Tradesports.....Cancelling bets

[hanco21]

Ok, I had a problem with tradesports in my last transaction . The whole idea on the trade exchange is buying and selling.

Here is the contract.

Baseball
other Mlb games. Tue July 4th
Florida (Olsen) at Washington (Patterson). Marlins -1.5 runs
-------------------------------


This means its the run line and Marlins win by 1.5 runs.

OK, first I put an offer to sell at 55.0... Well someone ended buying 33 shares at 55.0.......Ok so now I have 33 shorted shares (-33). Which means I put 148 to win roughly 181. OK well I decided to buy 33 shares at 40. So I should make 1.50 per share. Ok everything works out fine. The game starts and then I see they decided to cancel the sell 55 but ot keep buy 40.

Ok now I have +33 shares, then I get a message saying Trade Busted: Sell 33@55.0 MLB.FLA@WAS.FLA-1.5. Well OK cancel the whole contract then, Don't keep one side and not the other. I have seen them cancel the whole contract and start over if something is wrong with the contract.

Another thing when cancelling the contract it says I bought 33 shares @55 when I really bought the at 40. So it not only cancelled the contract but adjusted the price in their favor from +150 to -125.

I mean come on I thought this was a trade exchange and people are buying and selling all the time. Not only the cancelled one side of my contract but they decided to put it at a price they wanted.

Am I wrong here because I feel I got cheated out of buying and selling contracts. If a trade exchange does this sort of action shouldn't they be downgraded?


Whats your thought because I do not know what to do. I have never had a problem like this.

[bigboydan]

i hear where your comming from bud. if you feel you really need some assistance with this one. send an email to Assistance@SportsbookReview.com

[hanco21]

i hear where your comming from bud. if you feel you really need some assistance with this one. send an email to Assistance@SportsbookReview.com

Hi Dan.....

hmm, I must be in the wrong here because no one is even commenting on this. I had customer service literally hang the phone up on me because I tried to explain I put an offer on the table and someone matched it. I was not rude just trying to state my case. I thought this was suppose to be a trade exchange. I have had them void contracts completely but to keep one and not the other. All I know is if I contacted them and asked them to void contracts, would they? Not a one in a million chance,

[tacomax]

Dunno what to say, never used them. Best bet is to contact Bill if you've having trouble which I presume you've already done.

If you want to get a few more replies the next time it happens, then just lie and say that the book in question was BetOnSports or BetRoyal. At least Chuck Sims would have a field day.

[hanco21]

Dunno what to say, never used them. Best bet is to contact Bill if you've having trouble which I presume you've already done.

If you want to get a few more replies the next time it happens, then just lie and say that the book in question was BetOnSports or BetRoyal. At least Chuck Sims would have a field day.

Taco,

I sure feel like I got BOSSED. Have a nice 4th.

[Dark Horse]

After every trade you should have a record of the trade.
So if you sold 33x55 you should have a record of that. Same for the other trade.

If you don't have a record (in message box), the trade never happened. Sometimes trading is very fast, so offers can be off the table without a trader realizing it.

Obviously, if you do have a record for both trades, the trades should stand.

[hanco21]

After every trade you should have a record of the trade.
So if you sold 33x55 you should have a record of that. Same for the other trade.

If you don't have a record (in message box), the trade never happened. Sometimes trading is very fast, so offers can be off the table without a trader realizing it.

Obviously, if you do have a record for both trades, the trades should stand.

I understand what you are saying. Yes, I originally had (-33) shares as someone matched my offer. If you look at the 2nd line below it says 67 shares remaining of 100. I have been with them for 5 years and they pull this. I then bought at 41 as where it says filled. The problem with tradesports they have deleted that original sell order so the only proof I have is below and the email they sent me.


220720763 Limit Buy 33 0 41.0 (USD) 4Jul 5:58 PM GFS

Filled

220720627 Limit Sell 100 67 55.0 (USD) 4Jul 5:57 PM GFS Cancelled

[Ganchrow]

What is Tradesports' justification for this?

[hanco21]

What is Tradesports' justification for this?

Basically they said the offer was met at unfair price. I thought this was suppose to be a sports exchange. Buying and selling like the stock market. Tradsports contract can be complicated if you don't pay attention, I for one have bought contracts at unfair markets and they never voided contracts for me. I put an offer up and if someone matched it.

[Santo]

The other side of the contract was probably a market maker. They introduced rules a while back that say if a MM puts up an incorrect offer it can be cancelled, so they continue to provide volume.

