Horse Racing questions and answers

[str]

I don't know to what extent you're currently involved in racing, but do you miss the backside? There are days I really really miss it.

Yes Jake I sure do. I am not involved at all in racing anymore. It was such a part of me that the only way to leave it was completely.
I can say that I do not miss the game nearly as much as I miss the people in it. The friendships and bonds that I made with so many were deep ones . I still stay in touch with probably a 6-8 of my closest friends but their are so many others that I wish I could see every now and then. I had 30+ employees for a couple of decades that I no longer see or hear from and that is tough. Many of those were for 10+ years at a time.
I however do not miss the game nearly as much as I thought I might. I saw way too many trainers cheating and as the game changed I began to not like it at times.
With all of the drug positives going on and knowing first hand that a trainer had broken a rule that I witnessed first hand in a detention barn 2 hours before the race , he goes on to beat me a head with that horse and have nothing happen to him, well , that was something that I could not except.
Will post a story soon about an owner I had, in regards to that, but not tonight.
Anyway, tell me about you at the track. Did you work at Belmont? Please tell me who you worked for and what you did as well as when. I would love to hear your story.
Thanks for asking!

[JakeLc]

I'm an Illinois -bred. I had never been around a horse except as a kid getting a pony ride. My first job on the backside was as a hotwalker for one of the most notorious( think Labor Day betting scandal in Chicago) trainers on my circuit. Getting the job was a little bit of a story in itself but he gave me the job. Down the shedrow was a guy with a few horses, a g/f,a dog and a big paint pony. After getting to know this guy I decided working for him would be much more fun so he hired me. I didn't actually rub any for him but I walked them and did things that needed to be done. I ended up owning 2 horses and did ok but he lost his owner ( typical know-it-all owner who wouldn't listen and ended up ruining a couple of decent horses) and left for Florida. He figured it was better to be broke in Florida than broke at Hawthorne in the winter. I bought a horse with him in Florida and won a few races but he couldn't sustain himself on our nickle claimers so he took a job as an assistant and that put me out of the game. He finally did catch a break and was given some decent horses to train and won a BC race. I don't trust anyone but him so I'm out of the game ( on the backside) for good and I think things have worked out for him since his days training my claimers.
I do miss it though.I hope that wasn't too long-winded.

[AbeFroman]

Great stories guys, thanks!

STR, next time I am out, probably this weekend, I will grab a book and we can page through it. Thanks!

[AbeFroman]

STR is this link any better? http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbH...0429-20110522D

This link to what appears to be Belmont's condition book.

[AbeFroman]

Or this, from Penn's site: http://www.hollywoodpnrc.com/Racing/...4-30-2011.ashx

I once heard that the biggest pain in the ass for trainers is the fact that owners can now see the book online, so this may be what we're looking for. Let me know.

[Dark Horse]

Honestly I think this might happen to some degree in harness racing, but I do not know for sure, but if it is happening anywhere in flat racing other than some rinky dink track as small and backwards as Charlestown at least and probably less than that , I would be stunned. For a trainer to say something like that at let's say Pimlico , Del. Park , Parx. is simply unheard of. In my time it did not exist. If you could give me more info as to who would do this or where the race took place I could better speak too it. Please let me know.

I read about this in one of the books I've been reading. Can't remember where, though. Probably either in 'Expert Handicapping' (Liftin), or 'Betting Thoroughbreds' (Davidowitz).

Will post quote if I can find it.

[sports28]

GoBlue or anyone else you got anymore sites?

[str]

I'm an Illinois -bred. I had never been around a horse except as a kid getting a pony ride. My first job on the backside was as a hotwalker for one of the most notorious( think Labor Day betting scandal in Chicago) trainers on my circuit. Getting the job was a little bit of a story in itself but he gave me the job. Down the shedrow was a guy with a few horses, a g/f,a dog and a big paint pony. After getting to know this guy I decided working for him would be much more fun so he hired me. I didn't actually rub any for him but I walked them and did things that needed to be done. I ended up owning 2 horses and did ok but he lost his owner ( typical know-it-all owner who wouldn't listen and ended up ruining a couple of decent horses) and left for Florida. He figured it was better to be broke in Florida than broke at Hawthorne in the winter. I bought a horse with him in Florida and won a few races but he couldn't sustain himself on our nickle claimers so he took a job as an assistant and that put me out of the game. He finally did catch a break and was given some decent horses to train and won a BC race. I don't trust anyone but him so I'm out of the game ( on the backside) for good and I think things have worked out for him since his days training my claimers.
I do miss it though.I hope that wasn't too long-winded.

