Has anyone ever won a title with as shitty a team as LeBron has?

**kobefanatic** · 05-12-10, 10:25 AM

i think lebron like jamison because he is the type of stretch forward

**WiseGrumpy** · 05-12-10, 10:36 AM

I must disagree with the statments that the Cavs started wouldn't start in any of the big teams.
I mean guys seriously, you think the Cavs had the best record again just because of LeBron?!
When they play like they can, the Cavs started are amazing players and the team has one of the best benches ever in my opinion. But as I said before ever since LeBron started resting, the team has played bad, tomorrow it must change, it simply must or the Cavs are done for the next 100 years!!!

**big0mar** · 05-12-10, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by lakerboy

So If the Cavs win its cause of Lebron but when they lose the supporting cast is the issue? Did you guys not see that LEbron hasnt shown up in 3 of 5 games in this series. The cavs are the only team in NBA history to have that reg season winning pct and lose by 32 points at home in the playoffs. They got blown out 2 times in a row at home. This series should be over by now cause boston let game 1 slip. Its time for folks to start laying the blame on Lebron when his team loses. The guy has too many folks sticking up for him.

LB, can you answer the question posed in the title of the thread?

Has a championship team ever had such a poor surrounding cast and coach around one player?

**big0mar** · 05-12-10, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by kobefanatic

i think lebron like jamison because he is the type of stretch forward

Hes a forward that can shoot. His defense is terrible, especially in transition. He shouldn't be on the floor.

What the Cavs are really missing right now is a perimeter defender aside from LeBron. As bad as their offense was last night, their defense was much more disappointing.

**big0mar** · 05-12-10, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by WiseGrumpy

I must disagree with the statments that the Cavs started wouldn't start in any of the big teams. I mean guys seriously, you think the Cavs had the best record again just because of LeBron?! When they play like they can, the Cavs started are amazing players and the team has one of the best benches ever in my opinion. But as I said before ever since LeBron started resting, the team has played bad, tomorrow it must change, it simply must or the Cavs are done for the next 100 years!!!

Which Cavs players would start on the Lakers? Celtics? Over whom?

**kobefanatic** · 05-12-10, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by big0mar

Hes a forward that can shoot. His defense is terrible, especially in transition. He shouldn't be on the floor.

What the Cavs are really missing right now is a perimeter defender aside from LeBron. As bad as their offense was last night, their defense was much more disappointing.

that's why they signed parker and moon, those 2 are perimeter defenders

**Goat Milk** · 05-12-10, 10:59 AM

- A.I. took the worst playoff team in NBA history to the finals...
- The Cavs are the deepest/2nd deepest team in the league (Mavs).
- D Wade won a title with shitons around him. Jason Williams, James Posey, washed up Alonzo Morning and Gary Payton, and Shaq having a decent season. The guy won 4 straight games after being down 0-2 and averaged like 36 6 6 in the last 4 games. Best finals performance I've ever seen.

**HustleGetPaid** · 05-12-10, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by lakerboy

So If the Cavs win its cause of Lebron but when they lose the supporting cast is the issue? Did you guys not see that LEbron hasnt shown up in 3 of 5 games in this series. The cavs are the only team in NBA history to have that reg season winning pct and lose by 32 points at home in the playoffs. They got blown out 2 times in a row at home. This series should be over by now cause boston let game 1 slip. Its time for folks to start laying the blame on Lebron when his team loses. The guy has too many folks sticking up for him.

Agree Lebron is a big blame and should be, he's the leader and star of the team. But Mike Brown and the lack of anyone stepping up is also part of the problem. LeBron has to be frustrated with having little to no help in these big games.

**kobefanatic** · 05-12-10, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Goat Milk

- A.I. took the worst playoff team in NBA history to the finals...
- The Cavs are the deepest/2nd deepest team in the league (Mavs).
- D Wade won a title with shitons around him. Jason Williams, James Posey, washed up Alonzo Morning and Gary Payton, and Shaq having a decent season. The guy won 4 straight games after being down 0-2 and averaged like 36 6 6 in the last 4 games. Best finals performance I've ever seen.

throw in brick shooter antoine walker, this guy is terrible

**lakerboy** · 05-12-10, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by big0mar

LB, can you answer the question posed in the title of the thread?