[Santo]

Material Unrepresentative Price Trading

The Exchange rule on Material Unrepresentative Price Trading is designed to ensure as far as practicable that Members who trade at significant bone fide price errors have a mechanism to have the trades investigated by the Exchange and cancelled if the Exchange determines in its absolute right that is the appropriate action in all the circumstances. Furthermore, this rule highlights that Members who take or attempt to take advantage either knowingly or not of Material Unrepresentative Price orders should have no expectation of profiting from the Material Unrepresentative Price orders of other Members.

If the Exchange determines that a transaction in a Contract has taken place at an unrepresentative price the Exchange may, within its sole discretion, cancel the transaction as soon as practicable. The Exchange may consider the following factors when considering whether to cancel a transaction:

(i) the opening price levels of the Contract on the System;

(ii) the current market conditions, including levels of activity, volatility and whether the market was ?in-running?;

(iii) the last trade price for the Contract;

(iv) the information regarding price movements in related markets or Contracts, the release of economic data, or other relevant news immediately before or during the trading session;

(v) a manifest error;

(vi) the proximity of the trade to the close of the market; and/or

(vii) the impact of the erroneous transaction on other transactions

(viii) the fair market price if one exists at the time of the transaction

(ix) the financial significance and/or materiality of the transaction

(x) whether a cancellation would be equitable in the Exchanges absolute opinion on all party?s to the trade when all the circumstances are considered.

When the Exchange cancels a transaction in a Contract because of an unrepresentative price, the Exchange shall promptly notify the Member(s) of the cancellation by electronic mail or through any other means that the Exchange deems appropriate.

A Member that executes a transaction in a Contract at a price that he/she believes is unrepresentative may for a non-refundable fee of $200 (request within 10 minutes when a contract is considered 'in-running' or 'live' by the Exchange in its absolute right, or within one Trading Session in all other circumstances of the Order?s execution) contact the Exchange to seek by mail on help@tradesports.com with a subject line "Material Unrepresentative Price" to cancel the transaction.

If the Member does not have sufficient funds in his or her trading account to cover the non-refundable fee the request will not be entertained by the Exchange. The Exchange will respond to such a request as soon as practicable stating that the request has been received, indicating an approximate time for a formal response and at such time the fee will be taken from the members account.

The Exchange is not obliged to act on any request and the Exchange?s cancellation or modification of transactions pursuant to this Rule will be final.

While it is not possible to comprehensively define an unrepresentative price, purely for guidance purposes only the Exchange may consider a price that is 20% or greater away from what the Exchange considers to be fair value on a 0-100 contract to be unrepresentative price. Furthermore, in volatile, fast moving or in-running markets it is possible that a higher significance level than 20% will be appropriate.

[Ganchrow]

Not that it's likely to be much solace but while the rule might seem indefensible from the perspective of a sports bettor, it's actually quite standard in the US and UK financial trading markets from which Tradesports takes its lead.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't be upset, but at least understand it's not without precedent.

[hanco21]

Material Unrepresentative Price Trading

The Exchange rule on Material Unrepresentative Price Trading is designed to ensure as far as practicable that Members who trade at significant bone fide price errors have a mechanism to have the trades investigated by the Exchange and cancelled if the Exchange determines in its absolute right that is the appropriate action in all the circumstances. Furthermore, this rule highlights that Members who take or attempt to take advantage either knowingly or not of Material Unrepresentative Price orders should have no expectation of profiting from the Material Unrepresentative Price orders of other Members.

If the Exchange determines that a transaction in a Contract has taken place at an unrepresentative price the Exchange may, within its sole discretion, cancel the transaction as soon as practicable. The Exchange may consider the following factors when considering whether to cancel a transaction:

(i) the opening price levels of the Contract on the System;

(ii) the current market conditions, including levels of activity, volatility and whether the market was ?in-running?;

(iii) the last trade price for the Contract;

(iv) the information regarding price movements in related markets or Contracts, the release of economic data, or other relevant news immediately before or during the trading session;

(v) a manifest error;

(vi) the proximity of the trade to the close of the market; and/or

(vii) the impact of the erroneous transaction on other transactions

(viii) the fair market price if one exists at the time of the transaction

(ix) the financial significance and/or materiality of the transaction

(x) whether a cancellation would be equitable in the Exchanges absolute opinion on all party?s to the trade when all the circumstances are considered.

When the Exchange cancels a transaction in a Contract because of an unrepresentative price, the Exchange shall promptly notify the Member(s) of the cancellation by electronic mail or through any other means that the Exchange deems appropriate.

