SBR lines archive - question for SBR people

Data · 05-30-08, 11:48 PM

I have not looked at that product in the last couple of months. The last time I did I was checking out NBA historical lines. I found games missing on almost daily basis. I also found that the line history does not match the posted opening line. Due to these reasons I found that at that moment the product matched its price. Due to each data source deficiencies I had to gather historical data from many sources that include SBR, Donbest, Covers, TheRX and Jimfeist. I found that SBR product has a potential to become the best as it has the most comprehensive line histories but it was still in its infancy.

Mudcat · 05-31-08, 08:41 AM

Very good response. Thank you.

I appreciate that you are talking about NBA lines. I didn't mean to limit my questions to MLB since I expect to be looking at other things eventually. So yeah, comments on any and all lines/sports are appreciated.

You say that the SBR product did not match the posted opening line. I get what you're saying about using multiple sources but is there a specific one you found most reliable specifically for opening lines?

Mudcat · 05-31-08, 09:42 AM

I wasn't expecting to have follow-up this quickly but here I am. I think something more significant than just a font change must have happened on June 28th. In about 5 minutes I discovered 2 errors.

(I am working backwards through the 2007 season so these errors are prior to the change.)

The problem is with final scores. Now they could all be wrong for all I know. I have no way of telling from looking at a jumble of numbers if the scores are right. But these two games show finals of 0-0.

I didn't see this at all from Sept. 30 back to July 1. And then suddenly I see it twice in 2 days. It's easy enough to double-check scores but I am thinking more about the big picture. It does look like something changed and it makes me extra leery about all that earlier data.

Can any SBR folk comment?

Data · 05-31-08, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Mudcat

You say that the SBR product did not match the posted opening line.

No, that is not what I said. While using SBRForum historical lines, lets look at the page that lists the results and the lines for a given day (Page A). If we proceed to the odds history for a given game (Page B) then we can see the lines sorted by the soprtsbook and then sorted by the time stamps. The line with the earliest time stamp should be considered the opening line. That line on Page B not necessarily matches the opening line on Page A.

I get what you're saying about using multiple sources but is there a specific one you found most reliable specifically for opening lines?

Donbest. The problem is, if Pinny opened before CRIS and did that with a different line, you have no way of knowing that. If you define "the opening line" as "CRIS' opening line" or "Pinny's opening line" then Donbest delivers.

Sean · 05-31-08, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Mudcat

I wasn't expecting to have follow-up this quickly but here I am. I think something more significant than just a font change must have happened on June 28th. In about 5 minutes I discovered 2 errors.

(I am working backwards through the 2007 season so these errors are prior to the change.)

The problem is with final scores. Now they could all be wrong for all I know. I have no way of telling from looking at a jumble of numbers if the scores are right. But these two games show finals of 0-0.

I didn't see this at all from Sept. 30 back to July 1. And then suddenly I see it twice in 2 days. It's easy enough to double-check scores but I am thinking more about the big picture. It does look like something changed and it makes me extra leery about all that earlier data.

Can any SBR folk comment?

Hey Mud ...

Are you looking at SBR Odds ... http://www.sbrodds.com/scoreboard/baseball.html or the MLB odds & scores on SBR Forum ... http://www.sbrforum.com/Scores/MLB+Odds/20070628.aspx ?

I'm assuming that we're looking at the SBR Forum page as opposed to the SBR Odds' scoreboards. I'm currently looking at both to ensure the integrity of our historical data.

In the meantime, one thing to note ... when games are rained out or otherwise postponed, they will sometimes show up in our system (especially in the older data) as a 0-0 score, since we never received any scoring data.

This looks like the issue on June 28, 2007 ... SBR Forum shows:
907 St Louis Cardinals 0
908 New York Mets 0
and, cross referencing to MLB.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/scoreboard/20070628.html) we see that particular game was postponed.

Hope this helps while we continue to dig through past data to ensure its accuracy.

Thanks!

cobra_king · 05-31-08, 10:39 AM

Depending on the sport, SBR uses a specific book for their opener and closer. For example for MLB and NHL, SBR uses 5 dimes as their opener and closer, even though 5D opens about 6 hours later than the Big 3. But for NBA, they use Pinnacle. This creates slightly more work, but it's easily combated just by not using the opener on "Page A" and just checking the time stamps on page B.

As for the 0-0 games, no need to worry about incorrect scores when an actual score is listed. They are correct. Unless it's NHL, then if the games go into a shootout than SBR shows a tie game, so you'll need another source to find the shootout winner.

cobra_king · 05-31-08, 10:41 AM

Sean,

It's been a few months since i've spent any significant time on SBR historical lines, so i don't have the dates in front of me, but there is no question that games that were played show as 0-0 in some instances.

Sean · 05-31-08, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by cobra_king

Depending on the sport, SBR uses a specific book for their opener and closer. For example for MLB and NHL, SBR uses 5 dimes as their opener and closer, even though 5D opens about 6 hours later than the Big 3. But for NBA, they use Pinnacle. This creates slightly more work, but it's easily combated just by not using the opener on "Page A" and just checking the time stamps on page B.

As for the 0-0 games, no need to worry about incorrect scores when an actual score is listed. They are correct. Unless it's NHL, then if the games go into a shootout than SBR shows a tie game, so you'll need another source to find the shootout winner.

