Horse Racing questions and answers

[Dark Horse]

Great explanation, again! Many thanks. I closely studied the tape with your comments, and was able to see -for the first time- the change of lead legs going into the turn. That must sound funny to those who have known this for years, but I can assure you it looks like magic when you've never seen it. lol

You mentioned the inexperience of Big Brown. Is that more widespread these days with horses running far fewer races than in the old days? Never knew that horses could start to drain so much mental/emotional energy during a race after something goes wrong (guess they're not all Afleet Alex - a personal favorite). I saw the ear pinned back and the horse clipping another horse.

The loose shoe is shown at the 1:02 mark of this video, an interview with Desormeaux:



What a nightmare of a race for Big Brown. Hard not to feel sorry for him after seeing this race in detail.

On a sidenote, since I mentioned Afleet Alex, was his acrobatic ability to recover from stumbles and near disaster something extremely rare? Or is the ability to deal with and recover from the (wildly) unexpected something that a trainer can recognize early on, or develop in a horse?

[str]

Great explanation, again! Many thanks. I closely studied the tape with your comments, and was able to see -for the first time- the change of lead legs going into the turn. That must sound funny to those who have known this for years, but I can assure you it looks like magic when you've never seen it. lol

You mentioned the inexperience of Big Brown. Is that more widespread these days with horses running far fewer races than in the old days? Never knew that horses could start to drain so much mental/emotional energy during a race after something goes wrong (guess they're not all Afleet Alex - a personal favorite). I saw the ear pinned back and the horse clipping another horse.

The loose shoe is shown at the 1:02 mark of this video, an interview with Desormeaux:



What a nightmare of a race for Big Brown. Hard not to feel sorry for him after seeing this race in detail.

On a sidenote, since I mentioned Afleet Alex, was his acrobatic ability to recover from stumbles and near disaster something extremely rare? Or is the ability to deal with and recover from the (wildly) unexpected something that a trainer can recognize early on, or develop in a horse?

That is the first time I ever saw that interview. It is also the first time I saw the break from that angle. Big Brown DID leave the gate and go right for the first step or two causing Kent to take a hold of him. I did not realize that. He said that the plan was to go to the lead. Going on what I saw and the angle that I saw it, it seemed to me that taking hold of Big Brown at the gate was the plan. Anyway, that did not cost him, it was the running off and getting on heels that cost him IMO.
The lack of experience these days can certainly cost these horses a chance to win. You have to remember that just like people, they are all wired a little differently. Some learn faster than others, some are more high strung, etc. Inexperience will cost some horses more so than others. That's just the way it is.
When speaking to the draining of energy, that is also on a horse by horse basis. Again, they are all different and will handle things or not in there own way .
As for the ear pinned , it was not that he had his ears pinned . That is usually a sign of a determined effort if they are running or anger . Really depends on the circumstance and if the individual usually does that. What I saw was one ear pinned and the other ear 1/2 way forward. That is a sign of confusion, not both ears pinned.
The sprung shoe in all probability occurred when he came in close quarters with the horse laying second. It also could have happened leaving the gate by the two horse at the first step or two. I say this because many times the right front shoe is stepped on by a rival horse and as their shoe slides down Big Brown's outer portion of his hoof, it can grab the top portion of the shoe and dislodge it. Big Brown also could have done it to himself when he was checking so badly early on. Who knows? It almost assuredly happened early on. The discomfort of that could have made Big Brown hesitant to stride out fully but that is somewhat of a reach . There is no way of knowing that and plenty of horses have run very well and, or won with a sprung shoe similar too that. I envisioned a shoe barely hanging on and with most of the nails out, when you first described it. What he had was by no means nothing and I really want to emphasize that . It was a legitimate problem to have to deal with and there is no way I would say that it did not matter. I can't say it enough, different horses react differently to these types of things. Just no way to know for sure.
What Afleet Alex was able to do in the Preakness was unbelievable! I would have to think that he was a very agile and athletic horse. There is no way a trainer can teach that. Most horses would not have been able to recover from that the way he did. It has nothing to do with how fast he was or how good he was. I have had 10K horses that were outstanding athletes in comparision to other horses who were better than they were.They might have been better but they were not as purely athletic.( Hope that makes sense.) What Afleet Alex pulled off was amazing!

[str]

I thought I would try and help out on what I saw in regards to the thread close by named " Race #3 at Indiana Downs was very fishy". If you have a minute, google Indiana Downs and race replay will be the 3rd or 4th choice. Click on it and go to the calender and click on the 21st and then race#3. All the problems start when they turn for home.

