I'm starting to believe Mario Williams was the better draft choice of the three. In your opinion who is the bigger bust, Vince Young or Reggie Bush? I would say Bush considering all the hype he recieved when leaving USC.
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26Reggie Bush0%22Vince Young0%4 -
Mario Williams is the better choice of the three, but it has nothing to do with their results so far. Fact is, a defensive stud like him is going to be involved in a lot more plays than Reggie Bush, and while Vince Young is involved in every play quarterbacks that fit his bill have not really been overly successful. The Texans badly needed somebody like Mario Williams, and it was a great choice for them.Comment -
Eli ManningComment -
Bush could be a bust.
Young? Are you kidding? Played way beyond expectations last season, and continued this year until a hamstring injury.Comment -
Illusion,
You are smarter then this. . . Give these young kids a chance, they are both going to be studs in this league. . .
First of all, Reggie Bush is not and never going to be a number 1 RB in this league, just like he wasn't one in college. The injury to Deuce McCallister is really hurting him, also that O-Line is not good at all. Even in college he had LenDale White to play off of. He will be fine.
Secondly, Vince Young has a very good winning percentage with not too much help. Thier Defense has a good rank but they are better on paper then they truly are. Also His WR's are Below average, and can't catch worth 2 sh*ts. He does have a good running game however, which he contributes too, by extending plays and moving the chains with his feet. This guy is a winner and can lead his team down the field late in the game. His mechanic's aren't very good , but he is never going to lead this league in passing or even come close for that matter. But he will find success give these guys time. All this talk about VY regressing is ridic, He will also be fine.
Both of these players will be this league for the next decade and i predict 3-4 Pro Bowls for BUSH, and 1-2 For VY. . .Comment -
I think it's the other way around. Tennessee has a good winning percentage without much help from Vince Young.Comment -
Well, if you look at it, Bush had a great year last year, the reason why people are doubting him right now cause the Saints are not using him the right way, hes only 23 give him a few more years, let him develop first and we will see what happens, Vince young was a winner last year, I don't know what happened, maybe he need some play makers around him...Last edited by djeffectz; 12-10-07, 09:00 PM.Comment -
Ya, I wouldnt call either one of them a bust yet. Vince led his team last year, and Bush still makes plays. He is not as he was projected, but he still is still actin like a WR with RB skills.Comment -
I say matt leinart is the bustComment -
No, My point is he is not your 25-30 carry a game type of RB who will carry the load. He is so much more then that making him valuable at the 2 pick . He needs to run the ball 8-12 times a game and catch the ball 8-12 times a game. With that being said he is not a Number 1 guy because he needs to be combined with a short yardage guy who can carry the workload, (i.e. Duece McCallister). He should never lead his team in carriesComment -
Calling Vince a bust by any stretch has to put you into the category of 'someone that doesn't watch football'. His W/L record alone, for his age, is impressive.
He has nothing at wide-out either to throw to.
Nothing.
Reggie Bush might not live up to his hype - he'd have to rush for 2k yards and catch 1k yards AND return 10 TDs off punts to live up to that hype.
He's a nice player, and a rare commodity with his speed in the NFL. Top 2 pick? I don't know right now... But he's still a damn fine player if used correctly and has shown he can be a playmaker... His supporting cast isn't exactly great, either.
Both players would be Pro Bowlers NP every year with stronger rosters. But bust?
Sheesh.Comment -
It's not Bush or Young yet.
I don't honestly believe you can call either one of them a bust yet,but one more year like this,and you can write bust all over them.
REGGIE BUSH:Reggie is not a every down back,I dont care how hard Payton tries to make him one,he's only gonna play part time a 3rd down back at best.He's too small to run up the middle 25 times a game,and you can't throw it to him every time,so the only way he is gonna make a sudden impact is run a punt or a kick back.Which if he is gonna stay in the league he better get over his self and start running.
VINCE YOUNG:Vince's problem is very simple;You are not Dan Marino,get out of the damn pocket,use your legs,make some plays.When he was at Texas their best play was drop back for a pass,and then run it.Hell thats how thwy won the nat.championship.Throw it if their open,run it if they aint.
IT'S THAT SIMPLE
CCC YAComment -
Put Reggie Bush in the right situation and he could flourish. Throw him screen passes and short passes. If you are going to have him run, then do sweeps or delays and thats it!!!
