Top 5 Players of all time

[The Architect]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Lebron James will finish as 1 or 2.

[Goat Milk]

1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Bird

Lebron is getting close.

[The Architect]

what bothers me is that Kobe is going to pass MJ in points, maybe will get his 6th ring (i personally don't think so) but even with both of those, I cannot put him ahead of Jordan. ever. alot of people will though

[kenshin11x]

Lebrick will never be #1 or crack the top 3. His pathetic performance in the 4th quarters vs the Mavs will always taint his legacy to become #1. When it comes to the big stage, MJ was perfect. 6 Finals 6 Rings 6 MVPs. None went the distance. Lebum cannot beat that. Lebrick needed to join Dwayne wade and get Chris Bosh to get on board to win his first ring. It is a little like cheating, as MJ sticked with the Bulls thru thick and thin. He would never join his on court enemies for the sakes of getting a ring and lots of hall of famers look down on Lebum because of that (just look at Open Court when they discussed this matter)

To be the best of all time, you would assume that you give it your all every single goddamn game. To dedicate your life for the sport and to always improve on your craft. You must want the ball in the crucial moments of the game and relish in it.

Lebrick vanished in those 4th quarters. VANISHED. I have never seen such a thing from a super star. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant competitive drive and will to win is never questioned, Lebum was questioned. As it seemed that he froze or quit in the biggest stage.

[Goat Milk]

what bothers me is that Kobe is going to pass MJ in points, maybe will get his 6th ring (i personally don't think so) but even with both of those, I cannot put him ahead of Jordan. ever. alot of people will though

I mean...Bryant got robbed of 2 MVPs because of the rape trial. Everyone knows it bro. Those would be a huge addition to his resume right now.

[The Architect]

Lebrick will never be #1 or crack the top 3. His pathetic performance in the 4th quarters vs the Mavs will always taint his legacy to become #1. When it comes to the big stage, MJ was perfect. 6 Finals 6 Rings 6 MVPs. None went the distance. Lebum cannot beat that. Lebrick needed to join Dwayne wade and get Chris Bosh to get on board to win his first ring. It is a little like cheating, as MJ sticked with the Bulls thru thick and thin. He would never join his on court enemies for the sakes of getting a ring and lots of hall of famers look down on Lebum because of that (just look at Open Court when they discussed this matter)

To be the best of all time, you would assume that you give it your all every single goddamn game. To dedicate your life for the sport and to always improve on your craft. You must want the ball in the crucial moments of the game and relish in it.

Lebrick vanished in those 4th quarters. VANISHED. I have never seen such a thing from a super star. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant competitive drive and will to win is never questioned, Lebum was questioned. As it seemed that he froze or quit in the biggest stage.

I understand that he will lost in the finals twice. If you want to hold it against him that he made the finals with an unbelievable pathetic Cavs team (please look at that roster) and got swept by a dominant Spurs team in their prime..well thats your prerogative. I think it says more that he got there as a 23 year old with such a subpar supporting cast. As for his performance vs the Mavs, there are no excuses. However, he completely retooled his game following such a debacle and look what he did last playoffs?

Did you forget Kobe lost two finals also? To that improbable Pistons team, when the lakers were starting 4 HOFers? Or what about when Kobe lost to Boston?

[The Architect]

I mean...Bryant got robbed of 2 MVPs because of the rape trial. Everyone knows it bro. Those would be a huge addition to his resume right now.

Sure, but i'm not basing it off of awards because that is out of the player's control, like you said. Its about their performance on the court and the way that they play the game. Kobe never has and never will be as efficient a scorer as Jordan was. That's why I can't put him over MJ. they play almost identical styles of basketball, but Jordan was just slightly better at it.

[Goat Milk]

I understand that he will lost in the finals twice. If you want to hold it against him that he made the finals with an unbelievable pathetic Cavs team (please look at that roster) and got swept by a dominant Spurs team in their prime..well thats your prerogative. I think it says more that he got there as a 23 year old with such a subpar supporting cast. As for his performance vs the Mavs, there are no excuses. However, he completely retooled his game following such a debacle and look what he did last playoffs?

Did you forget Kobe lost two finals also? To that improbable Pistons team, when the lakers were starting 4 HOFers? Or what about when Kobe lost to Boston?