A Member that executes a transaction in a Contract at a price that he/she believes is unrepresentative may for a non-refundable fee of $200 (request within 10 minutes when a contract is considered 'in-running' or 'live' by the Exchange in its absolute right, or within one Trading Session in all other circumstances of the Order?s execution) contact the Exchange to seek by mail on help@tradesports.com with a subject line "Material Unrepresentative Price" to cancel the transaction.

If the Member does not have sufficient funds in his or her trading account to cover the non-refundable fee the request will not be entertained by the Exchange. The Exchange will respond to such a request as soon as practicable stating that the request has been received, indicating an approximate time for a formal response and at such time the fee will be taken from the members account.

The Exchange is not obliged to act on any request and the Exchange?s cancellation or modification of transactions pursuant to this Rule will be final.

While it is not possible to comprehensively define an unrepresentative price, purely for guidance purposes only the Exchange may consider a price that is 20% or greater away from what the Exchange considers to be fair value on a 0-100 contract to be unrepresentative price. Furthermore, in volatile, fast moving or in-running markets it is possible that a higher significance level than 20% will be appropriate.

Am I reading this right. For them to consider a bad price it should be 20% or greater.

If they want to be technical I sold at 55 (+125) and bought at 41 (+144) which is roughly 17%.

[Ganchrow]

Am I reading this right. For them to consider a bad price it should be 20% or greater.

If they want to be technical I sold at 55 (+125) and bought at 41 (+144) which is roughly 17%.

I assume they'd calculate it as (55-41)/41 ≈ 34%.

[JC]

Well, let's first look at the "Buy 33 shares @ 55" That's just their way of canceling the sale of 33 @ 55. So no need to look further at that.

You shorted 33 shares @ 55 and bought back 33 shares @ 40, all before the game started. How long before the game was each transaction? How far apart were the two transactions? When did they cancel the sale of 33 @ 55? Before, during, or after the game?

What are they claiming the correct bid should have been when you sold them @ 55? If you bought them back immediately @ 40, I have to assume the "correct" bid was at least $35.

Correct me if I am wrong but each TS contract has a full value of $10, not $100. So even if TS took the other guy's buy at $55 and sold it at the market which is how you are supposed to handle an error, they would have lost $20. In their system the total amount of money involved here would be $66.

Instead of eating a $66 error, whether it is TS or the market maker, or whoever the buyer is, they are making you go through all of this nonsense. I have been around trading my whole adult life. I was a market maker on the floor of the options exchange. I have sat on an upstairs trading desk, I have consulted at a retail brokerage execution desk. I have never seen anyone take the time to bust a trade over a $66 error.

I have seen some big errors around me in my day. When I was a clerk I had to relieve someone else who shorted 100,000 shares of AT&T when the order was for 10,000. She took out the whole national bid. This was in 1991 when 100,000 shares was a serious trade, 10,000 was a big trade back then. Luckily the options market maker on the floor was so busy he was able to absorb it and hedge most of it in the pit.

I just can't believe they are taking the time to break the trade over $66.

[Santo]

It likely wasn't initiated by them, someone must have ponied up the $200 fee, asked them to investigate. They're then compelled to do so, look at their set of rules, there's little doubt the margin is over 20% from JC's post above... so they have to come down on the side of the complainant and cancel the trades..

(20% of 55 is 11, 55-11 = 44, fair market was 40/35?)

I believe the MM thus gets his $200 fee back and the trades are cancelled.

It's also possible that the MM put in an order even worse, and just took yours out on the way as part of a bigger order that needed cancelling.

[hanco21]

I hear what you guys are saying and it looks like I don't have a case. What sucks is that I would of never bought the shares at 40 if whoever didn't match my existing offer at 55.


I have been with tradesports for 5 years and have never seen them do this. I have seen them cancel the whole contract when the market price is in question. I was so upset with tradesports I yanked all my funds out of my account. I have probably traded maybe a million shares in those 5 years. To be honest I am not sure if I can play there again with confidence because when I buy I usually buy in hundreds and I will not let them stick me with contracts like that again. I know they have rules but I think what they pulled today was busch. They made the mistake not me and I get punished for it.

[custer]

Santo, I'm pretty sure the mm does NOT get his $200 back. The fee insures that TS gets paid for their investigative work and that traders don't overuse the rule (anyone can use it, not just mm's).

[LGBoots]

Rogue behaviour.