Here is my take:

Breaking down the ride from the top of the stretch:

The horse turns for home and starts to lug in( 4:05 point of the tape). The jock has the stick in the right hand. Mistake # 1. With no horse outside of you and plenty of horse left, one of the only ways you might lose is if your horse starts to lay all on the inside horses. If this horse has done this in the past , the mistake is even worse. Having the stick in the left hand would not have prevented the horse from lugging in but it would have been there when needed and allowed the rider to get much more out of the horse.
The next problem occurred at the 4:12 point. At this point, the horse apparently reacts to the riders hands yanking on the reigns with much force.The rider 's hands come up off the mane of the horse It looks like the horses head goes up and it's ears go forward for a second( confusion or pain in it's mouth from the pressure on the bit). The horse immediately shy's from that and goes outward. This is clearly seen at the 1:23 point. The severity of that two handed yank cost any forward momentum for at least 6 seconds or roughly a 1/16th of a mile. The horse levels out and is able to be slightly asked to run for the last 70 yards or so ( inside the 1/16th pole) but it is way too late. Jock taps the horse once with the right hand but at that point it is over.
I have no idea of who the rider was but as far as I am concerned that jock is too weak to be able to control a horse that wants to lug in, can not switch sticks very well if at all, lost what little strength he had in his right arm while trying to straighten the horse out ( only reason to pull on the horse with both hands so severely) and being blunt about it, just isn't very good. Understanding that it is Indiana Downs and the jockey colony is probably thin on talent anyway, having a better than most rider is of the utmost of importance IMO. I think that there is a solid edge to be had at lesser tracks in terms of riders.
I do not think that there was any larceny in the heart of the rider. Too me, the jock was simply over his head in terms of what was required to get the job done. The horse looked like he had a big chance darn near all the way around.
That was a tough beat . Had I been able to see the type of bit on the horse, it would have maybe answered the question as too how often this horse does this. Of course, I do not want to assume that the trainer is any good and only the jock is weak. Depending on these factors, a change of equipment is probably in order. Change the bit to a Moyers bit which will give the jock plenty of protection from lugging in or out and slapping a set of blinkers on that horse will not only make it run straighter but also help lower it's head that is carried a little high as it is. The shadow roll it wears ( fuzzy nose band) is on to help keep it's head down but being all in the horses mouth is making the head go up. The horse is no world beater but can win. If these things are added , and, or if the rider is switched, this would be a play back horse for me.
Hope this helps you guys!

[str]

I remember always watching the crowd staring at the T.V. and rooting for horses that are obviously out of gas but still in the race at the top of the stretch. (If you ever pass a race take a minute to watch a large group rooting together at the track.) It's Fascinating!
If you want to get a handle on how much horse a jockey has left, simply watch their hands. Early on, most riders will have there hands down near there crouch as they try to relax there horse. Even jocks on the lead will get there hands back after establishing their position. As they hit the 3/8s pole and start making there moves, the further down the neck of the horse the jocks hands are, the more horse they have. The closer the riders hands climb up the horses neck towards the horses ears, the less horse they have left.

So next time your horse turns for home in front, check the rider's hands and if they are still well down the neck, you have a big shot from there to cash your ticket.
Also, watch to see if your horse in front switches back to there right leg as the lead leg . Without using both during a race, they will tire out. Similar to a boxer only punching with one arm. Many stopping speed horses have trouble switching back to there right lead when they turn for home. One of the biggest reasons they stop. If they switch back to there right lead and the jockeys hands are down the neck and still, you can probably start walking to the window.
Best of Luck.

[dlew2k]

Entering a Maiden race

How does a trainer decide to enter a first timer in a Maiden claimers or straight maiden race other than it's pedigree, buying price... . What tangibles do you use?

[str]

How does a trainer decide to enter a first timer in a Maiden claimers or straight maiden race other than it's pedigree, buying price... . What tangibles do you use?