Boston was a great team with 3 guaranteed and perhaps 4 (rondo) hall of famers all in their primes on that team.... Bryant never melted down in a 4th quarter in the finals. Not once. Bryant has been an assassin since he was 22 years old. Lebron completely vanished against the Mavs. Wade was the best player on the floor followed by Dirk. Wade got no help and I feel sorry for him because that was clearly the last year of his prime in where he would of guaranteed a finals MVP.

[The Architect]

Boston was a great team with 3 guaranteed and perhaps 4 (rondo) hall of famers all in their primes on that team.... Bryant never melted down in a 4th quarter in the finals. Not once. Bryant has been an assassin since he was 22 years old. Lebron completely vanished against the Mavs. Wade was the best player on the floor followed by Dirk. Wade got no help and I feel sorry for him because that was clearly the last year of his prime in where he would of guaranteed a finals MVP.

Of course, Boston was great and so was that pistons team. Doesn't discount the fact that he still lost. Something Jordan never did regardless of who he was playing, including plenty of HoFers (Barkley, Payton, Stockton, Malone, Drexler, Magic, Kareem..) Jordan averaged over 30 ppg for 8 straight years - simply incredible

[Goat Milk]

Of course, Boston was great and so was that pistons team. Doesn't discount the fact that he still lost. Something Jordan never did regardless of who he was playing, including plenty of HoFers (Barkley, Payton, Stockton, Malone, Drexler, Magic, Kareem..) Jordan averaged over 30 ppg for 8 straight years - simply incredible

Jordan was better. But Jordan only got to see Magic Kareem and Bird in their primes for a couple years, if that. And who else was such a dominate force during that day? The guys you mentioned were all great, but if you look at the guards/sfs Kobe has to play against in this era. There's really no comparison. Who defended Jordan? The best two guys that defended him were probably Joe Dumars and Gary Payton? Bryant would drop 40 on both of those guys with ease if he wanted to.

Kobe has dominated former defensive players of the year. Artest when he was in Houston. Bryant shit on him in the playoffs. Bowen. Bryant shit on him. Dwade who will go down as a better player than Drexler Stockton and Malone for sure imo has been one of the best defenders on Kobe over the years.

The 2 guard spot was definitely not as stacked in Jordan's day as it is in today's league, and the same will probably be the case 20 years from now when kids continue to get more and more athletic and it becomes harder and harder to score the basketball.

[Ratpack]

you cant put kobe in a lot of the discussions if you look at his number he isnt a great rebound nor is he a great passer yeah he won 5 rings but shaq helped him get 3 of them. I dont know how you can basically put a pure scorer who basically hasnt done anything else in his career as one of the greatest of all time.

Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double a year for goodness sake. Besides the 81 point game can you name any other memorable game for kobe. I know 2 guards dont do a lot but shoot and i'm gonna get a lot of hate for this but if your gonna be one of the greatest you have to do more than just score in my opinion.

[Ratpack]

if lebron wins 2 more he will go down as a better player than kobe more mvp's better defender rebounder and passer.

[face]

[rich_24]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Lebron James will finish as 1 or 2.

Kobe still can finish 1 or 2 too, not only LBJ..

[bleek88]

Vlade Divac

[easyliving]

magic johnson is the greatest laker ever no doubt. no way should kobe or kareem be above him in any list.

[Goat Milk]

you cant put kobe in a lot of the discussions if you look at his number he isnt a great rebound nor is he a great passer yeah he won 5 rings but shaq helped him get 3 of them. I dont know how you can basically put a pure scorer who basically hasnt done anything else in his career as one of the greatest of all time.

Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double a year for goodness sake. Besides the 81 point game can you name any other memorable game for kobe. I know 2 guards dont do a lot but shoot and i'm gonna get a lot of hate for this but if your gonna be one of the greatest you have to do more than just score in my opinion.

1. Kobe Bryant most NBA first team selections of ALL TIME

2. Kobe Bryant most NBA first team DEFENSE selections ALL time.

That means most in history of the nba....

Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double during a time when the game pace was way faster, which led to more possessions, which led to more shot attempts, which led to inflated stats.

Have you watched the Big O play? He is no where near the player Kobe Bryant is. Not even close.

Lebron James is playing with a top 20 player in nba history....

[Butterface]

Lebron also plays more than one position, he is a freak of nature, he'll be up there.