Great story. I did not grow up around horses either. I did like the betting angle and that is what introduced me to horses. I was at Bowie when the famous St. Valentines Day race was run. I had finished my work as a groom ( maybe a foreman, not sure exactly) and was aspiring to be a trainer. I would go over to the paddock and mark the program as we called it. What I was doing was looking at possible claims as they walked the paddock and writing down what was wrong with each horse physically. Then watch them warm up , run, pull up, jog back, and then watch the replay. Little did I know at the time I was witnessing history.

[str]

Great stories guys, thanks!

STR, next time I am out, probably this weekend, I will grab a book and we can page through it. Thanks!

Sounds good.

[str]

STR is this link any better? http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbH...0429-20110522D

This link to what appears to be Belmont's condition book.

Yes. That is it but start with the Penn. Nat. book. It will be a little easier to understand . Belmont can be complex this time of year.

[str]

Or this, from Penn's site: http://www.hollywoodpnrc.com/Racing/~/media/grantville/files/conditionbook/CB-04-04-2011to04-30-2011.ashx

I once heard that the biggest pain in the ass for trainers is the fact that owners can now see the book online, so this may be what we're looking for. Let me know.

Sorry , was reading them 1 at a time. Yes , this is the book.Try to read through it and get the flow of how often certain races are written.

LOL. Yes , owner's with a book can be difficult. They fall in to the trap of a book telling you when to run instead of the horse telling you when to run.

Had an old saying that I would tell owners when they approached me about maybe training there horses. Would only say it if I knew that they were a pain in the ass , which every trainer knows after a while. I would tell them , it is 45.00 dollars a day if I train them and 65.00 dollars a day if you train them.

[mrginandtonic]

Great thread sir, I do hv one question that I would like to hv a trainer's point of view. You mentioned that alot of people don't pay attention to workouts, I myself do look at them. My questions is how do u interpret them?? I mean some trainers work their horses fast routinely, some are opposite. Some hv published workout every 7 days between races, some don't hv any. Is there an advantage in working the horse that it will be raced on or does it matter? Thanks in advance.

[JakeLc]

http://www.heartlandcafe.com/journal/jrnl_50/j50_bm04.htm

I couldn't find much on the Labor day scandal but it get's discussed about a 1/3rd of the way down on this page.
As a meaningless sidenote, my first morning on the job, proudly wearing my newly minted Illinois Racing Board badge,I proceeded to lose it about an hour after I started work. Geary Louviere found my lost badge for me.

[gtkid911]

What was the Labor Day scandal? Sounds interesting

[str]

I read about this in one of the books I've been reading. Can't remember where, though. Probably either in 'Expert Handicapping' (Liftin), or 'Betting Thoroughbreds' (Davidowitz).

Will post quote if I can find it.

That is not surprising to me.
Being from Md. I knew Andy Beyer fairly well. Don't get me wrong , we did not hang out, but obviously, being a trainer with a sizable stable , we knew one another and would always say hello when we crossed paths.
In the conversations I either had with him or I had with players within his circle of friends I would hear from time to time about trainers stiffing horses or " giving" them a race.
I am hear to tell you that for every one knucklehead trainer that does this , there are hundreds of accusatory situations that occur where this could not be further from the truth. The problem is , when you are a gambler , you are in constant search of hitting a big score. Because of this, you look at things from that angle. Human nature leads us to believe that people in the game that have a possible control over this to an extent, think the same way. And while I would never say that no one thinks like this, I will say to anyone asking that this is simply an incorrect assumption . I, NEVER did this. EVER! Quite frankly , a trainer does not need too. There are so many things that happen in a race that can make a horse run terribly when he/she was expected to run well, that if a trainer wants to cash a ticket, all he has to do is wait for the occasion to present itself and run the horse back in a softer spot the next time and bet his money.
Now, obviously I do not expect guys like Litwin , Davidowitz, Andy, or anyone that chooses not too, to believe me because I said it. What I hope for, is for people to believe what I am saying, or at least entertain the thought that maybe they are a bit skewed in terms of there overall judgment.
That is the honest too god truth and like as I told another poster who enjoyed telling me all about the track and the way it "really" is, from another thread, I might be a lot of things , but gullible is not one of them.
Hope that helps.