No running in between tackles thats not going to work with him especially with the offensive line he's with..Comment -
Since Bush had higher expectations, I said him, but Vince sucks too.Comment -
at this point, id have to say bush if i had to pick one. but im not ready to call either of them busts yet. i think this post is about 3 years premature. they have both had some success to this point in their career and have helped their teams. they are both having some growing pains but young led a titan team from pathetic to decent last season and has them in the playoff race this year. he needs to work on his pocket passing obviously but i think it will come
bush was explosive last year for the saints. he caught a ton of passes out of the backfield and came up with some huge plays for them to help them get to the NFC championship game. he has dropped off a bit this year but that is mostly due to the injury to mcallister. bush is best suited as a slot back that can be moved around, from wide receiver to slot receiver to running back, etc. both of them have potential to be great players and in a few year i believe they will beComment -
It is a pretty raw deal for the Saints that their #2 pick and millions of dollars were wasted on this guy. I don't care how premature this comment is, the fact is with all that's been invested in this guy you're having to cope with the realization he can only contribute by way of screen passes, reverses, odd little sweeps? The guy's supposed to be a RB! They have to design plays specifically for him, this isn't daycare its professional sports and he isn't that good to begin with where plays need to be tailored to fit his little bill.Comment -
too early to tell, neither has been great so far...i feel better about bush's chances though since most good qbs start showing flashes of being able to throw the ball by the end of yr 2. then again, vince does have n.chow as his oc, he might be able to get him straightened out.Comment -
Trick question! haha. Neither can be said to be a bust, yet. Wait until they're washed out of the league and selling cars. Better term might be "slightly overvalued" at this point. If we redo a mock 2006 draft right now with current information, Bush & Young are still probably mid to late 1st rounders at worst. By no means are they absolute busts. Tim Couch (#1 overall, 1999)was an absolute bust because if we redid the 1999 draft right now with current information, Couch probably isn't a 1st day pick.
Bush is what he is. He isn't Walter Payton or Emmitt Smith. He's more like Marshall Faulk "lite". Everyone knew this before the draft, and nothing has changed. In the right system, he can be a stud. Unfortunately, New Orleans can't find the magic in 2007 that they had in 2006. The Saints were a blessed team in 2006, riding on a cloud, and have come back to earth in 2007. Depending on next year's luck & circumstances, we could be singing Bush's praises this time next year.Comment -
Neither player is a bust, both of them start each week they are healthy. You cant expect them to dominate games like they did in college. Dont understand how anyone can call either one a "bust".Comment -
Illusion, were you hitting up the sauce on your birthday?
Dude, there is absolutely no way you could call either of these guys a bust at this point. I agree with the sentiment that, at this point, Matt Leinart is the bust of that draft.
Look, Louisville Kid is right on this one:
Bush is NOT a 20-25 carry workhorse. He'll never wear down opponents so that he can bust off huge chunks of yardage in the 4th quarter. His value lies in his ability to stretch the defense out. He's difficult to account for when (and only when) there is another capable back that can run between the tackles. He'll be good, but it's going to be a transcendent sort of "good" in the sense that I don't think you're going to see a 1,500 yard season from him. What you'll get is a 900-1,200 yard rushing season with the possibility of 1,000 yards receiving on 80-90 receptions. I call that a damn good season. A "bust" from the RB position would be someone like Ki Jana Carter-- a can't miss guy who missed (albeit, the "miss" was due to injuries primarily).
Give it time to play out for the love of god:
Here are "busts" (1st round RB's that didn't and won't produce). Pay special attention to those 1995-1996 classes (OUCH!). Draft slot in ():
2002: William Green (16)
2001: Michael Bennett (27)
2000: Ron Dayne (11), Trung Canidate (31)
1998: Curtis Enis (4), Robert Edwards (19), John Avery (29)
1996: Lawrence Phillips (6) Tim Biakabutuka (8)--How's that for a pair of complete duds, both of whom went before Eddie George
1995: Ki-Jana Carter (1), Ty Wheatley (17), Nap Kaufman (18), James Stewart (19), Rashaan Salaam (21)-- all picked 2 rounds before Curtis Martin and 5 rounds before Terrell Davis
1994: Greg Hill (25)
1992: Tony Smith (19) Vaughn Dunbar (25)
You get the picture but if you need further evidence:
Look back at the names from 1998 and before and look at the illustrious names that pop out at you (Tim Worley, anyone? 1989, 7th pick)
As for QB's:
2005: Alex Smith (1)--I'll give him another year or two, but at this moment, he has to be the most collosal bust in the past several years (Oh, and for you Vince haters, Alex Smith got a 40 on his Wunderlic, compared to VY's 15, he's also had slightly better receivers to throw to and plays in a significantly easier conference. He still sucks. He went #1 overall, people. He had his head on straight. No vices. White kid with good genes and a strong arm. Only one thing: HE LACKS FOOTBALL IQ AND INSTINCT (but ya' know, he's white and says "shucks" so let's forgive him for onfield idiocy). Arnaz Battle would be the #1 WR for the Titans for f*ck's sake and Vernon Davis would be a godsend for a QB that likes to dump off to his TE like Vince does.
Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell were also 1st round picks in 2005 and neither of them have achieved the level of success VY has at this stage.
2004: Eli Manning (1), Phillip Rivers (4), J.P. Losman (22)--again, there is potential for all three of these guys... Ok, two of these guys, (Sorry J.P.). Eli has had one of the most talented receiving corps around (Plaxico, Toomer, Shockey, Tiki out of the backfield) and yet, he makes worse decisions than VY, doesn't play with as much passion as VY, and scares the sh!t out of you during the 4th quarter (if you've wagered on him). Rivers has regressed, despite having the best RB and TE in the league and a good receiving corps of Chambers, Vince Jackson, Buster Davis, Malcolm Floyd (again, I think any of these guys could challenge for the #1 WR spot in Tennessee (currently held by either Justin Gage, Roydell Williams, Brandon Jones---all of whom couldn't catch crabs from a $10 Tijuana whore). I'll give Rivers a mulligan, simply due to the Norv Turner syndrome...
2003: Byron Leftwich (7)--can't even start for the Falcons, KILLED the Jags for a few years
Kyle Boller (19)--just got benched for Troy Smith and had
Madden saying "He's not the future at QB for the Ravens" over and over again this past Sunday night.
Rex Grossman (22)-- inspired enough confidence in CHI coaches that they drafted Kyle Orton in the 4th round 2 years later, then signed Brian Griese. Suffice to say, he's no miracle worker.
2002: (The "Golden Year" for 1st round NFL QB's)--
David Carr (1)-- On his way out of the league at this point. When Matt Moore and Vinny Testaverde are ahead of you on the depth chart, you're in trouble. Again, if david carr were black, you guys would be having a conniption regarding his woes.
Joe Harrington (3)-- I don't know where to begin, but Joey at 3 or VY at 3 and I'm taking VY every single time)
Patrick Ramsey (32)-- Has anyone sent out a missing person's report for him? I'm worried. Is he now the 3rd or 4th string QB for the Jets (or is it Broncos)? Regardless, he's a bona fide dud.
2001: Mike Vick (1)--No need to explain here. someone do a comprehensive glance at Vick and tell me how many 4th quarter comebacks he engineered over the 5-6 seasons he played. My guess is that Vinnie Young had more last season than Vick did his entire career.
2000: Chad Pennington (18)-selected 5 rounds before Brady and Bulger (and we wonder why the Jets are so bad right now). Also important to note, that this may be the only first round QB that I could throw a football farther than.
1999: (The "Silver Year" for NFL 1st round picks; only saved by the presence of McNabb and Culpepper--- and yes, both of those guys, once upon a time were VERY productive in the NFL)
Tim Couch (1)--Maybe even worse than Carr at #1 overall
Akili Smith (3)--WOW!
Cade McNown (12)--Should change the "N" to a "C" and he'd be a McCown (though both of those guys are better than Cade)
1998: Ryan Leaf (2)---I smell a rotting corpse.
1997: Jim Drunkenmiller (26)--World Beater--laid the foundation for future SF QB Busts
1996 was a travesty for QB's in general. I can't even look at the page without feeling a burning sensation in my eyes
1995: Kerry Collins (5)---At least he'd be a good drinking partner
1994: Heath Shuler (3)---Ummm...
Trent Dilfer (6)---At least he won a SB
1993: Rick Mirer (2)---Remember how he was supposed to be good? Yeah, me neither.
1992: David Kligler (6)--Who'd have thought that inflated numbers from a system QB would translate so poorly into an NFL QB? But wasn't there a precedent??? Let me think about this.
1991: (The "Bronze Year" for 1st round QB's)
Dan McGwire (16)--Brilliant!
Todd Marinovich (24)--Even More Brilliant!!!