[face]

magic johnson is the greatest laker ever no doubt. no way should kobe or kareem be above him in any list.

magic 17k points kareem 38k points

lots more stuff he has way more of too

[The Architect]

1. Kobe Bryant most NBA first team selections of ALL TIME

2. Kobe Bryant most NBA first team DEFENSE selections ALL time.

That means most in history of the nba....

Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double during a time when the game pace was way faster, which led to more possessions, which led to more shot attempts, which led to inflated stats.

Have you watched the Big O play? He is no where near the player Kobe Bryant is. Not even close.

Lebron James is playing with a top 20 player in nba history....

Lebron is playing with a top 20 player in history..Yes. Jordan had pippen (not top 20, still elite class) Kobe Bryant had SHAQ, most dominant player in the game while kobe was playing. Who won the finals mvp's during the first 3peat? All 3 were shaq. Jordan won all 6. YOu cannot compare the guard position between eras. Variations of the Zone defense were implemented BECAUSE of MJ. guards and defenders were allowed to handcheck while playing defense, a huge advantage for a defender...now, handchecking is illegal- in the league today, while yes being much more guard heavy than it was in jordan's day, it is easier to score in today's game. Jordan was getting to the foul line, gettign to the basket up against the best collective group of centers in history - olajuwon, oneal, ewing, robinson...

jordan won 10 scoring titles. how many has kobe won? only 2, average over 30 only three times. Jordan did 8 STRAIGHT years.
Jordan won a DPOY, Kobe never did that either...
All defensive first teams? Jordan - 9 Kobe - 8

[Goat Milk]

Lebron is playing with a top 20 player in history..Yes. Jordan had pippen (not top 20, still elite class) Kobe Bryant had SHAQ, most dominant player in the game while kobe was playing. Who won the finals mvp's during the first 3peat? All 3 were shaq. Jordan won all 6. YOu cannot compare the guard position between eras. Variations of the Zone defense were implemented BECAUSE of MJ. guards and defenders were allowed to handcheck while playing defense, a huge advantage for a defender...now, handchecking is illegal- in the league today, while yes being much more guard heavy than it was in jordan's day, it is easier to score in today's game. Jordan was getting to the foul line, gettign to the basket up against the best collective group of centers in history - olajuwon, oneal, ewing, robinson...

jordan won 10 scoring titles. how many has kobe won? only 2, average over 30 only three times. Jordan did 8 STRAIGHT years.
Jordan won a DPOY, Kobe never did that either...
All defensive first teams? Jordan - 9 Kobe - 8

I'm not saying Bryant is better than Jordan. Bryant doesn't have 8 defensive first teams. It's 9 or 10. And he'll shatter the first team all nba when he retires. Bryant was leading the league in scoring for 95% of last year and he rested the final game. There was another scoring title he could have won. He'll win one this year if he really wants to. How many ppg did Jordan average late in his career? I can make the argument that Bryant is in his prime in his 17th year. Jordan didn't even last that long.

Shaq won all 3, yeah, but he admitted in an interview in the final game of the 3rd championship that Kobe Bryant was "the best player in the world." He got robbed of 2 regular season MVPs. Scored 81 in a game. Will never be done again. Wilt's performance not even close. He outscored Dallas 62-61 by himself after 3 quarters.

The difference is Bryant won without Shaq and won without any elite players (in terms of history). Jordan never won without Pippen and Pippen carried the bulls on his back to an ECF without Jordan. Go check how many playoff games Jordan won without PIppen. The number is ridiculous. It's embarassing.

[The Architect]

I'm not saying Bryant is better than Jordan. Bryant doesn't have 8 defensive first teams. It's 9 or 10. And he'll shatter the first team all nba when he retires. Bryant was leading the league in scoring for 95% of last year and he rested the final game. There was another scoring title he could have won. He'll win one this year if he really wants to. How many ppg did Jordan average late in his career? I can make the argument that Bryant is in his prime in his 17th year. Jordan didn't even last that long.

Shaq won all 3, yeah, but he admitted in an interview in the final game of the 3rd championship that Kobe Bryant was "the best player in the world." He got robbed of 2 regular season MVPs. Scored 81 in a game. Will never be done again. Wilt's performance not even close. He outscored Dallas 62-61 by himself after 3 quarters.

The difference is Bryant won without Shaq and won without any elite players (in terms of history). Jordan never won without Pippen and Pippen carried the bulls on his back to an ECF without Jordan. Go check how many playoff games Jordan won without PIppen. The number is ridiculous. It's embarassing.