Has a championship team ever had such a poor surrounding cast and coach around one player?

The 2004 pistons had this starting roster

Billups/Hamilton/Prince/B Wallace/R Wallace- this cavs team has better starters

1977-78 Washington Bullets Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WSB/1978.html

Checkout the latest Washington Bullets Roster and Stats for 1977-78 on Basketball-Reference.com

Go and take a look at that bullets championship roster where only 1 player shot better than 50% in the playoffs . That roster is horrible.

Bottomline is that Lebron always wins- whether he loses or not. If they win this series its cause he is the greatest if they lose its cause he has no one. This cavs team isnt shit- it has no leader. This roster is loaded with talent.

**t-wizzle** · 05-12-10, 11:45 AM

Maybe Lebron just doesn't care about this series... He wants to be a free agent verrryyyyy badly.

As for this thread, I didn't bother to read through all the posts but come on man. Stop with all the "Lebron has no supporting cast" b.s. He hasn't come to play and it's as simple as that.

**soxwin** · 05-12-10, 11:56 AM

Kobe is a rapist who is lucky he never did jail time. He benefits from having a HOF coach whose offensive system is legendary. Kobe is a great player who quits on his team whenever the media gets on him. definately worth idolizing

Lebron is just immature and he is more worried about his marketing ability rather than winning championships. sooner or later he will get it and then he will get his ring(s).

Neither KOBE nor Lebron could win w/out a 2nd star. That goes for anybody in this league. Magic, Larry, Michael, etc.. they all had other stars to lean on as well as great coaches.

**t-wizzle** · 05-12-10, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by soxwin

Kobe is a rapist who is lucky he never did jail time. He benefits from having a HOF coach whose offensive system is legendary. Kobe is a great player who quits on his team whenever the media gets on him. definately worth idolizing

Lebron is just immature and he is more worried about his marketing ability rather than winning championships. sooner or later he will get it and then he will get his ring(s).

Neither KOBE nor Lebron could win w/out a 2nd star. That goes for anybody in this league. Magic, Larry, Michael, etc.. they all had other stars to lean on as well as great coaches.

Kobe is a true competitor. He loves the big moments and thrives in them.

And stop with this "star" nonsense. The Lakers win because they have the right pieces in the right system. Pau Gasol isn't a "star", he's a nice power forward who fits that triangle offense very well.

I agree with you that Lebron is more worried about his marketability... he said himself that he wants to become the richest person in the world. Give Lebron the money and Kobe will gladly take the rings.

**big0mar** · 05-12-10, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by lakerboy

The 2004 pistons had this starting roster Billups/Hamilton/Prince/B Wallace/R Wallace- this cavs team has better starters http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WSB/1978.html Go and take a look at that bullets championship roster where only 1 player shot better than 50% in the playoffs . That roster is horrible. Bottomline is that Lebron always wins- whether he loses or not. If they win this series its cause he is the greatest if they lose its cause he has no one. This cavs team isnt shit- it has no leader. This roster is loaded with talent.

I don't see anyone from CLE other than Lebron starting on that Pistons team.

LeBron always wins, yes. Because he is a great player. Just like Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, etc.

It is a team game after all.

**Goat Milk** · 05-12-10, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by big0mar

I don't see anyone from CLE other than Lebron starting on that Pistons team.
LeBron always wins, yes. Because he is a great player. Just like Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, etc.
It is a team game after all.

Lebron hasn't won anything yet except for two MVPs. And T wizzle- Gasol is an all star. He was a top 3 center before he even came to the Lakers. He's the most skilled big man in the game today. Probably 1 of the best passing big men ever.

**HustleGetPaid** · 05-12-10, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by t-wizzle

Kobe is a true competitor. He loves the big moments and thrives in them.

And stop with this "star" nonsense. The Lakers win because they have the right pieces in the right system. Pau Gasol isn't a "star", he's a nice power forward who fits that triangle offense very well.