The first thing to look for is where the horse is training. If a horse is at a major circuit, it makes no sense whatsoever to run in a MSW( maiden special weight) as a 2 or 3 year old unless the horse has shown he/she can really run( excluding pedigree and cost). They will get trounced. Because these young horses have trained in sets of 2,3, or 4 at a time both galloping and working , a trainer usually has a good feel for who is fast, who is slow and who is better than who . Every now and then, a young horse won't have the light bulb go off until they have run once or even twice but that does not happen very often when speaking to pure ability. That helps separate the young horses in a trainers mind. Conformation or potential leg problems will also factor in if applicable.
Following a trainers record with first-ers is key. A guy like Anthony Dutrow is as good with first-ers as anyone. Why? Because not only is he a tremendous horseman that has a full awareness as to how to prep a firster but he also takes the no nonsense approach of wanting to run these horses where they can win and earn money right away. If a horse is only worth 20K in Tony's mind , he is happy to get 20K for him. Most trainers would opt to run for 20K . Tony will run for 15K , win and if the horse gets claimed , he has 20K+ and it's on to the next horse. That is a very business like , fresh , matter of fact way to run a stable. There are a ton of guys that don't want to lose the horse and possibly " look bad" if the horse goes on and earns more. That is dumb in my book but plenty do it. Some trainers also do not have the guarantee that the horse will be replaced in their barn by the owner and that prevents them from being aggressive.
The reason I said major tracks earlier is because at a track like Charles Town for instance, it might take a month or 6 weeks to be able to get in to a maiden race of any kind with all the maidens that try to race there. Because so many of the trainers there still use races as preps for fitness, for the first race or two some trainers just want to run. Therefore, they will run for any price higher than they feel the horse is worth, just to run. ( Never really understood that logic but I see it there all the time. It speaks volumes as to the overall knowledge and or the ability to make payroll of the trainer ).
Switching over to Maryland as an example, if you have a 4 year old, from January until usually early April, you only have 2 choices. Md. 10K( +/-) or MSW . Because these 4 year olds are SO BAD in most cases( not necessarily a horse that has been away a long time or a first-er that did not have a chance yet), the true value of those horses is so low that , for the difference in purse money , it might be worth running in the MSW instead of the claimer. Most of those horses are really only worth a % of the win purse. Once they win, they will be dependent on winning nw/2 and nw/3. Once those are gone, it is usually game over for those with very limited ability unless they move to a more inferior track. Very few can win an open claiming race.
From a betting angle, this might sound confusing but it has been a proven angle for a long time. Every April or thereabouts, the maiden races flip over to 3 year olds and up instead of straight 3 year olds and straight 4 year olds. When this happens, here is what usually takes place:
In MSW races the 3 year olds usually dominate the 4 and up horses. That is because the actual value of these horses talking in terms of Maryland ( again, this might not apply to older first-ers or long layoff horses) is around 40K or more as a three year old, and if projecting forward, maybe 25K as a future 4 year old, vs. maybe 10K as a 4 year old if they have not won in ten starts let's say when they were three. The difference in pure ability is huge and usually the less experienced, less developed 3 year olds can overcome that.
But... when you go down to the claiming 10K maidens the tables turn. A 4 year old running for 10K might be worth 6K or 7K . Why? Because that is all that they will be able to earn ( net) by winning 2 races. ( Unfair to say they will only win 1 but also a reach to say they WILL win 3.) . A 3 year old running for that price with 8 months to go , therefore being able to run against only 3 year olds, has the same value. They might only win 1 or they might win three. So it is also safe and fair to say they will probably win 2. The conclusion is that they are of same value and as a result, betting on the 4 year old more seasoned and stronger and more developed horse makes more sense than playing the 3 year old doesn't it? Yes. I see it as having the jv team play against the varsity. Few if any will play in college but both teams have maybe a couple. If it's "apples to apples" in ability the 17-18 year old varsity will probably beat the 14-15 year old jv handily.
Next time you have a chance and it is April, May or maybe still this month but it's getting late, go to the paddock and look at the physical difference between the 3 year olds and the 4 year olds in the maiden claimers. Some of the 3 year olds are so skinny in width across there chest( front view while they walk towards you) compared to the older horses that it looks almost unfair. Their muscle tone is often night and day. Same thing with there shoulder and butt muscles. So if their ability and value are the same , doesn't it almost seem unfair? A lot of times it is, and the wrong horse could be favored.
This angle of 3 year olds being better than 4 year olds early in the year also applies to "a other than allowance races" in Maryland as well as other places and "2 other than allowance races".
In the nw/2 and nw/3 cheaper claimers early in the year the 4 year olds usually are beating the 3 year olds.
Do remember that this does not hold true all year. The 3 year olds start to catch up by mid summer and the better horses have won and moved out of the particular condition thus leaving the inferior horses behind. The cycle repeats itself every January.
Hope that helps.

[scratbandit]

Thanks for all the help in your analysis as I have learned a ton.

[sq764]

What percentage of trainers do you think are clean across the sport?

[str]

Thanks for all the help in your analysis as I have learned a ton.

Your quite welcome.
I hope it helps.

[str]

What percentage of trainers do you think are clean across the sport?

I can not speak to harness racing. I know nothing about it.

As to Thoroughbred Racing:
It would be unfair of me to speak in terms of all across the U.S.A. and ridiculous to speak about other parts of the world. There are so many places that I have never been to especially minor tracks off the east coast , that talking in broad strokes about all those places would be mere talk, with nothing to back it up. I can however speak to Maryland racing as well as most tracks up and down the east coast in the time lines of 1972-2001.That is where and when I will address your question.
I see your question and assume you are asking about a percentage of honest trainers. Too me , there are 2 categories of dishonest that would be needed to be talked about. Wanting to deceive the public by stiffing horses and eventually letting them run to cash a ticket would be one (probably 1972-1984) and using performance enhancing drugs to gain an edge in which to win would be the other. (1985-2001). Not that cashing tickets went completely away in the 90s but the corruption took on a major shift in thought process from where I saw things. Let's start with the first one.
The nature of the game fuels speculation of cheating every time a horse or jock does ANYTHING that seems out of the ordinary. The thread about the bad girl rider at Indiana Downs had several people implying fix.Now everyone is entitled to their opinion but what I saw was a weak, bad rider showing the world just how weak and bad she is. However I do understand the plight of the gambler. Show me a game involving money and prediction, and I will show you corruption. That simple. Helloooo Wall Street as well as racetracks and sports in general.
Of the roughly 300 licensed trainers in Maryland there was one that I am sure did this. Strictly to cash a ticket. I would assume 3 or 4 others dabbled with it but one guy was a glutton for it. His horse would run terrible for 5-6 races and then he would jump up and try to run well. Funny thing is, he lost many more times than he won and I sure as hell knew nothing about it beforehand nor did more than a handful of people I would assume. It wasn't like this guy was a great trainer. Too me, he stunk. He would win 4 or 5 races a year. Most were legit. He cashed a couple of times but plenty of times his 20-1 bum on paper got slammed down to 3-1 late and ran like crap. As far as I was concerned, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Charles Town and Penn. Nat. had several, at least, doing this I would have to think. I saw several guys with too many funny results for it to be a coincidence. Remember, Maryland was a more viable place to race back then. It was bigger in stature by a wide margin than C.T. or Penn. Back then, a C.T. winners share of many purses was 1,000 bucks to the winner. Low purses really did and I would think still do play a role in people wanting or thinking they need to cheat. I would be very surprised if at least 10-15 trainers at each of those tracks ( assuming 300 trainers per track) did not try to play games at those small places back then whether it be with just one horse that they had or several that they had. I think that guessing numbers less than that would be naive on my part. As I have said before, all any trainer has to do is be patient if they want to try and cash a ticket. With all the crazy things that happen in races, it's just a matter of time before you will be in a spot to run a horse back that looks terrible on paper in their last few starts for reasons that simply occurred instead of trying to blatantly stiff a horse. Or a horse that has run poorly and when you add blinkers, they explode in the morning. With a barn full of horses , there is damn near always something that happens. So my answer in % would have been about 3-5% depending on the track. Problem with a % is if most guys have 2 horses and try to cheat but one guy has 30 horses and tries to cheat , the actual number of attempts goes way up. The people I felt did this all had horses in single digits.