The number of games he won without pippen are also without phil jackson. so i think that argument is moot. and it is 8 defensive first teams for kobe, my facts are right. kobe "should have won" another scoring title...fine, give him this years and the one your talking about..that still at the most is 5. Jordan doubled that and won 10. if he hadn't "retired" literally in the middle of his prime, off of 3 straight titles, he would have more Championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs, All defensive team, all first team...etc. etc. So saying that Kobe "should have more" doesn't mean anything..MJ "should have more also" its based on what they have done, not what should have been. lie i said , its not about awards for me. its about stats and how they played the game. Tell me this: Has kobe ever shot over 50% from the field for an entire season? Nope. Jordan did it 6 times. Jordan's last three years with the Bulls? Played in every game and lead the league in scoring each year, avg 29.6 ppg over that span. What has kobe averaged the last three years?

[MrVJP]

This is an odd question, are we talking basketball or just NBA?
I doubt there is an argument against Kareem being #1 if you're counting college.
Michael
Kareem
Magic
Bean
Duncan

An aside.. talent:
Bean
Michael
Magic
LeBron/Wilt/Kareem
The degree of difficulty of the shots Kobe takes.. I wish he wasn't so arrogant and took more inside 15 feet like 23 did.
Disclaimer: Yes, Kobe is my favorite player.

Periods of utter dominance where there was no way they were not going to win the title:
S. O'Neal 2000-2002
Michael 1990-93
Russell..
..who would fit here?

How is Dwyane Wade top 20 all time..? I won't disregard an argument for it but he cannot be cemented inside the top 20 of all time yet.

[MrVJP]

The number of games he won without pippen are also without phil jackson. so i think that argument is moot. and it is 8 defensive first teams for kobe, my facts are right. kobe "should have won" another scoring title...fine, give him this years and the one your talking about..that still at the most is 5. Jordan doubled that and won 10. if he hadn't "retired" literally in the middle of his prime, off of 3 straight titles, he would have more Championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs, All defensive team, all first team...etc. etc. So saying that Kobe "should have more" doesn't mean anything..MJ "should have more also" its based on what they have done, not what should have been. lie i said , its not about awards for me. its about stats and how they played the game. Tell me this: Has kobe ever shot over 50% from the field for an entire season? Nope. Jordan did it 6 times. Jordan's last three years with the Bulls? Played in every game and lead the league in scoring each year, avg 29.6 ppg over that span. What has kobe averaged the last three years?

Kobe was All D-1st team 9 times.

[Goat Milk]

The number of games he won without pippen are also without phil jackson. so i think that argument is moot. and it is 8 defensive first teams for kobe, my facts are right. kobe "should have won" another scoring title...fine, give him this years and the one your talking about..that still at the most is 5. Jordan doubled that and won 10. if he hadn't "retired" literally in the middle of his prime, off of 3 straight titles, he would have more Championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs, All defensive team, all first team...etc. etc. So saying that Kobe "should have more" doesn't mean anything..MJ "should have more also" its based on what they have done, not what should have been. lie i said , its not about awards for me. its about stats and how they played the game. Tell me this: Has kobe ever shot over 50% from the field for an entire season? Nope. Jordan did it 6 times. Jordan's last three years with the Bulls? Played in every game and lead the league in scoring each year, avg 29.6 ppg over that span. What has kobe averaged the last three years?

The level of difficulty of Bryant's shot cannot be compared to anyone in history. The guy takes the most difficult shots I've ever seen. Bryant is not as efficient as Jordan and never was. D Wade shoots almost 50% from the field from his career. Is Wade the offensive player Bryant is? No, it's not even close.

Bryant has 9 defensive first teams, the most ever. And will continue to get more.

[MrVJP]

No doubt most of you have seen this already but..

http://youtu.be/v27Hk5OIe-k

[MrVJP]

The level of difficulty of Bryant's shot cannot be compared to anyone in history. The guy takes the most difficult shots I've ever seen. Bryant is not as efficient as Jordan and never was. D Wade shoots almost 50% from the field from his career. Is Wade the offensive player Bryant is? No, it's not even close.

Bryant has 9 defensive first teams, the most ever. And will continue to get more.

Yes, I said this too and agree. It's like there is a huge chasm between the degree of difficulty in the shots he takes and whoever might be 2nd. Wade outside 15 feet is laughable.

