Horse Racing questions and answers

[Louisvillekid1]

Fam getting first win at spa this meet today?

#5 in the 5th sneakiness

Lots of changes

I think I’m leaving off because it’s a big ticket , but figured I’d talk to you first

I used both Ortiz brothers 7,11 to close our pick 5 at this point but

Like the 1,5. & even 6 also

4th went deep

[JBEX]

Fam getting first win at spa this meet today?

#5 in the 5th sneakiness

Lots of changes

I think I’m leaving off because it’s a big ticket , but figured I’d talk to you first

I used both Ortiz brothers 7,11 to close our pick 5 at this point but

Like the 1,5. & even 6 also

4th went deep

like the ortiz brother's here.. went with jose but my 2nd would be irad.. even though 11 cost $370k pletcher fantastic when dropping to mcl.. debut at gulfstream in december was decent

[Louisvillekid1]

like the ortiz brother's here.. went with jose but my 2nd would be irad.. even though 11 cost $370k pletcher fantastic when dropping to mcl.. debut at gulfstream in december was decent

Let’s get it!

[str]

Fam getting first win at spa this meet today?

#5 in the 5th sneakiness

Lots of changes

I think I’m leaving off because it’s a big ticket , but figured I’d talk to you first

I used both Ortiz brothers 7,11 to close our pick 5 at this point but

Like the 1,5. & even 6 also

4th went deep

Don't have a form but assuming this is a drop from MSW?

If this is correct, I have to think he would not have stopped at 50k doing down unless he felt the horse could win for that.

Tony is not one to slowly drop.

Once they can't cut it, it's win or get out type mentality.

We would not have settled for 7/8ths either if he didn't feel that distance helped the cause.

I see an equipment change as well.

He does not practice at the Spa for sure.

Wants to win badly no question.

Hope that helps.

GL KID .

[Louisvillekid1]

When horsemen make those all around the world changes

Equipment
Distance
Surface
Rider

One train of thought I have is that if one or 2 works we are live

Another is desperation and being unsure

Of course all situations different

But tough to decifer at times

[str]

When horsemen make those all around the world changes

Equipment
Distance
Surface
Rider

One train of thought I have is that if one or 2 works we are live

Another is desperation and being unsure

Of course all situations different

But tough to decifer at times

If the trainer knows has a history of knowing what they are doing, the desperation is more like an F it, changes, and drop to win.

Think he might be 1st time gelding as well. Circled G ? next to the Lasix L.

Too me, it's like the trainer is pissed and it's time to stop giving the horse the benefit of the doubt.

I would say play into these moves as long as the connections are legit.

Nothing always works but this angle should be a +EV situation over time using what I mentioned.

Hope that makes sense.

[Louisvillekid1]

Yeah makes complete sense

Blinkers off
Gelded
Distance
Surface
Etc

[Louisvillekid1]

Congrats on the fam win

that firster had the goods too

ran huge

[JBEX]

hey str


R6 at laurel lacey has a nicely bred first time starter.. 2yo homebred with a speed (top, bottom), win early, classy pedigree .. dam was a stakes winner and has 2 winners from as many starters.. 100% 2yo winners so either one or both siblings started at 2.. it's who I'd play in this race

#5 roof top bar (6-1)

[str]

hey str


R6 at laurel lacey has a nicely bred first time starter.. 2yo homebred with a speed (top, bottom), win early, classy pedigree .. dam was a stakes winner and has 2 winners from as many starters.. 100% 2yo winners so either one or both siblings started at 2.. it's who I'd play in this race

#5 roof top bar (6-1)

Just saw the form.

Would expect a solid effort from this one 1st out.

Thanks JBEX

[JBEX]

Just saw the form.

Would expect a solid effort from this one 1st out.

Thanks JBEX

no problem str.. she's tremendously profitable with maidens.. they haven't caught on yet

[str]

no problem str.. she's tremendously profitable with maidens.. they haven't caught on yet

That's incredible.

The family has excelled at that since forever.

[JBEX]

That's incredible.