I agree with you that Lebron is more worried about his marketability... he said himself that he wants to become the richest person in the world. Give Lebron the money and Kobe will gladly take the rings.

Gasol isn't a star, you kidding right? Name one player better than Gasol on the Cavs roster besides LeBron, no one! Shit Odom would probably be the 2nd best player on the Cavs team and he comes off the bench for the Lake show!

**big0mar** · 05-12-10, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Goat Milk

Lebron hasn't won anything yet except for two MVPs. And T wizzle- Gasol is an all star. He was a top 3 center before he even came to the Lakers. He's the most skilled big man in the game today. Probably 1 of the best passing big men ever.

And LeBron probably wont win any team accolades until he actually has a team thats good enough.

That doesn't change him as a player though.

**jasont** · 05-12-10, 02:53 PM

This cavs team isn't going to win anything- they don't have a true point. And for anyone to think Kobe is better than Lebron at this stage of their careers- that's just laughable.

**nbarlotta3** · 05-12-10, 03:26 PM

He has Shaq, Mo Williams, and Antawn Jamison. I don't know how they still can't win.

**kobefanatic** · 05-12-10, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by soxwin

Kobe is a rapist who is lucky he never did jail time. He benefits from having a HOF coach whose offensive system is legendary. Kobe is a great player who quits on his team whenever the media gets on him. definately worth idolizing

Lebron is just immature and he is more worried about his marketing ability rather than winning championships. sooner or later he will get it and then he will get his ring(s).

Neither KOBE nor Lebron could win w/out a 2nd star. That goes for anybody in this league. Magic, Larry, Michael, etc.. they all had other stars to lean on as well as great coaches.

don't bring the rapist thing all the time, it has nothing to do with basketball

**t-wizzle** · 05-12-10, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Goat Milk

Lebron hasn't won anything yet except for two MVPs. And T wizzle- Gasol is an all star. He was a top 3 center before he even came to the Lakers. He's the most skilled big man in the game today. Probably 1 of the best passing big men ever.

Originally posted by HustleGetPaid

Gasol isn't a star, you kidding right? Name one player better than Gasol on the Cavs roster besides LeBron, no one! Shit Odom would probably be the 2nd best player on the Cavs team and he comes off the bench for the Lake show!

1 of the best passing big men ever?

Apparently the nba has only been around for 10 years.

All I'm saying is that he's not a "star" and that this whole argument that every great player needs another star is absolute nonsense. Gasol is, as i already said, a talented big man who fits that offense perfectly. Why else would I say that he fits the offense so well - because he is a good passer and has some good post moves.

**williams22** · 05-12-10, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by t-wizzle

1 of the best passing big men ever?

Apparently the nba has only been around for 10 years.

All I'm saying is that he's not a "star" and that this whole argument that every great player needs another star is absolute nonsense. Gasol is, as i already said, a talented big man who fits that offense perfectly. Why else would I say that he fits the offense so well - because he is a good passer and has some good post moves.

Gasol is the most skilled big man in the game right now. I would say the only one who can even compete for that title is Bosh.

**Goat Milk** · 05-12-10, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by t-wizzle

1 of the best passing big men ever?

Apparently the nba has only been around for 10 years.

T wiz- Gasol is one of the best passing big men ever. I've been watchin NBA for 20-25 years and watch film of everything I wasn't around for before then. You ever heard of Bill Walton? Bill Walton was a phenomenal passer for a C. 25 years later, Gasol is the next best passing big man (Hakeem could be argued)

**big0mar** · 05-12-10, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by t-wizzle

1 of the best passing big men ever?

Apparently the nba has only been around for 10 years. All I'm saying is that he's not a "star" and that this whole argument that every great player needs another star is absolute nonsense. Gasol is, as i already said, a talented big man who fits that offense perfectly. Why else would I say that he fits the offense so well - because he is a good passer and has some good post moves.

The guy is a top-10 player in the NBA right now.

**Mac4Lyfe** · 05-12-10, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by HustleGetPaid

Still baffles me why they didn't get Stoudemire either.

The Cav's would have won the title last year if they would have gotten Shaq before that trade deadline.