[Goat Milk]

How is Dwyane Wade top 20 all time..? I won't disregard an argument for it but he cannot be cemented inside the top 20 of all time yet.

Wade is already like 31 years old bro. What is this, like his 10th year already in the NBA. How many guys average 25 5 and 5 in nba history? Wade is maybe one of 5 guys I would bet. Those numbers are ridiculous. Not to mention the greatest performance in an NBA finals series in history and the third best scorer (I Think?) in terms of ppg in NBA finals history...

The most blocks per game for a guard in nba history. And that's at 6'3, 6'4. Lebron is 6'9 and can't even get as many blocks as D Wade.

[altieriflyers]

What about Chamberlain and Russell? one of the two in 5th place maybe?

[Goat Milk]

What about Chamberlain and Russell? one of the two in 5th place maybe?

Russel had 0 offensive game. Too many ppl give him too much credit. A great player no doubt, one of the best ever. This is just my opinion but you have to be a complete player on BOTH ENDS for me to give you a spot in the top 5.

[h3da]

Shaq? Where would he stand lol

[MrVJP]

Wade is already like 31 years old bro. What is this, like his 10th year already in the NBA. How many guys average 25 5 and 5 in nba history? Wade is maybe one of 5 guys I would bet. Those numbers are ridiculous. Not to mention the greatest performance in an NBA finals series in history and the third best scorer (I Think?) in terms of ppg in NBA finals history...

The most blocks per game for a guard in nba history. And that's at 6'3, 6'4. Lebron is 6'9 and can't even get as many blocks as D Wade.

Yes, I understand this but let's look at this this way, is he undeniably ahead of any one of these players:
(No particular order I'm just trying to get to 20)
1. Jerry West 2. Kareem 3. O'Neal 4. Magic 5. Kobe 6. Bird 7. Russell 8. Michael 9. Duncan 10. Karl Malone 11. Hakeem 12. Moses Malone 13. Garnett 14. Barkley 15. Ewing 16. LeBron 17. Pippen 18. DrJ 19. Drexler 20. Nowitzki 21. Wilt 22. Rick Barry 23. Stockton

I will agree Wade at his best are better than some of these but I thought "Greatest" means being great over a long period. Wade has had 8 great seasons so he has 2-3 seasons to go imo.

[DOM-Ganador]

Russel had 0 offensive game. Too many ppl give him too much credit. A great player no doubt, one of the best ever. This is just my opinion but you have to be a complete player on BOTH ENDS for me to give you a spot in the top 5.

Russell was in a win or go home situation 21 times (College/Olympics/NBA)
Went 21 and 0.

He could have scored 30 a game easy if that was his role.All he cared about was winning.
If he played on a team without all those scorers, thats exactly what he would have done.

Look up some of the ridiculous rebound #s he had.I do remember seeing 50 on an ESPN classic game.
50,I repeat , HAWAII FIVE-O

1)MJ
2)Magic
3)Russell

After that, I think I would plug in 6-7 guys and it would be a great discussion over tall ones and BBQ.

[Goat Milk]

Yes, I understand this but let's look at this this way, is he undeniably ahead of any one of these players:
(No particular order I'm just trying to get to 20)
1. Jerry West 2. Kareem 3. O'Neal 4. Magic 5. Kobe 6. Bird 7. Russell 8. Michael 9. Duncan 10. Karl Malone 11. Hakeem 12. Moses Malone 13. Garnett 14. Barkley 15. Ewing 16. LeBron 17. Pippen 18. DrJ 19. Drexler 20. Nowitzki 21. Wilt 22. Rick Barry 23. Stockton

I will agree Wade at his best are better than some of these but I thought "Greatest" means being great over a long period. Wade has had 8 great seasons so he has 2-3 seasons to go imo.

Fair enough. He's definitely better than Stockton, Garnett, Drexler, and Rick barry right now imo. But you're right he has a couple more seasons to go let's see how he does.

DOM, how many times must we explain that there were inflated stats during that time because of the game pace, lack of defense, up and down tempo. 50 rebounds is more like 18-20 rebounds in today's game...

[DOM-Ganador]

Goat , I understand the huge differance between generations of all sports.
But, I guarantee, Russell would have found a way today, NOW, as a 6`9" tweener, to be
top player.

I would pay $ to go to a forum of NBA lifers from all decades, GM`s, coaches , etc and see what the truely informed would say.

Adrien Peterson or Jim brown???