The family has excelled at that since forever.

yeah I remember you told that before

[JBEX]

lost all chance at the start.. ironically your other buddy won @ 30-1 plus...own/bred and trained ..really didn't care for him but something that he wins with a bomb in this race lol

[str]

lost all chance at the start.. ironically your other buddy won @ 30-1 plus...own/bred and trained ..really didn't care for him but something that he wins with a bomb in this race lol

Hammy's babies are almost always speedy early.

In that race, nobody really ran much for one reason or another.

[Louisvillekid1]

In your opinion

What factors play into such poor #’s from claiming horses from certain barns.

I.e Claims from Rudy Rodriguez’s Barn , Michael Maker’s , Jorge Navarro , etc...

[JBEX]

hey str

not a great sleeper so here we go lol..

klaravich stables ,whose chad brown's biggest client, is going to give you the opportunity to train one of two horses for them sight unseen..reason I give the connections is you know these folks know what they're doing buying horses..both two year olds bought at kee spring sale and both cost about $300k..

A) one of them by ghostzapper($85k fee) out of a g3 stakes winning mare whose 1 foal to race so far was a minor stakes winner..so $300k makes sense

B) other by a $20k stallion,dam was a minor winner (not stakes) who produced 1 decent winner (no stakes) from 2 foals to race .. $300k makes no sense


who would you choose to train knowing nothing else?

[str]

In your opinion

What factors play into such poor #’s from claiming horses from certain barns.

I.e Claims from Rudy Rodriguez’s Barn , Michael Maker’s , Jorge Navarro , etc...

Wow. What a great but tough question to answer .

The biggest thing to look for IMO is if a trainer just wants the horse out of the barn stall for another to fill or if they are real focused on winning and they play the claiming game.

Some don't play much with claimers while others thrive on them. Those that do thrive on them are typically quite astute in their craft. Some are numbers only trainers that place horses purely on figures. Others are born and raised leg, soundness, trainers. And a small % are both.

The leg and soundness trainers are typically tougher to improve on. Why? Because they have and do everything possible in order to get the most out of the horse. Those types would include Rudy Rod. How do I know that? Who he learned under. The best chance to improve on Rudy is to take one that just does not respond to whatever he might be trying with the horse in the morning. What I mean is basically a horse he has not connected with. And there won't be many, but it does happen. But, if he indeed was connecting with the horse and whoever claimed it read the situation wrong, they most likely just claimed a lemon.
When you claim from a guy like him, and the horse has problems that are manageable but need work, you will have your work cut out for you to match skills with a guy like Rudy. He learned from a top notch horseman whose forte was keeping a horse with problems going.

Can't speak to Mike Maker. Never knew him or followed him.

As for Navarro, a lot of drug talk swirled around about him from Monmouth Park. Must have been a lot because I heard about it and I am not there anymore. Don't know if it is true or not. But I have to think that he came up under someone that really knew how to take care of a horse with problems. He had to have learned it from somebody. If it was all drugs, he would not sustain in NY or other places nowadays. I am sure that he faced scrutiny that most did not face once those rumors started.
Can't speak for Monmouth nowadays but back in the day, they were all over you with eyes everywhere.

So for a handicapper, it will be tough to find out all that is needed to fully understand this stuff. It's probably best to look at the % of 1st off the claim and things like that. As I have stated before, all trainers, myself included have "go to" moves for claimers. Their race record will bear that out over time. Hell, I never looked at mine until I left the game and plain as day, it's right there to see.

Small outfit to big outfit usually is a solid angle to play on. Big outfit to small outfit is typically a play against. Of course, that is rule of thumb. If you can break it down or in a perfect world, find a small outfit that is real sharp, that is REAL solid. In the past, you have named a few smaller outfit guys that I raced against in Maryland. Damon D. and Mike Pino for starters. I know, I know, it looks like they HAVE to be drug guys. I would think that as well if I didn't know better. They are not. They are just real good at what they know.

Hope that helps LKID !

I can break it down more I guess but don't know if this is sufficient or if you want something in particular I have not mentioned.
Let me know.

[JBEX]

hey str

not a great sleeper so here we go lol..

klaravich stables ,whose chad brown's biggest client, is going to give you the opportunity to train one of two horses for them sight unseen..reason I give the connections is you know these folks know what they're doing buying horses..both two year olds bought at kee spring sale and both cost about $300k..