The performance enhancing problem was FAR worse. I plan on doing a lengthy write up on this subject but I want to wait until August or so before I write it. Most will understand the timing by then. I promise you I will . I will say this. It has gotten much more under control than it was in the mid to late 80s and 90s and even when I left in 2001 it was still a problem. It was way out of hand in my opinion and some of my other posts have eluded to that. So as to not duck the question, I would say that in the nineties , in Maryland, 10% of the trainers were taking any edge they possibly could with drugs. (Again I will state that Ped's was one on a short list of reasons as to why I walked away from the game). This was not an edge to beat the public, it was an edge to beat there competition( like Me!). And when they got caught, it did not seem to really matter. It was unfriggin believable! People were getting away with all sorts of crap and because when they got caught, it was a slap on the wrist, more people went in that direction. Those % had to go up at smaller tracks so my guess at those places would be 15%. That is due to the fact that the caliber of horseman was weaker across the board at lesser tracks and therefore trainers were more dependent on Ped's. But 10% in Maryland is no guess. That's 30 out of 300 and I am fine with that answer. Sad part of that is that some of those 10% were large outfits.
Unlike the first group, being at a minor or major race track had nothing to do with the use of PEDs. Hell, they damn near ran out of refrigerated box cars in New York saving all the urine tests that Ocsar Barrera's horses had given! Just like in all sports , things got crazy and the non cheaters paid the price.
With the best available testing techniques in place today these numbers have come way, way, down. Again, as with other sports, you still have some people trying to cheat but not nearly as many. It's getting better than ever IMO but I doubt any sport will ever be 100% clean , be it horses or anything else.

[mr.inpak]

there is an entry 1a wins the race while the 1 runs 3rd the 6th place finisher lodges objection against 1a the stewards take the 1a down place him 7th question does the 1 come down also or does he get placed 2nd

[str]

there is an entry 1a wins the race while the 1 runs 3rd the 6th place finisher lodges objection against 1a the stewards take the 1a down place him 7th question does the 1 come down also or does he get placed 2nd

Unless the rules have changed recently or a certain jurisdiction goes by a rule not consistent with what I always raced under, the horse that runs third would be put up to second. If however the stewards felt that the horse that ran third worked in tandem with the 1A, or felt that the one aided the 1A in winning , the stewards could choose to take both horses down.
Because the entry might be owned by different owners, taking the horse that finished 3rd down would be unfair to that particular owner. While they are together as a betting entity, they are separate while running ( purse wise) unless the stewards deem they colluded against others within the race to gain an edge.

[str]

Animal Kingdom update:

I saw where Animal Kingdom has now been diagnosed with a slab fracture in his hock. That is a far cry from what was originally thought. As previously stated, sometimes it takes a few weeks for a fracture to fully surface on an x ray. That is not uncommon at all. The fact that it is now a slab fracture changes many things. A screw will need to be inserted for him to be able to try and run again. That procedure , along with what the surgeon actually sees first hand in the joint when operating will go a long way towards determining the racing future of Animal Kingdom.
Slab fractures are typically seen in knees of front legs of horses. Slab fractures in hocks are rare. When you see a horse go down in a Heep that has fractured his knee in the race, it is almost always because the fracture was a slab. It compromises the structure and stability of the knee. Bearing excessive wait and force while fractured is what leads to a catastrophic breakdown. The leg simply can not support the pressure. After surgery and rest is complete , the immediate area will eventually become stronger than ever before but the trainers view from this point forward , at least my view if he was mine from this point forward will be one of skepticism towards the hock. Any further setback would put Animal Kingdoms racing future in jeopardy.
The term " slab fracture" strikes fear in the hearts of trainers. It is nothing to sneeze at. As my kids might say, slab fractures suck!
Let's hope that Animal Kingdom makes it back to the races and can perform well. It would be good for the game as well as the horse. Graham Motion will do everything in his power to make it happen and as I have said before, he is a very accomplished horseman. My gut tells me that while I was all but certain he would be back in 6 months with the initial diagnosis, I feel as though his chances of racing again have now dropped to 50-50 at best. Let's hope he makes it back.

[Dark Horse]

str, just a quick question about ways to stimulate a horse. I'm reading 'Cajun Racing', about the bush tracks etc. Lot of jockeys came from there. Great characters. I had to laugh when I learned they used to cheat by stuffing a pepper up a horse's butt. The horse would run as if on fire. Is pepper on the official list of drugs, or is that something so far off the scale that they might still try it?

Too bad about Animal Kingdom. He's on my wall of fame, along with other longshots that came through for me. Funny how that creates a bond. Makes it harder when they get injured or die much too soon. Couldn't believe it when Tuscan Evening just dropped dead last year.