Then they had the opportunity of not only getting Stoudemire but the Sun's packaged him with Richardson as well. How in the hell didn't the Cav's take that deal?? All they wanted was Hickson, Wallace expiring and Szcerbiak's contract, I believe.

Everyone blames Mike Brown and I agree he's a horrible in game coach but he's an up and coming championship coach in this league. He's brought in guys who never played defense and have gotten them to buy in. Mike Brown has gotten blood out of a bunch of scrubs. Danny Ferry is the real blame as he hasn't brought in one other elite athlete. It took him forever to bring in a PG in Mo "No Show" Williams and that was a horrible pick. Mo is built for the regular season along with all these other shit players. The Cav's have zero talent. Ask anyone in the NBA.

Here's the shit test. Take Cleveland and match them with the other playoff teams and you were going to pick a squad to play in the park. You would take Lebron 1st but you would take 4 other Celtic players before the next Cav. You'd take 4 other Sun's players before the next Cav. You'd take 5 Magic players and 5 Lakers before the next Cav. How in the hell can anyone blame Mike Brown when he has to start Mo Williams and Anthony Parker in his frontcourt. Nobody can win with these guys starting.

Mike Brown has a bigger problem in that he has a dam diva in Lebron and has to cowtow to his every whim. Lebron is now throwing Brown under the bus with his shitty play all in an effort to get closer to Calipari, world wide Wes, etc. Lebron is a selfish player that doesn't want anyone else on his team to outshine him. Who has Lebron helped make look better in any playoffs? He makes all the guys around him shrink in crunch time with his bullshit, dribble, dribble, dribble, tick, tick, tick deep in the clock, jack up a BS shot. He want's to be the PG and hog the ball, then dish the ball late in the shot clock.

I'm a Cav's fan and I won't shed a tear when he leaves. It will take the team a few years to recover but we probably have a better chance of winning without him and all his BS. The organization has bent over for his ass and he's held them hostage. They already offered him max money and he didn't re-sign. That's bullshit. His lack of commitment hurt the Cav's from getting better free agents in the first place. Then he put up that shit last night then said that Cav fans are spoiled by his great play. Fuk him.

**kobefanatic** · 05-12-10, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Mac4Lyfe

The Cav's would have won the title last year if they would have gotten Shaq before that trade deadline.

Then they had the opportunity of not only getting Stoudemire but the Sun's packaged him with Richardson as well. How in the hell didn't the Cav's take that deal?? All they wanted was Hickson, Wallace expiring and Szcerbiak's contract, I believe.

Everyone blames Mike Brown and I agree he's a horrible in game coach but he's an up and coming championship coach in this league. He's brought in guys who never played defense and have gotten them to buy in. Mike Brown has gotten blood out of a bunch of scrubs. Danny Ferry is the real blame as he hasn't brought in one other elite athlete. It took him forever to bring in a PG in Mo "No Show" Williams and that was a horrible pick. Mo is built for the regular season along with all these other shit players. The Cav's have zero talent. Ask anyone in the NBA.

Here's the shit test. Take Cleveland and match them with the other playoff teams and you were going to pick a squad to play in the park. You would take Lebron 1st but you would take 4 other Celtic players before the next Cav. You'd take 4 other Sun's players before the next Cav. You'd take 5 Magic players and 5 Lakers before the next Cav. How in the hell can anyone blame Mike Brown when he has to start Mo Williams and Anthony Parker in his frontcourt. Nobody can win with these guys starting.

Mike Brown has a bigger problem in that he has a dam diva in Lebron and has to cowtow to his every whim. Lebron is now throwing Brown under the bus with his shitty play all in an effort to get closer to Calipari, world wide Wes, etc. Lebron is a selfish player that doesn't want anyone else on his team to outshine him. Who has Lebron helped make look better in any playoffs? He makes all the guys around him shrink in crunch time with his bullshit, dribble, dribble, dribble, tick, tick, tick deep in the clock, jack up a BS shot. He want's to be the PG and hog the ball, then dish the ball late in the shot clock.