[mrginandtonic]

wonder if you saw I earlier post sir, regarding the workout questions?

[Dark Horse]

That is not surprising to me.
Being from Md. I knew Andy Beyer fairly well. Don't get me wrong , we did not hang out, but obviously, being a trainer with a sizable stable , we knew one another and would always say hello when we crossed paths.
In the conversations I either had with him or I had with players within his circle of friends I would hear from time to time about trainers stiffing horses or " giving" them a race.
I am hear to tell you that for every one knucklehead trainer that does this , there are hundreds of accusatory situations that occur where this could not be further from the truth. The problem is , when you are a gambler , you are in constant search of hitting a big score. Because of this, you look at things from that angle. Human nature leads us to believe that people in the game that have a possible control over this to an extent, think the same way. And while I would never say that no one thinks like this, I will say to anyone asking that this is simply an incorrect assumption . I, NEVER did this. EVER! Quite frankly , a trainer does not need too. There are so many things that happen in a race that can make a horse run terribly when he/she was expected to run well, that if a trainer wants to cash a ticket, all he has to do is wait for the occasion to present itself and run the horse back in a softer spot the next time and bet his money.
Now, obviously I do not expect guys like Litwin , Davidowitz, Andy, or anyone that chooses not too, to believe me because I said it. What I hope for, is for people to believe what I am saying, or at least entertain the thought that maybe they are a bit skewed in terms of there overall judgment.
That is the honest too god truth and like as I told another poster who enjoyed telling me all about the track and the way it "really" is, from another thread, I might be a lot of things , but gullible is not one of them.
Hope that helps.

Good to know. Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up from a trainer's perspective.

[str]

Great thread sir, I do hv one question that I would like to hv a trainer's point of view. You mentioned that alot of people don't pay attention to workouts, I myself do look at them. My questions is how do u interpret them?? I mean some trainers work their horses fast routinely, some are opposite. Some hv published workout every 7 days between races, some don't hv any. Is there an advantage in working the horse that it will be raced on or does it matter? Thanks in advance.

Please read # 5 comment in this thread for some clarity as to why I think it is best to NOT pay much attention to them as a handicapper. I actually think that a lot of people DO pay attention to them but I also think that it can be quite misleading to most players. Workouts are very important in getting a horse ready between races. But it is impossible to understand them if you are trying to formulate an opinion based on them. There are simply to many unknown factors involving workouts that you as a handicapper have no way of knowing. As a result , I think it best to dis guard them instead of misinterpret them. Case in point:
I sent a horse to Rockingham for a stakes race from Del. Park one summer. Her name was Tor's Baby. She was a consummate overachiever her entire career. She was not any kind of work horse at all. She would barely get out of a 2 minute lick( a 2 minute mile, thus 1/4s in .15). I sent her up a week before the race. I worked her at the Rock about 3 days before the race. She went 3/8s in .42 . Racing had just implemented the rule about a published work needed if a horse was off 30+ days. The clocker asked me when I was going to work her for the race and I told him "I just did." He was not good with that but reluctantly put the work in to the system so the public could see it. She then ran the race and went 22.1/ 45.3/ 1:10 3/5 and got beat a head finishing second vying for the lead the entire race. No one could have used that work for anything positive while handicapping but indeed it was pretty good for her.
As times have changed, identifying horses that workout has become stricter at some tracks but many lesser tracks have no system in place and as a result it is a mess. I could go on and on but unless you are sorting out the Derby or B.Cup race or something like that, trying to understand workouts is very confusing.
One type of work that I might suggest looking at is if a horse goes with a "Blinkers On" change. If so, the horse must have worked from the gate with blinkers on prior to getting a gate card and allowing the change of equipment to take place. If you see a horse that has a faster than normal resent gate work and is adding blinkers , that would be something to consider for sure.