(Note: Brett Favre went 33rd that year)
1990: Andre Ware (7)---Oh yeah, THE PRECEDENT (see Klingler, David 1992)
If you want the full QB breakdown:
Both Bush and Young are still good prospects, starting for their respective teams, capable of winning games, with the only downfall being that the hype machine (which normally only goes up to 10) was turned up to 17 following the magical 2005-06 NCAAF season...
Give 'em a break for now.Comment -
Bush is decent as a WR, and will be a WR in a few years... Vince Young is not good at all, and is very overrated.. had to take Young on that he wont be able to move to another position and be good, like Bush will do in a few years, and Young has won some awards that he had no business winning (Rookie of the Year, Pro Bowl).. the awards put it over the top for me to take YoungComment -
baba,
Thanks for the info, Robert Edwards was an absolute stud. I believe he rushed for about 1200 yds his rookie season, and went to the pro bowl. He basically had a career ending injury playing football on the sand in hawaii, in some kinda of pre - pro bowl event. He had a ton of potentialComment -
And please tell me who should have won ROY last year? Geez, you f&ckin people are nuts. I hate Bush but think he'll be good enough to warrant his draft position. I love VY (as a Horns alum) but think he'll be good enough to warrant his draft position. Neither will live up to the hype, because, quite simply, with the state of sports journalism right now, everyone is too hyped. There are people that say Lebron was/is overrated. I mean, the guy is 22 years old and nearly averaging a triple double. He's not going to be the next MJ. Bush isn't going to be the next Barry. VY isn't going to be the next Montana. Get used to being let down if your expectations are set so high.Comment -
babaoriley, Excellent writeup!
I want to quickly defend my man Aaron Rodgers. He looked sharp a couple weeks ago against Dallas when he got in the game. He looked better than Favre was looking before Favre went out with the injury. I know that Rodgers subsequently pulled a hamstring or whatever in practice a week later, but whatever. Rodgers was a late 1st rounder anyway, so it's not like the Packers wasted a #1 overall on him. Seriously, if Rodgers can hold Favre's jock for another year or two, I think he might emerge as another Romo. I think there's a lot to be said for how Romo sat behind guys like Testeverde & Bledsoe before being thrown into the fire. I see a new trend that will emerge in the NFL going forward. More effort will be made to groom QBs over the period of several years. This is how it was done in the old days. Romo has proven that it can be done in the modern era. Then again, some may argue that Romo should have been playing all along if he is so great.Comment -
Jason Campbell is going to be a solid QB in this league, as long as he keeps playing in the type of offense that is very run oriented ( i.e Auburn with Cadilac Williams and Ronnie Brown, and now Washington with Clinton Portis and LaDell Betts). However i would not jump the gun on Rodgers yet. He has played alot of scrap minutes. However he is definetly benefiting from practicing with one of the best ever in Farve everyday. Personally i wasn't too high on this kid in college , but we will see.Comment -
babaoriley, I was just trying to stir the kettle with this question. It certainly has gotten some great responses including yours.
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Illusion, just making sure that if you, ya know, just happened to get absinthe sent to you for your birthday, well, you can hook a brother up:
Seriously though, good topic. I just think neither is a bust (yet), Bush could be a poor man's Marshall Faulk and VY could be a poor man's Kordell Stewart. BUT, Bush could be the next Faulk and VY could be the next Cunningham (or better).
Just sayin' that we should refrain from labeling these two until they have progressed a little more.Comment -
Agreed. It is also no surprise he pulled a hammy, back ups generally (especially Favre's of all people) get very little if any reps in practice. There's no way Rodgers properly stretched and stuff before this game, anyone would have pulled something running like that.Comment -
Bush so far.Comment -
Gawd. I'd finally vanished Kordell from my memory. Thanks a lot. lmaoVY could be a poor man's Kordell Stewart.
I looked Kordell up on Wiki to try to examine exactly what his history was anyway. Ends up, he never really was a pedigreed draft pick, grabbed at #60 overall. He probably wouldn't have been forced into the starters role if the Steelers could find ANYONE else that could take ownership of the job: Jim Miller, Mike Tomzack, Kent Graham, and finally Tommy Maddox. Then Kordell went to Chicago to eventually lose his job to the rookie Rex Grossman. He then backed up Boller in Baltimore. What amazed me the most is that Kordell actually went to the Pro Bowl in 2001! He also took the Steelers to the AFC championship game in both 1997 and 2001. I never thought much of Stewart as a QB, but he did have a few good years, apparently. Maybe this is what Vince will end up being!Comment