Exchanges should not be able to cancel bets once they are struck. Tradesports markets are obviously seeded & they made an error & instead of doing the decent thing they resorted to deceit

A Betfair punter made a horrendous error in-running on a world cup match a few days ago which cost him I think £9k. Forum was full of gleeful punters who had got a piece of the 'Action' off this poor guy The bets stood & were paid out.

[Fair Value]

I saw this thread this morning and wanted to reply.

Hanco21, I was the MMer who had the trades unwound. I bought a total of 600 contracts between 55 and 62. I noticed th error right away and informed TS. The exchange unwound those trades as they were unrepresented prices. The Runline should never trade premiun to the Moneyline. All trades were cancelled immediately before the game even started. I apologize for loss but the price wasn't fair.

JC, the example you gave about the stock options trade was related to quantity and not price so it isn't relevant.

[hanco21]

I know I talked to customer service immediately when I found out they cancelled the bet. I tried to email them 3x times to discuss the matter further and I still have not recieved a email and its been almost 15-17 hours. Their policy when you email help@tradesports.com is one hour.

I really believed they would cancel both sides of the wager when the event was going on so I did npt know what to do, sell it off, etc. They have on numerous occasions voided the whole contracts under these same conditions,

I know I only lost $150 dollars which is not a big deal. The main issue is trust. I have been a 5+ plus year customer trading over a million plus shares. I mean they don't even have the decency to return my emails. They were so stuck on the decision when I called CS on the phone. Like I mentioned before I yanked out every penny out of my account because I believe this is ticky tack move regardless of the fine print.

[hanco21]

I saw this thread this morning and wanted to reply.

Hanco21, I was the MMer who had the trades unwound. I bought a total of 600 contracts between 55 and 62. I noticed th error right away and informed TS. The exchange unwound those trades as they were unrepresented prices. The Runline should never trade premiun to the Moneyline. All trades were cancelled immediately before the game even started. I apologize for loss but the price wasn't fair.

JC, the example you gave about the stock options trade was related to quantity and not price so it isn't relevant.

Try at the first pitch when the trades were unwound. I have no idea why you would buy at 63. I put out an order for 55 and you matched it. They should of cancelled the whole contract if their was a problem not just your orders, They have on several occasions voided contracts as mentioned before.

[acw]

The main issue is trust.

Never trust the Irish!

[hanco21]

I assume they'd calculate it as (55-41)/41 ≈ 34%.

I finally got an email from them after 24 hours when the game started. 20% is considered 20 ticks (1-100). Considering that 55-41 is only 14 ticks (14%) so my shares shouldn't of been unwound.


Fair value price....ABC had after steam had +170 Marlins -1.5 (which is roughly 37)

but most books had Marlins -1.5 at +160 (38) so I am definitely under there 20% guideline.

[Dark Horse]

Nice of Fair Value to come forward. As to Tradesports, it would be extremely rare for them to admit a mistake. Deeply ingrained 'we're always right, even when we're wrong' mentality.

[Santo]

I think he's saying they unwound the whole order.. anything above 57 would be void say, and if the spread was 55-62 then the majority should be cancelled..

I'm not sure whether it's impossible for them to do a partial rewind.

[hanco21]

I think he's saying they unwound the whole order.. anything above 57 would be void say, and if the spread was 55-62 then the majority should be cancelled..

I'm not sure whether it's impossible for them to do a partial rewind.

I realized they cancelled the whole order but I am not the one who should be punished. I traded within there guidelines and they should stick. Hopefully SBR will help me out in this matter. I wrote them yesterday at about this time so I am still waiting on their response.

[custer]

At Tradesports, you can make bets with a small edge but not a big one. That's the rule. They enforce it fairly. That's how they operate. I don't like the rule. I think all trades should stand. But then, it doesn't matter, because I'm not opening an exchange any time soon.

[Dark Horse]

There are plenty of hugely unfair trades happening at TS. I know, because I've benefitted from many.

[hanco21]

Nice of Fair Value to come forward. As to Tradesports, it would be extremely rare for them to admit a mistake. Deeply ingrained 'we're always right, even when we're wrong' mentality.

These guys are unbelievable. They are now saying the 20% is only a guideline. Rules are rules and it is in fine print.