A) one of them by ghostzapper($85k fee) out of a g3 stakes winning mare whose 1 foal to race so far was a minor stakes winner..so $300k makes sense

B) other by a $20k stallion,dam was a minor winner (not stakes) who produced 1 decent winner (no stakes) from 2 foals to race .. $300k makes no sense


who would you choose to train knowing nothing else?

I guess when you get right down to it what i'm really asking (in a round about way lol) is do you think that's a good handicapping angle.. the modest credentials big price tag..I use it a lot as you know..if i've asked you before my apologies

[Louisvillekid1]

Wow. What a great but tough question to answer .

The biggest thing to look for IMO is if a trainer just wants the horse out of the barn stall for another to fill or if they are real focused on winning and they play the claiming game.

Some don't play much with claimers while others thrive on them. Those that do thrive on them are typically quite astute in their craft. Some are numbers only trainers that place horses purely on figures. Others are born and raised leg, soundness, trainers. And a small % are both.

The leg and soundness trainers are typically tougher to improve on. Why? Because they have and do everything possible in order to get the most out of the horse. Those types would include Rudy Rod. How do I know that? Who he learned under. The best chance to improve on Rudy is to take one that just does not respond to whatever he might be trying with the horse in the morning. What I mean is basically a horse he has not connected with. And there won't be many, but it does happen. But, if he indeed was connecting with the horse and whoever claimed it read the situation wrong, they most likely just claimed a lemon.
When you claim from a guy like him, and the horse has problems that are manageable but need work, you will have your work cut out for you to match skills with a guy like Rudy. He learned from a top notch horseman whose forte was keeping a horse with problems going.

Can't speak to Mike Maker. Never knew him or followed him.

As for Navarro, a lot of drug talk swirled around about him from Monmouth Park. Must have been a lot because I heard about it and I am not there anymore. Don't know if it is true or not. But I have to think that he came up under someone that really knew how to take care of a horse with problems. He had to have learned it from somebody. If it was all drugs, he would not sustain in NY or other places nowadays. I am sure that he faced scrutiny that most did not face once those rumors started.
Can't speak for Monmouth nowadays but back in the day, they were all over you with eyes everywhere.

So for a handicapper, it will be tough to find out all that is needed to fully understand this stuff. It's probably best to look at the % of 1st off the claim and things like that. As I have stated before, all trainers, myself included have "go to" moves for claimers. Their race record will bear that out over time. Hell, I never looked at mine until I left the game and plain as day, it's right there to see.

Small outfit to big outfit usually is a solid angle to play on. Big outfit to small outfit is typically a play against. Of course, that is rule of thumb. If you can break it down or in a perfect world, find a small outfit that is real sharp, that is REAL solid. In the past, you have named a few smaller outfit guys that I raced against in Maryland. Damon D. and Mike Pino for starters. I know, I know, it looks like they HAVE to be drug guys. I would think that as well if I didn't know better. They are not. They are just real good at what they know.

Hope that helps LKID !

I can break it down more I guess but don't know if this is sufficient or if you want something in particular I have not mentioned.
Let me know.

Thank you for the response

amazing as always

It’s very interesting topic

I’ll have a follow up question to it tomorrow

[Louisvillekid1]

See I don’t even know the process

like does a trainer just have a fund from several owners

that they can put in the claim


always says says claimed by trainer


but they ain’t paying for it and work for several clients

very ignorant question I know ,

but I just never had the pleasure to be inside the game like that

Unfortunately, just a handicapper and fan of the game

[mrginandtonic]

Sir STR, I was looking at the form earlier today during my lunch hour at work. The 10th race at Saratoga, The Sword Dancer, really made me scratched my head. This is supposed to be a Grade 1 race and yet there are 3 of the 9 horses ( 1-Proven Reserves, 2-Tiz Morning and the 3-Noble Thought) just don't belong but they were entered nonetheless. They are either claiming or N1X allowance or just broke maiden after many many tries. These horses clearly don't belong in this race, hence the ML were 30-1, 50-1 and 30-1. They went off at 60-1, 77-1, 43-1. Shouldn't there be some kind of restrictions or accomplishment before you are allowed to enter? Shouldn't the trainer tell these over zealous owners the reality? This just baffles me Not sure if I am making any sense right now.... I am totally lack of sleep...