I'm a Cav's fan and I won't shed a tear when he leaves. It will take the team a few years to recover but we probably have a better chance of winning without him and all his BS. The organization has bent over for his ass and he's held them hostage. They already offered him max money and he didn't re-sign. That's bullshit. His lack of commitment hurt the Cav's from getting better free agents in the first place. Then he put up that shit last night then said that Cav fans are spoiled by his great play. Fuk him.

thanks at least someone as a cavs fan is unbiased

**t-wizzle** · 05-12-10, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Goat Milk

T wiz- Gasol is one of the best passing big men ever. I've been watchin NBA for 20-25 years and watch film of everything I wasn't around for before then. You ever heard of Bill Walton? Bill Walton was a phenomenal passer for a C. 25 years later, Gasol is the next best passing big man (Hakeem could be argued)

Bill Walton is renown for being the best passing big man ever, everyone knows that. Wilt became an excellent passer after people started to complain that he shot too much. He improved his passing drastically just to prove people wrong. If we wanna go back just to recent history, Chris Webber was an excellent passer, Vlade Divac, Arvydas Sabonis, Olajuwan... We can rattle off names all we want, but to call Gasol one of the best passing big men of all time is a bit of an overreaction. I do agree however that he is arguably the best passing big man in the league right now.

**lakerboy** · 05-12-10, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Mac4Lyfe

The Cav's would have won the title last year if they would have gotten Shaq before that trade deadline.

Then they had the opportunity of not only getting Stoudemire but the Sun's packaged him with Richardson as well. How in the hell didn't the Cav's take that deal?? All they wanted was Hickson, Wallace expiring and Szcerbiak's contract, I believe.

Everyone blames Mike Brown and I agree he's a horrible in game coach but he's an up and coming championship coach in this league. He's brought in guys who never played defense and have gotten them to buy in. Mike Brown has gotten blood out of a bunch of scrubs. Danny Ferry is the real blame as he hasn't brought in one other elite athlete. It took him forever to bring in a PG in Mo "No Show" Williams and that was a horrible pick. Mo is built for the regular season along with all these other shit players. The Cav's have zero talent. Ask anyone in the NBA.

Here's the shit test. Take Cleveland and match them with the other playoff teams and you were going to pick a squad to play in the park. You would take Lebron 1st but you would take 4 other Celtic players before the next Cav. You'd take 4 other Sun's players before the next Cav. You'd take 5 Magic players and 5 Lakers before the next Cav. How in the hell can anyone blame Mike Brown when he has to start Mo Williams and Anthony Parker in his frontcourt. Nobody can win with these guys starting.

Mike Brown has a bigger problem in that he has a dam diva in Lebron and has to cowtow to his every whim. Lebron is now throwing Brown under the bus with his shitty play all in an effort to get closer to Calipari, world wide Wes, etc. Lebron is a selfish player that doesn't want anyone else on his team to outshine him. Who has Lebron helped make look better in any playoffs? He makes all the guys around him shrink in crunch time with his bullshit, dribble, dribble, dribble, tick, tick, tick deep in the clock, jack up a BS shot. He want's to be the PG and hog the ball, then dish the ball late in the shot clock.

I'm a Cav's fan and I won't shed a tear when he leaves. It will take the team a few years to recover but we probably have a better chance of winning without him and all his BS. The organization has bent over for his ass and he's held them hostage. They already offered him max money and he didn't re-sign. That's bullshit. His lack of commitment hurt the Cav's from getting better free agents in the first place. Then he put up that shit last night then said that Cav fans are spoiled by his great play. Fuk him.

- solid post Mac. you said it all- they cant win with him and they havent won without him.

**lyon804** · 05-12-10, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Mac4Lyfe

The Cav's would have won the title last year if they would have gotten Shaq before that trade deadline.

Then they had the opportunity of not only getting Stoudemire but the Sun's packaged him with Richardson as well. How in the hell didn't the Cav's take that deal?? All they wanted was Hickson, Wallace expiring and Szcerbiak's contract, I believe.

