss, and chalk it up to a very expensive lesson in who you can/can't trust in these forums.

slash · 08-03-06, 09:24 PM

I agree with nutts. The players elegible for the insurance should be paid with the insurance. In case this doesn't cover their full balance, bail outs should be pursued for the remaining amount. Forcing insured players to accept a bail out is not fair.

Uncle B · 08-03-06, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by slash

I agree with nutts. The players elegible for the insurance should be paid with the insurance. In case this doesn't cover their full balance, bail outs should be pursued for the remaining amount. Forcing insured players to accept a bail out is not fair.

Of course it's unfair.

The players that registered for the "insurance" through tow, obviously did so, thinking, "o.k., this is a high risk shop, BUT, i am now covered for at least $2,000 cash.. so, i'll take a chance.".

Only to find out after the fact, that the supposed "funds safety program" was nothing but a marketing ploy.

It's fraud, plain and simple.

SBR_John · 08-04-06, 01:08 AM

Forcing insured players to accept a bail out is not fair.

Doug started a thread on these so-called insurance programs. It seems like everyone has them these days but will any ever pay? Not likely. Why? Because they are not real. The money remains in robertos pocket and he figures 'what the heck, fvcke'em'. Marty and Ken simply blurt out they will cover players if they get their money stolen at BOS. Will they pay? No.

Bottomline is do not be suckered by "insurance" from a forum owner who holds the money.

Uncle B · 08-04-06, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by SBR_John

Doug started a thread on these so-called insurance programs. It seems like everyone has them these days but will any ever pay? Not likely. Why? Because they are not real. The money remains in robertos pocket and he figures 'what the heck, fvcke'em'. Marty and Ken simply blurt out they will cover players if they get their money stolen at BOS. Will they pay? No.

Bottomline is do not be suckered by "insurance" from a forum owner who holds the money.

not entirely true.

Peep paid out every single penny owed, to every single player who signed up at BetPanam and APEX through the forum.

i don't think it's 'insurance' that is flawed, just the majority of the forum owners who claim to offer it.

Roberto is a thief, to be blunt.

He collected advertising money for these shops, he collected referral fees and affiliate fees for these shops..In large part, because players signed up through tow thinking they were "insured".

He pocketed their post-up funds with no reservations, and when these scam sportsbooks closed shop, he repayed those players that lined his pocket with their post up monies, with a glorified bonus with a 10x rollover.

Anyone can spin that anyway they wish, but, bottom line is, it is theft.

These players that are being forced to accept this pathetic excuse for a "bailout", are victims of fraud.

bigboydan · 08-04-06, 02:11 AM

i was mod'ing at the OGD at the time when peep distributed all those funds, and can confrim that peep did. I also remember crazy ivan crying about it too

Uncle B · 08-04-06, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by bigboydan

i was mod'ing at the OGD at the time when peep distributed all those funds, and can confrim that peep did. I also remember crazy ivan crying about it too

Oh my God, i forgot all about that annoying little asshat, and his posting over and over and over again, begging Peep to pay him the advertisement money panam owed him, for his forum.

was almost as funny, as it was annoying, actually.

yokspot · 08-04-06, 07:24 AM

I suppose the bottom line is: are all the players happy with the deal? For myself, if I were out 15k at No Juice and entitled to a FSP share, the heck I would want the 2.5K to offset my bailout burden by about 100K's worth of rollover.

As far as I can see, no players have complained yet.

The only real issue is that those funds be fully redistributed back to the players. Amount per player, order of entitlement etc would be a secondary issue. If Mr. 15K didn't receive his entitlement, but it went to another player, that would suck for Mr. 15K but would be fair in relation to the main issue.

slash · 08-04-06, 08:59 AM

If the book is declared insolvent and unable to pay, the insurance should be paid out first. Afterwards possible bail outs can be arranged for remaining balances.

Bill Dozer · 08-04-06, 09:55 AM

If players want to know if they can trust an individual, look at the books they are promoting. BOS scammed players and was a a Super Platinum 10.5+ until the hour they announced advertising was canceled...2.
Is it a surprise that the money is the priority when players get hosed?

Insurance sounds good but there hasn't been one that isn't more than just some form of bonus. Yes, players who click on the link get some extra value with their sign-up. But, what happens when he hits the Marlins future or a ten teamer?

Insurance is a way to take money from a shit book without risking the forum's biggest asset, its posters. Sure, you may be able to cover your rear so that a prominent poster doesn't form a vendetta against the forum but you are still sending web surfers into a risky situation. The book gets exposed to more than just the posters on the site and the webmaster knows this. It's irresponsible.

To not pay on any deal as per the listed terms is theft.

mvbski · 08-04-06, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by yokspot

As far as I can see, no players have complained yet.

That's because if they do TOE will just edit or delete the post and will find a way to screw them over again.

SBR_John · 08-04-06, 10:21 AM

At the end of the day players have to take responsibilty. If you visited this site or others you would have known that tow was far from honorable.

If a player runs into snake oil salesman telling them he knows a new book, will vouch for them and he will insure players money then that player needs to investigate, not leap.

NONE of those books tow promoted had an SBR rating above D+. end of story.

magnavox · 08-04-06, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by SBR_John

NONE of those books tow promoted had an SBR rating above D+. end of story.

You're forgetting RCS, John.

Doug · 08-04-06, 01:36 PM

I just signed up for the new TOW deal. $100 to www.worldwidewagering.com gets $100 FP ! Warning CS sucks and English is bad, but B- ( I think) here.