What kind of trainer where you personally? I watched the documentary 'The First Saturday in May' last week and was surprised by how many different types of trainers there were. I had the stereotype expectation that they were all horse whisperers, but that was not my impression after the movie. It did seem clear, though, that the more intelligent trainers had the better results.

[essayyweb1]

I just love horse racing..when i saw your thread is about horse then i just start to read each and every thing..
Dissertation Writing

[str]

str, just a quick question about ways to stimulate a horse. I'm reading 'Cajun Racing', about the bush tracks etc. Lot of jockeys came from there. Great characters. I had to laugh when I learned they used to cheat by stuffing a pepper up a horse's butt. The horse would run as if on fire. Is pepper on the official list of drugs, or is that something so far off the scale that they might still try it?

Too bad about Animal Kingdom. He's on my wall of fame, along with other longshots that came through for me. Funny how that creates a bond. Makes it harder when they get injured or die much too soon. Couldn't believe it when Tuscan Evening just dropped dead last year.

What kind of trainer where you personally? I watched the documentary 'The First Saturday in May' last week and was surprised by how many different types of trainers there were. I had the stereotype expectation that they were all horse whisperers, but that was not my impression after the movie. It did seem clear, though, that the more intelligent trainers had the better results.

Thirty years ago the only way to prevent horses from chewing off bandages or chewing stall doors ,etc. was to use pepper. It was a red pepper that was very potent. Nothing like what we use for food. This stuff was so nasty that when applied to bandages(mixed with water or glycerin), the horse that would otherwise chew them off , would not bother them. I am pretty sure that this type of pepper is no longer used. I will find out soon as I am planning to go to Saratoga in late July or early August and spend a few days with a very good friend of mine and his family. I have not stepped foot in a barn at the track since I retired , so I will see whats up then.
Those geniuses you read about must have heard that this idea was worth doing. It is pathetic, but I am not at all surprised. Bad horseman do really stupid things. I suppose that putting pepper there might get some horses to run better but I would have to think that far more would run poorly.It would have to be put there at least 30 minutes before the race. Most horses would become uncomfortable right away, thus expending a ton of energy prior to running.
There were all sorts of these stupid ideas that would float around . As a beginner , these types of things would peak some interest but as an assistant trainer for the leading trainer in the world at the age of 19 and 20 and as a trainer, starting when I was 21 things like that were not worth mentioning too me. I had no use for them.
As to what kind of trainer I was? I think that most trainers are a clone to some degree of who they were taught by. I never had a huge amount of money behind me in terms of how much was spent on each horse. I was primarily a claiming trainer. I did have allowance horses and the occasional stake horse but most of those were bought via the claim box.
Having no family horse background, I just went to work at the track and worked from the bottom up. As a trainer, I taught myself to study other trainers and tried to figure out their individual patterns. I would then work to exploit their weaknesses by claiming their horses when the time seemed right. Having learned how to manage a horse and care for a horse from my mentor and learning how my competitors thought, I felt as though I had an edge on the game, as I played it.It worked fairly well. I really enjoyed the gambling aspect of the claiming game. Not betting, but managing claimers. It was like playing cards. Sometimes you bluff and sometimes you don't. It was a game within the game. And being stabled in Maryland, the claiming game was tougher there in the 70s and 80s than anywhere else in the country.
I was not a horse whisperer guy but I did know an awful lot of things about a race horse that most trainers did not. My mentor's knowledge and my willingness to learn all I could no matter how many hours a day it took , allowed me to have a decent career. And yes, the more intelligent trainers were the ones that had the better results. Of course, that changed in the mid to late 80s when drugs started to run rampant.

[str]

I just love horse racing..when i saw your thread is about horse then i just start to read each and every thing..
Dissertation Writing

I do realize that I am by no means an accomplished writer. I hated English class in high school and used to sneak the morning telegraph in to the class and try to read it instead of listening. My friends who were writers for newspapers in the business would surely cringe if they were to read this.
There are two things that I have provided for readers. One thing is a glimpse of "a view of the race track" that most never have a chance to see. The other is the truth. For many, a glimpse of that, in to any sport, is rarer still.

[str]

Claiming First time starters:

Anyone that claims a firster has some sort of background with or on the horse. If it is a filly, her pedigree will in all probability have a value , so the risk is usually less than the actual amount of the claim. If it is a colt or gelding, chances are the person claiming it either saw the horse at a sale and had an interest at the time( maybe the under bidder or someone that had a solid interest in the horse), realizes a turf angle that should have a solid chance of working, has worked another horse of theirs against that horse out of the gate where the opposition in the morning is random, or has a 3rd person( horse) tie to the horse. Claimed horse beat horse A in a workout and horse A beat my horse B. My horse B is worth 40k so it seems reasonable that claimed horse is worth significantly more. Also seen where guys will claim a firster for 30k because they went for 60k+ at a sale. I never really understood the logic of that one.
There is always a reason, that usually makes at least some sense. It can be rewarding but it is a dangerous game. I did it a probably a dozen times with mixed results.