Everyone blames Mike Brown and I agree he's a horrible in game coach but he's an up and coming championship coach in this league. He's brought in guys who never played defense and have gotten them to buy in. Mike Brown has gotten blood out of a bunch of scrubs. Danny Ferry is the real blame as he hasn't brought in one other elite athlete. It took him forever to bring in a PG in Mo "No Show" Williams and that was a horrible pick. Mo is built for the regular season along with all these other shit players. The Cav's have zero talent. Ask anyone in the NBA.

Here's the shit test. Take Cleveland and match them with the other playoff teams and you were going to pick a squad to play in the park. You would take Lebron 1st but you would take 4 other Celtic players before the next Cav. You'd take 4 other Sun's players before the next Cav. You'd take 5 Magic players and 5 Lakers before the next Cav. How in the hell can anyone blame Mike Brown when he has to start Mo Williams and Anthony Parker in his frontcourt. Nobody can win with these guys starting.

Mike Brown has a bigger problem in that he has a dam diva in Lebron and has to cowtow to his every whim. Lebron is now throwing Brown under the bus with his shitty play all in an effort to get closer to Calipari, world wide Wes, etc. Lebron is a selfish player that doesn't want anyone else on his team to outshine him. Who has Lebron helped make look better in any playoffs? He makes all the guys around him shrink in crunch time with his bullshit, dribble, dribble, dribble, tick, tick, tick deep in the clock, jack up a BS shot. He want's to be the PG and hog the ball, then dish the ball late in the shot clock.

I'm a Cav's fan and I won't shed a tear when he leaves. It will take the team a few years to recover but we probably have a better chance of winning without him and all his BS. The organization has bent over for his ass and he's held them hostage. They already offered him max money and he didn't re-sign. That's bullshit. His lack of commitment hurt the Cav's from getting better free agents in the first place. Then he put up that shit last night then said that Cav fans are spoiled by his great play. Fuk him.

OK Mac...now tell me how you really feel about it........

**Dark Horse** · 05-13-10, 05:44 AM

The Cavs supporting cast is fine. Lebron is just not the kind of player who makes others better. Basketball is a team sport. What did he say after the win in Boston? 'I started it and the others fed off me' (paraphrasing). lol He doesn't think 'team' first, but thinks of the team as himself and the others. He still has a lot to learn, and if he doesn't he will never win a NBA championship. His blind spot is the kind of stuff he could have picked up in college.

**beanbag** · 05-13-10, 06:07 AM

i hope he gets out of cleveland

**jackpot269** · 05-13-10, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by Dark Horse

The Cavs supporting cast is fine. Lebron is just not the kind of player who makes others better. Basketball is a team sport. What did he say after the win in Boston? 'I started it and the others fed off me' (paraphrasing). lol He doesn't think 'team' first, but thinks of the team as himself and the others. He still has a lot to learn, and if he doesn't he will never win a NBA championship. His blind spot is the kind of stuff he could have picked up in college.

good point there is a lot to learn in all major sports after high school and before BEING a professional!! there is a difference in playing professionally and BEING a professional !!

**Goat Milk** · 05-13-10, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by t-wizzle

Bill Walton is renown for being the best passing big man ever, everyone knows that. Wilt became an excellent passer after people started to complain that he shot too much. He improved his passing drastically just to prove people wrong. If we wanna go back just to recent history, Chris Webber was an excellent passer, Vlade Divac, Arvydas Sabonis, Olajuwan... We can rattle off names all we want, but to call Gasol one of the best passing big men of all time is a bit of an overreaction. I do agree however that he is arguably the best passing big man in the league right now.

Oh yeah I forgot about C webb. No bro, don't even mention Sabonis or Divac- really, don't even mention these guys in the same sentence as Gasol. I don't think that Gasol is arguably the best passing big man in the league right now, he's the best passing big man in the league today by far and the best over the last 10 years 100%. Study film and if you play ball you'll see what I'm talking about.

**OmgUrMom** · 05-13-10, 02:12 PM

wat? this is the best supporting cast lebron has ever had and really is not that weak. I would be surprised if Jordan wouldn't have won it all with this team.

I think you guys are over rating the effect of coaches. Brown isn't a great coach but he is also not singlehandedly losing any games for them.