[str]

hey str

not a great sleeper so here we go lol..

klaravich stables ,whose chad brown's biggest client, is going to give you the opportunity to train one of two horses for them sight unseen..reason I give the connections is you know these folks know what they're doing buying horses..both two year olds bought at kee spring sale and both cost about $300k..

A) one of them by ghostzapper($85k fee) out of a g3 stakes winning mare whose 1 foal to race so far was a minor stakes winner..so $300k makes sense

B) other by a $20k stallion,dam was a minor winner (not stakes) who produced 1 decent winner (no stakes) from 2 foals to race .. $300k makes no sense


who would you choose to train knowing nothing else?

I would have chosen B.

B) other by a $20k stallion,dam was a minor winner (not stakes) who produced 1 decent winner (no stakes) from 2 foals to race .. $300k makes no sense .


Why? Because the other one sounds like a fine opportunity but this one is obviously very very special as far as upside is concerned.

If it was a yearling it might be a different story but as a 2 year old, the horse has been broken, ridden, and probably flashed a 10 for an 1/8th or is such a superior mover and has no doubt shown several dominant traits along the way.
You don't just pay 300k for a horse that should go for far less without a long list of boxes checked along the way going back to whoever had the horse as a yearling, etc.

For those reasons, I would choose B.

[str]

I guess when you get right down to it what i'm really asking (in a round about way lol) is do you think that's a good handicapping angle.. the modest credentials big price tag..I use it a lot as you know..if i've asked you before my apologies

Yes, it is an astute angle that not everyone thinks of.

The key though from there is to make sure the firster is trained by someone who wins 1st out. For instance, if Wesley Ward, Benny Perkins back in the day, Salzman family, in Md., etc. has the horse, bet with confidence. But if it was myself when I was there, or a trainer that looks to peak at race 3 or 4 and build off of the 1st race, then you have to way the odds, post, rider, trainer, probably no lasix 1st out, ( that is usually 2nd time out if they scope evidence of bleeding so they can be eligible, which these days, is rare not to.), you have to decide weighing all of that, if it has value or not.

And that is not to say that my firster or another trainer that does not go all in first out won't win, it just means that trainer A who HAS gone all in for the 1st race will have a somewhat improved horse in race 3-4 whereas my style will have a vastly improved horse in race 3-4. At least, that is the plan that some trainers choose over the all in approach that will probably , but not always include, lasix as a firster and blinkers right off the bat if that was noticed by "aggressive trainer of group A win 1st out" type trainers.

Hope that makes sense.

[str]

See I don’t even know the process

like does a trainer just have a fund from several owners

that they can put in the claim


always says says claimed by trainer


but they ain’t paying for it and work for several clients

very ignorant question I know ,

but I just never had the pleasure to be inside the game like that

Unfortunately, just a handicapper and fan of the game

Q. like does a trainer just have a fund from several owners

that they can put in the claim

always says says claimed by trainer

A. No. At least not legally. If the horse is claimed in the trainers name, it should mean, it is the trainers own money, NOT a hidden silent partner. That is strictly forbidden in racing.

Q. very ignorant question I know ,

A. Not at all. Smart question IMO because the theory would then be, they must have REALLY liked that horse because they claimed it for themselves instead of an owner. I used to hear that a lot. And while I understand the mentality of the public thinking that, it would be a disastrous business model if that was true as you would offend and piss off your other owners that want to claim, right?
I always understood why fans or others would think that but THAT would be the gambling, make money right away thought process and not the business model thought process that is required to be a successful trainer that has clients other than themselves.

Q. but I just never had the pleasure to be inside the game like that

Unfortunately, just a handicapper and fan of the game

A. That's pretty much why I do this LKID. I want to help people understand the things they won't get in a program or form.


Plenty of trainers pour their money made back into the game to help support their own brand and product.

If they are sheltering money for hidden owners, they better not get caught. Whew. Playin with fire there KID.

I know you will have more questions about this.

Don't hesitate.

That's why I am here.