[robmpink]

Animal Kingdom update:

I saw where Animal Kingdom has now been diagnosed with a slab fracture in his hock. That is a far cry from what was originally thought. As previously stated, sometimes it takes a few weeks for a fracture to fully surface on an x ray. That is not uncommon at all. The fact that it is now a slab fracture changes many things. A screw will need to be inserted for him to be able to try and run again. That procedure , along with what the surgeon actually sees first hand in the joint when operating will go a long way towards determining the racing future of Animal Kingdom.
Slab fractures are typically seen in knees of front legs of horses. Slab fractures in hocks are rare. When you see a horse go down in a Heep that has fractured his knee in the race, it is almost always because the fracture was a slab. It compromises the structure and stability of the knee. Bearing excessive wait and force while fractured is what leads to a catastrophic breakdown. The leg simply can not support the pressure. After surgery and rest is complete , the immediate area will eventually become stronger than ever before but the trainers view from this point forward , at least my view if he was mine from this point forward will be one of skepticism towards the hock. Any further setback would put Animal Kingdoms racing future in jeopardy.
The term " slab fracture" strikes fear in the hearts of trainers. It is nothing to sneeze at. As my kids might say, slab fractures suck!
Let's hope that Animal Kingdom makes it back to the races and can perform well. It would be good for the game as well as the horse. Graham Motion will do everything in his power to make it happen and as I have said before, he is a very accomplished horseman. My gut tells me that while I was all but certain he would be back in 6 months with the initial diagnosis, I feel as though his chances of racing again have now dropped to 50-50 at best. Let's hope he makes it back.

This sucks for his connections. Is your personal opinion that the other jockey did that on purpose in the belmont? Not give the horse an injury, but cut him off?

[str]

This sucks for his connections. Is your personal opinion that the other jockey did that on purpose in the belmont? Not give the horse an injury, but cut him off?

Without seeing the head on replay it is darn near impossible to see the true run for the first ten strides. The Stewards did suspend Maragh for 7 days for careless riding leaving the gate. That tells me that the head on was quite revealing .
The problem with drawing a conclusion though is that the Stewards have to dictate how the jockeys ride for everyday. If they do not suspend him, the jockeys can become more aggressive leaving the gate and that creates problems. If they do suspend him, they control the aggressiveness. So sometimes a statement must be made in order to keep the whole jocks room in line for the coming weeks . Being a "ship in" rider and not an everyday rider there( I assume he isn't) also makes it easier to give the rider days. It sets a tone that when you come to N.Y. it's our( Stewards) game and our rules.( Have you ever noticed that if you follow the same track everyday, that there will not be any DQ's for maybe a week and then there might be 2 or 3 in one day. That is NOT a coincidence. The Stewards need to keep the level of aggressivness under control and when things start getting rough out there, they need to step up the suspensions in order to keep things under control. If not, the inmates will start to run the asylum).
Stewards are a bit like umpires. They allow less or more from track to track. Typically , leaving the gate is not a place where an aggressive riding suspension is given without it having merit. That makes your question a tough call. I doubt that he actually tried or planned to impede Animal Kingdom, as he was going to settle back anyway. There was no way he would have known that what took place was going to happen. Too me, he just tried to ride a tight , aggressive race and wanted to intimidate any horse he could with that outside position.
From an earlier post within this thread, I spoke about having "the box". Being the outside speed and putting pressure on the more inward horses. That was probably what he was trying to do but in trying to do that, caused a major problem for Animal Kingdom. You would have to think as to why a jock would want to shut off a horse leaving the gate that wants to drop back anyway.
If there is a plan to bother him, why not float him wide at the 3/8s pole or shut him off going in to the far turn. Either of those moves would in all probability be much more difficult to overcome than a length or two leaving the gate. Because of that thought process, I don't think that there was any premeditation involved.
That's how I saw it.
Great question!

[robmpink]

Without seeing the head on replay it is darn near impossible to see the true run for the first ten strides. The Stewards did suspend Maragh for 7 days for careless riding leaving the gate. That tells me that the head on was quite revealing .
The problem with drawing a conclusion though is that the Stewards have to dictate how the jockeys ride for everyday. If they do not suspend him, the jockeys can become more aggressive leaving the gate and that creates problems. If they do suspend him, they control the aggressiveness. So sometimes a statement must be made in order to keep the whole jocks room in line for the coming weeks . Being a "ship in" rider and not an everyday rider there( I assume he isn't) also makes it easier to give the rider days. It sets a tone that when you come to N.Y. it's our( Stewards) game and our rules.( Have you ever noticed that if you follow the same track everyday, that there will not be any DQ's for maybe a week and then there might be 2 or 3 in one day. That is NOT a coincidence. The Stewards need to keep the level of aggressivness under control and when things start getting rough out there, they need to step up the suspensions in order to keep things under control. If not, the inmates will start to run the asylum).
Stewards are a bit like umpires. They allow less or more from track to track. Typically , leaving the gate is not a place where an aggressive riding suspension is given without it having merit. That makes your question a tough call. I doubt that he actually tried or planned to impede Animal Kingdom, as he was going to settle back anyway. There was no way he would have known that what took place was going to happen. Too me, he just tried to ride a tight , aggressive race and wanted to intimidate any horse he could with that outside position.
From an earlier post within this thread, I spoke about having "the box". Being the outside speed and putting pressure on the more inward horses. That was probably what he was trying to do but in trying to do that, caused a major problem for Animal Kingdom. You would have to think as to why a jock would want to shut off a horse leaving the gate that wants to drop back anyway.
If there is a plan to bother him, why not float him wide at the 3/8s pole or shut him off going in to the far turn. Either of those moves would in all probability be much more difficult to overcome than a length or two leaving the gate. Because of that thought process, I don't think that there was any premeditation involved.
That's how I saw it.
Great question!