If that does not fully explain about workouts I can try to answer any other questions on the subject.

[str]

http://www.heartlandcafe.com/journal...0/j50_bm04.htm

I couldn't find much on the Labor day scandal but it get's discussed about a 1/3rd of the way down on this page.
As a meaningless sidenote, my first morning on the job, proudly wearing my newly minted Illinois Racing Board badge,I proceeded to lose it about an hour after I started work. Geary Louviere found my lost badge for me.

The Louviere name is big in racing. At least it used to be in the 60s-70s. There was a jock at Charlestown named Glenn Louviere when I was a teenager. Any relation I wonder?
Also, hated those stupid badges, when I was a green hot walker ,I always had a horse that reached over and would bite the damn badge. He tore many a sweater of mine.

[str]

What was the Labor Day scandal? Sounds interesting

Jake would have to fill you in on that one. I was not aware of that either. Do google the Bowie Race Course St. Valentines Day scandal.
I saw that first hand.

[mrginandtonic]

Please read # 5 comment in this thread for some clarity as to why I think it is best to NOT pay much attention to them as a handicapper. I actually think that a lot of people DO pay attention to them but I also think that it can be quite misleading to most players. Workouts are very important in getting a horse ready between races. But it is impossible to understand them if you are trying to formulate an opinion based on them. There are simply to many unknown factors involving workouts that you as a handicapper have no way of knowing. As a result , I think it best to dis guard them instead of misinterpret them. Case in point: I sent a horse to Rockingham for a stakes race from Del. Park one summer. Her name was Tor's Baby. She was a consummate overachiever her entire career. She was not any kind of work horse at all. She would barely get out of a 2 minute lick( a 2 minute mile, thus 1/4s in .15). I sent her up a week before the race. I worked her at the Rock about 3 days before the race. She went 3/8s in .42 . Racing had just implemented the rule about a published work needed if a horse was off 30+ days. The clocker asked me when I was going to work her for the race and I told him "I just did." He was not good with that but reluctantly put the work in to the system so the public could see it. She then ran the race and went 22.1/ 45.3/ 1:10 3/5 and got beat a head finishing second vying for the lead the entire race. No one could have used that work for anything positive while handicapping but indeed it was pretty good for her. As times have changed, identifying horses that workout has become stricter at some tracks but many lesser tracks have no system in place and as a result it is a mess. I could go on and on but unless you are sorting out the Derby or B.Cup race or something like that, trying to understand workouts is very confusing. One type of work that I might suggest looking at is if a horse goes with a "Blinkers On" change. If so, the horse must have worked from the gate with blinkers on prior to getting a gate card and allowing the change of equipment to take place. If you see a horse that has a faster than normal resent gate work and is adding blinkers , that would be something to consider for sure. If that does not fully explain about workouts I can try to answer any other questions on the subject.

thanks for your answer, for I have misread your thread #3, and #5, thought you had said that we should pay attention to them. sorry my misunderstanding. Now, I wont feel so bad as to why there are workouts and why there are not, and other workout info. thanks again.

[JakeLc]

There was a Glynn Louviere which was pronounced Glenn, that was Geary's brother. Geary was on the horse with the big lead and Glynn was on the horse that was trying to catch him in the Labor Day event. The brother of the first trainer I worked for was a vet and coincidentally treated all of the horses that were late scratches for that race on Labor Day. The Louvieres were the "house" riders for my first trainer. Working in that barn as my first job ever on the backside was an eye-opening experience .

[str]

There was a Glynn Louviere which was pronounced Glenn, that was Geary's brother. Geary was on the horse with the big lead and Glynn was on the horse that was trying to catch him in the Labor Day event. The brother of the first trainer I worked for was a vet and coincidentally treated all of the horses that were late scratches for that race on Labor Day. The Louvieres were the "house" riders for my first trainer. Working in that barn as my first job ever on the backside was an eye-opening experience .