GL at the Spa today !

[JBEX]

Q. like does a trainer just have a fund from several owners

that they can put in the claim

always says says claimed by trainer

A. No. At least not legally. If the horse is claimed in the trainers name, it should mean, it is the trainers own money, NOT a hidden silent partner. That is strictly forbidden in racing.

Q. very ignorant question I know ,

A. Not at all. Smart question IMO because the theory would then be, they must have REALLY liked that horse because they claimed it for themselves instead of an owner. I used to hear that a lot. And while I understand the mentality of the public thinking that, it would be a disastrous business model if that was true as you would offend and piss off your other owners that want to claim, right?
I always understood why fans or others would think that but THAT would be the gambling, make money right away thought process and not the business model thought process that is required to be a successful trainer that has clients other than themselves.

Q. but I just never had the pleasure to be inside the game like that

Unfortunately, just a handicapper and fan of the game

A. That's pretty much why I do this LKID. I want to help people understand the things they won't get in a program or form.


Plenty of trainers pour their money made back into the game to help support their own brand and product.

If they are sheltering money for hidden owners, they better not get caught. Whew. Playin with fire there KID.

I know you will have more questions about this.

Don't hesitate.

That's why I am here.

GL at the Spa today !

I must say I never would have thought that.. so a trainer claims a horse for himself with the hope that one of his current owners will want in on ownership? I would've thought the trainer gets together with his clients and sees if they're interested in claiming that particular horse.. understand how that could get sticky if he has multiple owners playing the game at a similar level price wise.. maybe I'm missing something?

[Louisvillekid1]

Think he’s saying , the trainer makes claim and becomes the owner

[JBEX]

Think he’s saying , the trainer makes claim and becomes the owner

yes but while some trainers will actually race and own most will go to the clients at some point.. understand the trainers initially are the owners but I would think it's just a step to get to the eventual owner

[Louisvillekid1]

I would of thought the same as well

Like I see all the time an example

So and so horse claimed by Steve asmussen

Then when runs

Never says
Trainer Steve Asmussen
Owner Steve Asmussen

Granted I’m sure it could be a company name that I just don’t know

[str]

I must say I never would have thought that.. so a trainer claims a horse for himself with the hope that one of his current owners will want in on ownership? I would've thought the trainer gets together with his clients and sees if they're interested in claiming that particular horse.. understand how that could get sticky if he has multiple owners playing the game at a similar level price wise.. maybe I'm missing something?

Q. so a trainer claims a horse for himself with the hope that one of his current owners will want in on ownership?


A. NO. A trainer cannot claim a horse for themselves and sell hidden pieces. That could be considered money laundering if the wrong people were involved. That would also allow people ruled off from racing to continue to be in the game they were ruled off of.

In order to own a horse or any piece of a horse, you MUST have a license in that state in which you claim AND run. So if the horse is claimed in the name of the trainer, the trainer is the sole owner. No partners. Now, after 60 days ( used to be that), a horse CAN be sold to another owner but trainer cannot do this all the time or they will be investigated.

Hidden ownership is a BIG DEAL. Just can't mess with that. The Feds will be all over you if it blows up.

So when you see a stable name, that can be 1 or 20 or more people, BUT, they must ALL be licensed.

You can only imagine the dirty money that could float around if not like this. Did it happen much back in the day? Yes. I even watched a guy that was claiming a horse for 4,000 in Md. sell 5 one quarter shares for 1,000 each . LOLOL. He was real broke and only got his trainers license for just this reason. Life long groom, crazy as hell, a drunk, and, well you get the picture. That ended poorly as you could imagine.
That guy is dead so I don't mind talking about it now. Unreal. Of course, the owners were jackasses themselves with bad reputations so they got what they deserved in my mind.

All this hidden ownership stuff was really cracked down on right before I left the game in the mid to late 90's and then more so after 9/11, it apparently got crazy with all the loose money flying around. That's when the feds stepped in . You see all the stuff banks require today when it comes to cash and wires. It is just as scrutinized with claiming and money that must be in an account of a licensed owner, in the horseman's bookkeepers office prior to claiming with it . As well it should be.


Q. I would've thought the trainer gets together with his clients and sees if they're interested in claiming that particular horse.