Actually, it looks to me like SBR Forum currently uses 5Dimes for openers/closers on all sports. SBR Odds defaults to Bookmaker for openers/closers but can easily be customized by the individual user to display openers/closers for any of the 20+ books listed on the service.

As for the NHL scores showing a tie when there's been a shootout, would you show me an example. I'm looking at both SBR Odds Hockey Scores and SBR Forum NHL Scores and don't yet see that issue. Quite possible that I'm missing something though.

Thanks for the help and the feedback!

Sean · 05-31-08, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by cobra_king

Sean,

It's been a few months since i've spent any significant time on SBR historical lines, so i don't have the dates in front of me, but there is no question that games that were played show as 0-0 in some instances.

Again, unsure if we're looking at the scores from the SBR Forum odds/scores pages or the scoreboards on SBR Odds, but I have no doubt that some of the older data or displays might have some errors. We've worked hard over the past several months -- and continue to do so -- to improve the speed, stability and accuracy of our odds and scores. However, if and when we do have a glitch, please don't hesitate to point out the specifics. Feedback from guys like you is what helps us continue to improve.

Thanks!

Mudcat · 05-31-08, 01:40 PM

Thanks guys. I feel better about what I have been doing with regard to the opening lines. I am happy right down to my underoos.

As for the baseball games showing 0-0 scores, it occurred to me they might be rainouts or whatever, however I also saw that in each case, it appears that a winning side and total are circled (on PAGE A as we're calling it). So that threw me off.

No problem. I'm all better now.

Mudcat · 05-31-08, 01:43 PM

Just by complete chance I am looking at what might be another error on June 28, 2007. Rot # 905/906 shows Philly winning 8-7 but the runline of PHI-1.5 is circled which I assumed meant that was the winning bet. And a quick glance down the page shows the same situation with rot # 911/912. Going back a few pages it looks like a consistent situation. The game winner is indicated but not the runline winner.

Anyway, I don't really consider those circles in my data collection; it is just something I noticed.

I hope it doesn't seem like I just came here to bitch. I am extremely happy with what I am finding in those archives.

cobra_king · 05-31-08, 03:52 PM

Sean,

First off, don't get me wrong i appreciate SBR Odds and historical data, and all the good work that you guys do. I never want to come across as bashing so i apologize if i do. And yes it is correct that NBA defaults to 5Dimes as well. I don't wager on hoops so from my limited data gathering in regards to baskets, i definately mispoke in regards to that.

As for NHL examples of SBR's historical data showing shootouts as tie games. I guess i should have been clearer as to what i meant. The game results will show a tie score, though the winner can be identified by the circle around the winning line. I guess i don't understand why the shootout goals aren't counted in the final tally in the game results when almost all wagers made on hockey include the shootout goal.

Again thanks for all the work you guys do with SBR Odds and it's appreciated that you are continually attempting to upgrade and improve the service.

Sean · 05-31-08, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by cobra_king

As for NHL examples of SBR's historical data showing shootouts as tie games. I guess i should have been clearer as to what i meant. The game results will show a tie score, though the winner can be identified by the circle around the winning line. I guess i don't understand why the shootout goals aren't counted in the final tally in the game results when almost all wagers made on hockey include the shootout goal.

Again thanks for all the work you guys do with SBR Odds and it's appreciated that you are continually attempting to upgrade and improve the service.

I see it now cobra ... thanks! And, as always, we appreciate any and all feedback ... we do know the difference between constructive criticism and "bashing" ... so, no worries in that regard.

So, looks like we have a miscommunication between SBR Odds' data and the SBRforum scoreboards ... see attached screen shots below. SBR Odds looks to be showing the shootouts and correct scores, but for some reason, that shootout data is apparently not being passed to the forum pages. We'll definitely look into that.

Thanks for the heads up!

Attached Files

Mudcat · 06-01-08, 10:39 AM

I think maybe cobra is too shy to ask but it would also be great if you guys could change all "Carolina" references in your NHL databases to "Hartford."

That'd be fabulous. Thanks.

Mudcat · 06-01-08, 01:35 PM

Follow-up question relating to MLB:

Is there any quick cross-reference about pitching changes that occur after the opening line is posted. Like sometimes a line will move a lot and I don't know whether it's a natural move or the result of a pitching change.

Sean · 06-01-08, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Mudcat

Follow-up question relating to MLB:

Is there any quick cross-reference about pitching changes that occur after the opening line is posted. Like sometimes a line will move a lot and I don't know whether it's a natural move or the result of a pitching change.

Mud ... on SBR Odds, when we're notified of a pitching change, the new pitcher is indicated in RED. However, this feature is only enabled on the lines viewer ... we don't currently have anything on historical scores that indicates whether or not there was a pitching change. Perhaps by next season ...

MrX · 06-01-08, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Mudcat

Follow-up question relating to MLB:

Is there any quick cross-reference about pitching changes that occur after the opening line is posted. Like sometimes a line will move a lot and I don't know whether it's a natural move or the result of a pitching change.

I never found a solution to this problem (though, to be honest, I didn't look very hard).

Mudcat · 06-01-08, 11:16 PM

Yeah it's a tough one.