I think Maragh is a primary NYRA rider with possibly him moving to Monmouth for the meet. All I remember him from is NYRA and Monmouth. Nowhere else.

Bump on the thread anyway. A lot of good insight here and worth the read.

[JakeLc]

He began his career in Florida and spends his winters down there now. He has a younger brother riding down there.

[str]

I think Maragh is a primary NYRA rider with possibly him moving to Monmouth for the meet. All I remember him from is NYRA and Monmouth. Nowhere else.

Bump on the thread anyway. A lot of good insight here and worth the read.

I don't pay any attention to the jockey colonies anymore. I had no idea if he was an everyday rider or not.
I'll be heading up to Saratoga soon hopefully to see some old friends. I hope to spend several days there. Once I get back , I owe this thread a right up in regards to the subject of trainers using performance enhancing drugs. I will do this in early August after I get back.
Thanks for the bump Rob. It's much appreciated! Haven't had any questions lately . I hope your gout is under control. Having arthritis myself, I feel your pain.

[str]

Uncle Mo worked 3/8s and galloped out a 1/2 this morning. They are trying to get him ready to run on August 27th , going 7/8s at Saratoga. If he is able to train forward without any bumps in the road, he has a decent chance of making the race.
From what I have read, Todd Pletcher has said that "Uncle Mo does not require a tremendous amount of training to get ready". Some horses are indeed like that.
If he makes the race on the 27th from a pure fitness point of view, it is obvious that he will be short. That however will have very little bearing relative to how well he runs. Horses that do not require a ton of bottom under them are considered horses that " run well fresh" or "easy to get fit". They can come back after a layoff and do very well first time out. With that comes the worry that unless the horse is carefully placed in his second and third race back, and given ample time to recover( there is no set time that is considered ample, each horse has it's own time line), the horse can come up flat in it's next start. One would have to think that if any horse in the country would be closely monitored between races, it would be Uncle Mo.
The biggest test for Todd Pletcher will not be getting Uncle Mo ready to run in his first start back. In comparison to what lies ahead, that will be easy. It will be when Uncle Mo runs well in his first start back and the condition book starts driving the training schedule . Once owners and public pressure as well as the appearance of possibly being "too fragile" to be at the top of the list of horses someone would want to breed to, a trainers best judgment can succumb to the overwhelming demand of others in regards to the when, where, and at what distance a horse will be asked to preform.
I hope for Uncle Mo's sake that Todd Pletcher will be able to do what he is paid to do and make all of Uncle Mo's decisions based on what he feels is the right thing to do. That however is many times not what ends up happening. Just ask Billy Turner, the trainer of Seattle Slew. His unbelievable training masterpiece was undone in seemingly an instant by owners that somehow thought they were smarter. It happens a lot but thankfully not always. In Uncle Mo's case, if he is successful in his return, and I would think that he would be, we will just have to hope that Todd Pletcher continues to drive the bus and the others just sit back and enjoy the ride. Let's hope so.

[JakeLc]

About a month ago ( I think it was on HRTV) they had a program that profiled the career of Seattle Slew and both sides obviously blamed the other. Watching it I really had to side with Billy Turner.

[zebra58]

About a month ago ( I think it was on HRTV) they had a program that profiled the career of Seattle Slew and both sides obviously blamed the other. Watching it I really had to side with Billy Turner.

good show it was on hrtv 2 part show i missed the 2nd episode, hope they re-air it soon

[str]

About a month ago ( I think it was on HRTV) they had a program that profiled the career of Seattle Slew and both sides obviously blamed the other. Watching it I really had to side with Billy Turner.

You picked the right side Jake. I am not defending Turner because he was a trainer. Only because he was trying to do the right thing for the horse and the right thing for the game. The owners had no clue what they were doing . I did not see that series and am wondering what the owners could have possibly said to justify there actions. They made so many mistakes you could not count them all. Slew's ability hid many of those errors. It was a shame.

[mr.inpak]

what was the biggest show payoff that youve seen when the bridge jumpers went down

[JakeLc]

I can't remember specifics of what the owners said but they seemed to blame Billy's drinking.

[str]

what was the biggest show payoff that youve seen when the bridge jumpers went down

I wish I could recall with more accuracy exactly which ones were biggest but I can not. The one that left the biggest impression on me was at Pimlico. I can't recall the horses name but the rider was definitely Nick Shuk. It was a stakes race , almost positive it was 6 furlongs. I am pretty sure it was the Flirtation Stakes for 3 year old filly's. The horse was 1-9 and finished way back. Never a factor. I am thinking that the highest of the 3 show prices was like 120.00. That could be wrong. The other 2 were like 55.00 and 77.00 or something like that.I think it was just before I started training on my own or just after I started, so mid 70s. Reason I remember the parts that I do is that it made such an impression on me that someone had just lost sooooo much money. Also, Nick Shuk who was a very good rider was well into his heyday by then and not nearly as good anymore. At least that is what I thought. He always rode with white gloves in every race. Never really got that but it was his trademark.
I probably saw one that paid as much or more but I just don't recall.
Thanks for the question.

