Are My Pride Heroes Washed Up? Or Were Just Never That Good?

[ttrace35]

This is one question that can never be answered for sure. But I'm sure many of you have an opinion. Mirko, Wanderlei, Rampage,Nog. By the time they got to ufc, they were past their prime. But let's be real, everybody except rampage has looked horrible. Rampage has been unimpressive although still winning. What would they have done in the Ufc at that time. Where the ufc fighters from back then any good? I wonder how they would have done against the ufc stars like tito, chuck, belfort, couture etc?

[kmdubya]

Testing was never a strong suit over in Pride (and still in Japan for that matter). Most of the Pride stars were great fighters, but coming over to fight in the UFC required them to leave a few training practises over there.

I'm not saying, I'm just sayin'.

[Wrecked]

Weren't they allowed to juice in Pride?

[Dad]

Arent the UFC fighters from the same time frame washed up now too? Age has caught up with them.

[ttrace35]

Weren't they allowed to juice in Pride?

Maybe that's why the fights were more exciting

[Wrecked]

Maybe that's why the fights were more exciting

It would also explain the "lack of motivation" shown in the ex-pride fighters.

[sirchadwick1]

It's a lot of factors really... While some of the guys are still relatively young in their 30's... they have a lot of wear and tear on their bodies and in MMA years are close to the end. Your average UFC fighter is MUCH better today than they were 5 years ago (level of competition). The juice most likely comes into play as well. Look at how pumped a lot of guys were back in the Pride days compared to today. You still have some guys on HGH, TRT, etc. but some are completely clean under UFC testing and they've lost their mojo. Rampage is one guy that looks like he still has some left in him. While I think Bones takes the fight, it should still be a good one. And Belfort's wheels haven't completely fallen off yet either. I fully expect him to clobber Akiyama.

[Chairib]

Testing was never a strong suit over in Pride (and still in Japan for that matter). Most of the Pride stars were great fighters, but coming over to fight in the UFC required them to leave a few training practises over there.

I'm not saying, I'm just sayin'.

[cheeese]

I think it's more about the competition being much stronger in general by the time they got to the UFC. Flat out fighters just got better while their skillset stayed the same.

[Chairib]

Some are good but they're all ridiculously over hyped fighting in Japan. Unfortunately some of those guys started to believe their own hype and never bothered to properly train for the differences in technique between the ring and a cage.

Cro Cop's probably the best example of this.

[rocky mattioli]

i think it`s a little bit of all of the above.....i think the difference in rules may have been a factor...guys like rua were famous for stomping guys when they were down and drop kicking a downed opponent`s head into the second row....

they weren`t better than ufc fighters....but i think that the fights may have been a bit more brutal...and because of that maybe some old pride guys may have had a few more real miles on them than the odometer indicated....

the evolution of mma is amazing...seeing a guy like jon jones literally toy with rua is a scary thing....

lord only knows what the next decade will bring...

[darko3131]

Age caught up to them, it happens to everyone. Hopefully one pulls off the upset soon (page, nog, cro cop)

[Nick The Greek]

Age is #1 factor. It happens to everybody in every sport.

[v1y]

Tons of factors, and the answer is probably a little bit of everything. A little washed up, a little overrated, stronger competition now.

[Chairib]

Age is #1 factor. It happens to everybody in every sport.

Yeah, this is total horseshit.

Dan Hederson is 40 and Fedor is 34. Fedor not only had a size/weight advantage on Dan but he was YOUNGER than him.

I've seen virtually every fight of each of these guys and Dan Henderson without a doubt has been through more wars than Fedor ever has.

[GoldRush7]

I think it definitely has to do with the evolution and popularity of the sport

[Chairib]

i think it`s a little bit of all of the above.....i think the difference in rules may have been a factor...guys like rua were famous for stomping guys when they were down and drop kicking a downed opponent`s head into the second row....

they weren`t better than ufc fighters....but i think that the fights may have been a bit more brutal...and because of that maybe some old pride guys may have had a few more real miles on them than the odometer indicated....

the evolution of mma is amazing...seeing a guy like jon jones literally toy with rua is a scary thing....

lord only knows what the next decade will bring...

Some fights were brutal, but I think that speaks more to the matchmaking that took place in Pride, as many of them were very one sided affairs designed to push a certain name. It's hype in place of actual competition and it's something that became very prevalent after they got rid of works. Fedor was their golden boy and outside of three fights, two with Nog and one with Cro Cop, he didn't exactly get into a lot of wars. Hell even the Nog and Cro Cop fights were decisions.

Head stomps are flashy but Pride didn't allow elbows. The lack of elbows made it easier for guys in Pride to get away with subpar guards and/or grappling. It's a lot harder to defend against an opponent when he can use elbows, and without proper fundamentals with the MMA guard you're going to get busted up. Cro Cop just looked f@cking clueless defending against Gonzaga's elbows when it hit the mat.

And look at your typical Pride fighter's use of footwork and angles in cage, it's virtually non-existent. Bad footwork, as well as a lack of angles with your stand-up game is fine in a Pride ring which is only 20x20. In the Octagon which measures 32 feet across, it's a completely different story. First and foremost, the larger fighting space requires you do understand angles, specifically how to cut your opponent off in the cage. Cro Cop never figured it out, it's why his feared high kick was pretty much neutralized. Everyone knew he'd only throw that right leg, and all you had to do was circle away from it and you were fine. Wanderlei sort of figured out that rushing straight into an opponent would work against lower competition. But against another fighter who understood footwork, had a better reach, or had better mechanics that kind of strategy would just set you up to get countered and/or KO'd with a left hook. It's why you saw Wanderlei change up his style against Bisping and Franklin. And I reckon, it's why he avoided the rematch with Vitor in Rio at all costs and agreed to fight Chris Leben. Unfortunately he completely misjudged Leben's power, as well as actual size, and decided to go back to his old style.