If the timeline is correct, Glynn was at C.T. riding maybe after that? Very interesting. Was a good gate rider, that is, broke horses very well if I recall but I doubt I knew what I was actually seeing at the time.
It is amazing to look back and now realize what you saw first hand and were unaware of isn't it. These must sound like "fish" stories to some but they really happened.

[4banger]

Hard to bet

Hey pal, can u throw me some tips? I can never win

[JakeLc]

I thought Glynn stuck around Chicago but maybe he left for awhile and came back. I was 12 when the Labor Day thing went down and some of the timelines etc might be a bit fuzzy. My first trainer had carte-blanche to do what he wanted especially with his brother being a vet. I can only imagine what was on those training bills. He had about a dozen horses all owned by a multi-millionaire Sid Port who didn't seem to care about this string of horses. I think his main string was with Whittingham. Sometimes if we had one in and I didn't have to work that race I would look for him in the clubhouse and follow him to the window. I was curious about his reactions. He would always bet $100 win on his horse and that summer I worked for that barn at Arlington, literally not one horse hit the board.

[str]

I thought Glynn stuck around Chicago but maybe he left for awhile and came back. I was 12 when the Labor Day thing went down and some of the timelines etc might be a bit fuzzy. My first trainer had carte-blanche to do what he wanted especially with his brother being a vet. I can only imagine what was on those training bills. He had about a dozen horses all owned by a multi-millionaire Sid Port who didn't seem to care about this string of horses. I think his main string was with Whittingham. Sometimes if we had one in and I didn't have to work that race I would look for him in the clubhouse and follow him to the window. I was curious about his reactions. He would always bet $100 win on his horse and that summer I worked for that barn at Arlington, literally not one horse hit the board.

Yeah, My timelines are fuzzy too.
One of those Louviere's was at C.T. but I don't know for sure which one. Anyway, that is a great story. 100 bucks was real dough back in those times.

[JakeLc]

One of my jobs for that barn was after a race, if the horse wasn't already on the lasix list I would take it to the spit box to get the horse put on the lasix list. The trainer's brother would come by, draw some blood, and squirt it around the horses nose. I take the horse to the see the state vet, he asks me what the name of the horse is and voila, the horse is on the lasix list. The horses weren't scoped.

[str]

Hey pal, can u throw me some tips? I can never win

Don't want to be a smart ass, but honestly, when playing the horses, you get out what you put in. Read through the past posts and hopefully it will help.
A few tips of true or false that might help:
1. Bet the grey horse in the Mud or the Turf. This is true. Grey horses typically have white shelled hoofs. White hoofs are more tender than black hoofs and as a result, some of these types of horses enjoy running on softer , more cushion based surfaces. Not always, but if so, that is likely the reason.
2. He is bred for the grass so he will like it. False. Every horse is different. The reason a horse likes ANY particular type of surface is because he/she is willing to stride out to there fullest on it. They TRUST IT. If a horse does not trust the surface they will do the same as you or I do when we try to walk on ice or a questionable surface. They will shorten stride like we would take smaller steps.
3. Is there such a thing as horses for courses? Absolutely. Some horses love a certain track. Also, every year when we went to Pimlico, the horses that trained there year round usually ran very well early in the meet. A combination of the horse running at his/her home base and the trainer having prepared the horse in the months prior to be as ready as possible for the home meeting.
More later or if you have one , feel free to ask it.

[str]

One of my jobs for that barn was after a race, if the horse wasn't already on the lasix list I would take it to the spit box to get the horse put on the lasix list. The trainer's brother would come by, draw some blood, and squirt it around the horses nose. I take the horse to the see the state vet, he asks me what the name of the horse is and voila, the horse is on the lasix list. The horses weren't scoped.

That indeed took place in the beginning when you had to prove you bled before you could have Lasix. A stupid rule that they finally figured out was just that. Funny thing is, as you probably know, the blood does not have to show itself on the outside for a horse to have bled. It would be my guess that roughly 50% of all horses that run( excluding firsters) do indeed bleed to some extent. Most people assume that the winner did not but we both know that to be wrong.You do not need to stop, to have bled.