A. I would offer most if not all claims to my other owners that had funds available that day before claiming in my name or my families name. As a courtesy. I did not want any thoughts of I only claim the best ones for myself floating around between my owners. It floated around enough in the general public . But my owners knew that was not the case.

Q. understand how that could get sticky if he has multiple owners playing the game at a similar level price wise.


A. Exactly. It was a job in itself to avoid that.

That's why I tell people I did not have time to think about betting. There were 1000 things going on at once.

Lol, very few believed me.

[str]

Think he’s saying , the trainer makes claim and becomes the owner

Yes. The sole owner.

As a side to that, a trainer can be part of a stable name also. But as I said, that stable name has to be licensed as well as ALL people within the stable.

[str]

yes but while some trainers will actually race and own most will go to the clients at some point.. understand the trainers initially are the owners but I would think it's just a step to get to the eventual owner

It should not be like that. Yes, it can happen now and then but trainers cannot do this with regularity. Can't imagine that being allowed.

[str]

I would of thought the same as well

Like I see all the time an example

So and so horse claimed by Steve asmussen

Then when runs

Never says
Trainer Steve Asmussen
Owner Steve Asmussen

Granted I’m sure it could be a company name that I just don’t know

When they announce or print the claim, the owner is announced or printed as well.

Please let me know when you see this if it occurs.

The change of ownership must also be printed in the form and certainly the program if I am not mistaken.

Not positive on that though.

I do know that the Stewards must sign off on all transactions like this.

[str]

Sir STR, I was looking at the form earlier today during my lunch hour at work. The 10th race at Saratoga, The Sword Dancer, really made me scratched my head. This is supposed to be a Grade 1 race and yet there are 3 of the 9 horses ( 1-Proven Reserves, 2-Tiz Morning and the 3-Noble Thought) just don't belong but they were entered nonetheless. They are either claiming or N1X allowance or just broke maiden after many many tries. These horses clearly don't belong in this race, hence the ML were 30-1, 50-1 and 30-1. They went off at 60-1, 77-1, 43-1. Shouldn't there be some kind of restrictions or accomplishment before you are allowed to enter? Shouldn't the trainer tell these over zealous owners the reality? This just baffles me Not sure if I am making any sense right now.... I am totally lack of sleep...

Hi Mr. GndT.
Always a pleasure to talk with you.

Q. These horses clearly don't belong in this race, hence the ML were 30-1, 50-1 and 30-1. They went off at 60-1, 77-1, 43-1. Shouldn't there be some kind of restrictions or accomplishment before you are allowed to enter?

A. Sometimes it is over zealous owners that force a trainer to run in terrible spots. And I'm not sure about this race but... was this race part of a promotion like a rainbow 6 race or whatever?

If so, and depending on the betting allowed for the race, more times than you might guess, the racing dept. will "ask" meaning put pressure on a trainer or owner, to run in a race if it needs to fill to a certain size field or if it's part of a gimmick bet. Management wants a 9 horse field and only have 5-6 horses in it. So they call the trainers and ask if they will enter. This is especially true if there is like one odds on horse and the rest are not very good. They can gently let the trainer know that the race is coming up "light" other than the 1-5 shot for instance to try and lure them into running for 2nd or 3rd for G-1 black type. Granted this happens much more often in the female division for broodmare status but I have seen it happen in all types depending on the situation.
Don't know if this is what happened here or not . Just saying that it could have.



Q. Shouldn't the trainer tell these over zealous owners the reality?

A. If it was not what I stated above, yes, the trainer should try and get the owner to be realistic. That said, that owner might have plenty more horses in the barn or on the way and the trainer has to weigh the prospects looking forward as well as the downside of running in that race.
Alot depends on the entire picture but it is sometimes tough to tell an owner no when they help put food on the trainers table and create jobs for a couple of grooms a hot walker and an exercise rider.
It can be tough to deal with for sure. If that is the case, it becomes a give and take but in the long run, it helps neither side long term. IMO, the game is tough enough when you spot to win.

Hope that helps Mr. GandT.
Keep up the good work in your thread !

[str]

I think that catches me up.

Please tell me if I missed one.