Here is my last email with them


> Thank you for your response and I understand your
> frustration. However
> the Exchange is bound by the rules as published and
> contract Rule 1.2 is
> there to protect all members from such pricing
> errors.
> We do not unwind all trades in a contract if there
> has been a pricing
> error, only the trades done at an unfair price. I
> believe if you had all
> trades unwound in a baseball game in the past it was
> more than likely
> due to a starting pitcher change than a price error.
>
> The latter trade you did at 41 cannot be considered
> FV. However it was
> not with the 'bust range' and therefore that side of
> the trade stood.
>
> I understand you point regarding not knowing whether
> a trade will hold
> or not and all I can say to that is that no member
> should expect to
> profit from a large and obvious pricing error. We
> are not talking about
> 2 or 5 ticks out on a 5 or 10 lot here. The Exchange
> will bust obviously
> erroneous larger trades. If you trade on a price
> that is obviously an
> error, do not expect that trade to stand. All other
> trades should stand
> excepting for contract specific rules regarding 'no
> action' and scratches.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Sinead Kelliher
> Exchange Manager

[increasedodds]

I do not like the time it takes to use exchanges.

Now I have an even better reason not to use them...

[JoshW]

Tradesports Response:

Dear Josh,

Thank you for your mail.

You are correct in saying we do not discuss individual member accounts
for security and privacy reasons with any person other than the member
him/herself.

In response to the suggestion that we have not replied to a member who
has sent 3 mails in the last 10 days, this is not correct according to
our records.

We have a detailed records of every mail to and from all our members and
for the specific member in question we have exchanged several mails. As
of July 18^th at 8.48 a.m. Dublin time we have absolutely no record of 3
unanswered emails as suggested.

We have mailed the member today to establish if we can offer any more
clarification on the rule in question or the events being discussed.

In reply to your statement that the “/thread seems to establish that
their is “no clear line were bets will be upheld and canceled/” we would
like to make the following comments.

For the purposes of the “/Material Unrepresentative Price Trading/”
rule, all trades or “bets” that are matched at representative prices
stand. However, /“Material Unrepresentative Price”/ trades may be
unwound in compliance with the rule. Our rule clearly states, “/it is
not possible to comprehensively define an unrepresentative price/”. In
the interests of disclosure we do say, “/purely for guidance purposes
only the Exchange may consider a price that is 20% or greater away from
what the Exchange considers to be fair value on a 0-100 contract to be
unrepresentative price./”

Thank you for the opportunity to reply to this matter. Feel free to post
this reply in your forum

Kind Regards,

Sinead Kelliher
Exchange Manager

[Dark Horse]

While you're checking on Tradesports, you may want to look at their North Korean missiles contract.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTNmOGNkYmU4MjBjYjI2M2ViZTY0Nzg1ZDk2ZDlhMmE

I don't think anybody understands why TS hasn't already expired these contracts at 100, except, of course, TS...

[hanco21]

Tradesports Response:

Dear Josh,

Thank you for your mail.

You are correct in saying we do not discuss individual member accounts
for security and privacy reasons with any person other than the member
him/herself.

In response to the suggestion that we have not replied to a member who
has sent 3 mails in the last 10 days, this is not correct according to
our records.

We have a detailed records of every mail to and from all our members and
for the specific member in question we have exchanged several mails. As
of July 18^th at 8.48 a.m. Dublin time we have absolutely no record of 3
unanswered emails as suggested.

We have mailed the member today to establish if we can offer any more
clarification on the rule in question or the events being discussed.

In reply to your statement that the “/thread seems to establish that
their is “no clear line were bets will be upheld and canceled/” we would
like to make the following comments.

For the purposes of the “/Material Unrepresentative Price Trading/”
rule, all trades or “bets” that are matched at representative prices
stand. However, /“Material Unrepresentative Price”/ trades may be
unwound in compliance with the rule. Our rule clearly states, “/it is
not possible to comprehensively define an unrepresentative price/”. In
the interests of disclosure we do say, “/purely for guidance purposes
only the Exchange may consider a price that is 20% or greater away from
what the Exchange considers to be fair value on a 0-100 contract to be
unrepresentative price./”

Thank you for the opportunity to reply to this matter. Feel free to post
this reply in your forum

Kind Regards,

Sinead Kelliher
Exchange Manager

Well, I have to say that is a flat out lie. I sent 3 messages from 6th to 10th asking for the exact clarification of the rule. I never got an email and as of this morning I still haven't gotten a response. When I called and asked for a manager there never seemed to be one in. I specifically asked to Sinead and she was always out to the next day. Like I said I tried the email approach and that didn't work so I thought I would let sportsbookreview take care of it.

[hanco21]

Just checked my email. Like I thought Tradesports is full of crap because I still don't have an email. Flat out liars.