[JakeLc]

That was back in the day when Lasix was masking a lot of things and I think that trainer had some ulterior motives other than preventing hemorrhaging. Anyway I enjoyed making the trip down memory lane but I'm cluttering up your thread.

It does sometimes amaze me though that I've gone from arriving at work early at 4:30am to watch Sturges Ducoing blow his horses out clandestinely on a 3/8 mile training track in darkness in preparation for their first starts ( his first -starters went 4-4 that summer) or following a clocker to the window to see what he bet ( works in Illinois at that time were so phony---my 2nd trainer once worked a horse in 1:13 and the clockers said they would put us down for 1:20 but that's another story) to becoming a dyed-in-the-wool handicapping numbers cruncher on my computer. Sometimes I really do miss those old days.

[str]

That was back in the day when Lasix was masking a lot of things and I think that trainer had some ulterior motives other than preventing hemorrhaging. Anyway I enjoyed making the trip down memory lane but I'm cluttering up your thread.

It does sometimes amaze me though that I've gone from arriving at work early at 4:30am to watch Sturges Ducoing blow his horses out clandestinely on a 3/8 mile training track in darkness in preparation for their first starts ( his first -starters went 4-4 that summer) or following a clocker to the window to see what he bet ( works in Illinois at that time were so phony---my 2nd trainer once worked a horse in 1:13 and the clockers said they would put us down for 1:20 but that's another story) to becoming a dyed-in-the-wool handicapping numbers cruncher on my computer. Sometimes I really do miss those old days.

Jake, all of these references bring back memories of similar situations when I was young and green in the 60s and 70s.I guess this stuff was going on all over the place.Clockers, working horses in the dark,etc. Funny stuff. Jogs the old memory.

[Lockitup1x]

What is the best way to incorporate trainer stats / info into handicapping a race?

[str]

What is the best way to incorporate trainer stats / info into handicapping a race?

Very good question.
I have no problem saying that most trainers have a specialty.That is not to say that they can not train any kind of runner but let's be real, certain horses are going to play to a trainers strength. Some trainers train sprinters better than others. Some Grass better, or distance better, etc. The racing form shows sprint/route and vise versa stats and 60+ days of rest , etc. These are very important to follow. Some trainers excel at having a horse ready to explode first time back off a layoff. Others like to put less stress on them in the morning and hope that the horse wins first back off of 6 months but if they get tired , it is O.K., they will be better next time out.
Find the trainers strength based on info from % of winners of previous horses in the same situation. This could also be trainers off a win, raising a horse up or down in company, first time starters, turf to dirt, and vise versa first time lasix, first off a claim, etc.You won't find a ton of trainers with solid leans in a certain direction but you will definitely find some at each track .
Play horses that play in to that strength or play against horses that fall in to that trainers weakness. I would think that the racing form will have all this info but you might need to find which PP package suits these types of stats.If they are a little extra to purchase, I would say that it is money well spent.
Best of Luck.

[mattd83]

Good stuff in this thread. Thanks to str and JakeLc for their detailed info.

I'm from Dallas and I often go to Lonestar Park. I've always wished I could get in good with a couple of the old timers I always see around there. Who knows how much they win/lose but I always see those guys cashing huge tickets...and they always seem to be happy. Not sure why I'm always hesitant to talk to'em.

[str]

Good stuff in this thread. Thanks to str and JakeLc for their detailed info.

I'm from Dallas and I often go to Lonestar Park. I've always wished I could get in good with a couple of the old timers I always see around there. Who knows how much they win/lose but I always see those guys cashing huge tickets...and they always seem to be happy. Not sure why I'm always hesitant to talk to'em.

Don't be. Walk up to them and start a conversation. Ask them a question . There area lot of older guys that would be happy to talk to you .
I never ran a horse at Lonestar . It was fairly new when I left and quite far away from Md. .
If you ever have a question, let me know. I will try to help any way I can.
Best of Luck.