[str]

I can't remember specifics of what the owners said but they seemed to blame Billy's drinking.

Yeah , that figures. That would be so unfair but fits there M O for sure.
Billy had a drinking problem, yes. That problem was far worse after he was fired than before IMO. He did a masterful job with Slew. After winning the triple crown the owners forced Turner to run him against his will in California in July in the Swaps stakes. Slew was beaten 3 times in his life in 17 starts. A nose, a neck and 16 lengths. As the form indicates forcing Slew to run in the Swaps against Turners wishes proved to be a huge mistake. Turner was fired after that.
Having only trained on my own for 1 year, even I was shocked by the owners decisions. All the trainers were talking about it before the race ever ran. Everyone knew that it was a terrible decision. Even me and I was just a pup.
Here is his form. You be the judge.

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/dads/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-10.png[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/dads/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-11.png[/IMG]

http://seattleslew.com/images/dailyformracerecord.jpg

[JakeLc]

the old adage " the most dangerous person on the backside is an owner with a condition book"

[dugbug15]

str,you mentined in a previous post that you had an arthritic condition.i researched google for a spice called turmeric.i knew this spice had benefits for cancer patients as it supposedly kills bad cells,and,does not destroy good cells.any way ,the site i found claims that the compound in turmeric,called curcumin is effective in easing joint pain,and,imflammation associated with arthritis.i hpoe this helps you.i am not in the medical or herbal profession in any way at all,but,am just curious about herbal remedies.it's my way of trying to pay you back for all the wonderful,and,informative information that you have provided to all of us at the form.

p.s. the site also warns people with congestive heart disease,gallstones,obstructive jaundice,active bilious colic,or,extremely toxic liver disorders should consult with their doctors before taking this remedy on.this is the site i found by googling:

www.nutritional-supplement-educational-centre.com/turmeric-benefits

good luck to you and all. p.s.s. if centre is not right,try center

[dumbmoney]

Hey str,
Thanks a lot your posts. I find your insights very helpful. I had a couple of questions regarding trying to set up how a race will play out. How do track conditions effect the race, specifically horse running styles or post positions. I saw before you said that closers have a harder time in the mud because of the debris flying up at them. That makes sense and isn't something I really thought of before. Is there anything else that comes into play in the mud with respect to running styles? Does it make it harder/easier on certain post positions? Or how would you expect a yielding turf vs a dry turf to impact a race for example. Is it just a question of looking at past performances to see which horses have an affinity for those conditions or are there more general truths like closers have a harder time in the mud?

The other question I have is post positions in general and how they play into the race. Can you talk about different post positions in general and how they benefit or detract from a horses running style? I would think that a speed horse would have an easier time closer to the rail because it can get out in front easier, and it would be less of a benefit for a closer that is going to run behind the pack in the beginning anyway. Is that accurate? Are there any other post positions or relative positions (ie. a speed horse inside of another speed horse vs a speed horse inside a closer) that you find important in trying to see how a race will play out. I know each race has to be looked at individually and there aren't going to be many blanket rules, but I was just looking for some generalities out there that I may be missing

Thanks again for all your help. It truly is appreciated.

[str]

str,you mentined in a previous post that you had an arthritic condition.i researched google for a spice called turmeric.i knew this spice had benefits for cancer patients as it supposedly kills bad cells,and,does not destroy good cells.any way ,the site i found claims that the compound in turmeric,called curcumin is effective in easing joint pain,and,imflammation associated with arthritis.i hpoe this helps you.i am not in the medical or herbal profession in any way at all,but,am just curious about herbal remedies.it's my way of trying to pay you back for all the wonderful,and,informative information that you have provided to all of us at the form.

p.s. the site also warns people with congestive heart disease,gallstones,obstructive jaundice,active bilious colic,or,extremely toxic liver disorders should consult with their doctors before taking this remedy on.this is the site i found by googling:

www.nutritional-supplement-educational-centre.com/turmeric-benefits

good luck to you and all. p.s.s. if centre is not right,try center

Thank you Dug. I really appreciate it. I have Rheumatoid arthritis. It is something that my mom had and it passed on to me. The doctor recommended I take Methotrexate. It is low dose chemo, probably similar to what you have written about. After doing research on it and , hold on to your hat, talking to one of my dearest friends who was my horse vet for decades, I refused to take it. Apparently this drug is floating around the backside and trainers are requesting it's use. Dr. ***** saw that the long term affects were so disturbing that he would only administer it if the owner signed off on any long term affects that will occur because of it. My feeling is that if he is concerned about long term problems on horses, why the hell would I take it. He said don't. I agree. Having a tremendous disdain for all drugs, and even more disdain for drug companies and what they do to people, I can not put myself in a situation where I am a guinea pig for someones profit margin. If these companies would find cures instead of ways to live with diseases, and rely on their pills, people would not suffer but as these companies learned when doctors developed a vaccine for polio, there's no money in that! I find it curious that nothing can be cured except of course getting a boner. I will hop off the soapbox now.
As a result I take drug that has been around for 50 years and it seems to control it fairly well. I can't play all the sports that I used to be able to play, at least not very well anymore and not very often, but I am so much better off than so many others that have diseases that I consider myself lucky.
Thank you again for your kind words. I do this because when you care so much for something and have so much to share and see others that care as well about it, you want to pass along as much information as you can. At least that is how I feel.
Talk to you guys later.