It took Shogun two fights in the UFC before he understood it. Watch that fight against Chuck, his footwork and striking has never looked that crisp ever. I think Shogun grew and became a better version of himself after the fights with Forest and Coleman, and he was light years ahead of the kind of fighter he was in Pride. Still as good as he looked against Chuck and even with all the improvements he's made, it's still never going to be enough against a guy like Jon Jones. I didn't take long for Shogun to figure out Jones had him beat in virtually every area of the fight game. It's clear as day if you watch Shogun's face during the fight. He wasn't scared of losing, he was scared of getting KO'd.

Jones is beatable but I think it's going to take another fighter with strong wrestling fundamentals to do it.

[Poppa Catfish]

Yeah, this is total horseshit.

Dan Hederson is 40 and Fedor is 34. Fedor not only had a size/weight advantage on Dan but he was YOUNGER than him.

I've seen virtually every fight of each of these guys and Dan Henderson without a doubt has been through more wars than Fedor ever has.

It boggles the mind how people try and reason away his losses.

Hero worship is pretty sad...

[ttrace35]

Some fights were brutal, but I think that speaks more to the matchmaking that took place in Pride, as many of them were very one sided affairs designed to push a certain name. It's hype in place of actual competition and it's something that became very prevalent after they got rid of works. Fedor was their golden boy and outside of three fights, two with Nog and one with Cro Cop, he didn't exactly get into a lot of wars. Hell even the Nog and Cro Cop fights were decisions.

Head stomps are flashy but Pride didn't allow elbows. The lack of elbows made it easier for guys in Pride to get away with subpar guards and/or grappling. It's a lot harder to defend against an opponent when he can use elbows, and without proper fundamentals with the MMA guard you're going to get busted up. Cro Cop just looked f@cking clueless defending against Gonzaga's elbows when it hit the mat.

And look at your typical Pride fighter's use of footwork and angles in cage, it's virtually non-existent. Bad footwork, as well as a lack of angles with your stand-up game is fine in a Pride ring which is only 20x20. In the Octagon which measures 32 feet across, it's a completely different story. First and foremost, the larger fighting space requires you do understand angles, specifically how to cut your opponent off in the cage. Cro Cop never figured it out, it's why his feared high kick was pretty much neutralized. Everyone knew he'd only throw that right leg, and all you had to do was circle away from it and you were fine. Wanderlei sort of figured out that rushing straight into an opponent would work against lower competition. But against another fighter who understood footwork, had a better reach, or had better mechanics that kind of strategy would just set you up to get countered and/or KO'd with a left hook. It's why you saw Wanderlei change up his style against Bisping and Franklin. And I reckon, it's why he avoided the rematch with Vitor in Rio at all costs and agreed to fight Chris Leben. Unfortunately he completely misjudged Leben's power, as well as actual size, and decided to go back to his old style.

It took Shogun two fights in the UFC before he understood it. Watch that fight against Chuck, his footwork and striking has never looked that crisp ever. I think Shogun grew and became a better version of himself after the fights with Forest and Coleman, and he was light years ahead of the kind of fighter he was in Pride. Still as good as he looked against Chuck and even with all the improvements he's made, it's still never going to be enough against a guy like Jon Jones. I didn't take long for Shogun to figure out Jones had him beat in virtually every area of the fight game. It's clear as day if you watch Shogun's face during the fight. He wasn't scared of losing, he was scared of getting KO'd.

Jones is beatable but I think it's going to take another fighter with strong wrestling fundamentals to do it.

I agree with 90% of what you said. The only thing I disagree with is about the bad matchmaking. Pride had some evenly matched wars. Don't forget about the tournaments. That had nothing to do with matchmaking. Rampage having to fight chuck lidell, then having to fight wanderlei, in the same night, is classic warrior shit.

[Chairib]

You know ttrace35 while we may not agree on everything this was a really interesting discussion, thank you for starting it.

[FlashinLeather]

Some are good but they're all ridiculously over hyped fighting in Japan. Unfortunately some of those guys started to believe their own hype and never bothered to properly train for the differences in technique between the ring and a cage.

Cro Cop's probably the best example of this.

Age is #1 factor. It happens to everybody in every sport.

these two combined together, age and lack of motivation.

[Vaughany]

Obviously the main think is just their age and that they are weathered from all the beatings and injuries they've encountered. And they have to combine these challenges with facing the new generation of MMA fighters which is different as well - you've got freak natural athletes like Schaub, Mitrione, and OSP transitioning from football to MMA and evolving at a rapid pace with obvious improvements in every fight. You've got the movement from technique and heart to physical edge. The Schaub/Nog fight will prove this...

[ttrace35]

You know ttrace35 while we may not agree on everything this was a really interesting discussion, thank you for starting it.

[Mr Handicapable]

All I know is Fedor and Wanderlai the Axe Murderer were the best in the world for several years. I guess you could make a case for Lidell or whoever in the UFC back then but I take the Axe Murderer in his prime. Fedor and atleast 4-5 guys in Pride could spank Tim Sylvia and Arlovski from the UFC any day of the week! Who knows why Hendo is still going while Fedor/Wanderlai/Crocop are done? I think someone on here brought up a good point about Pride being all about the fighting spirit and less technique. Fedor has been HORRIBLE w/technique in these last few beatdowns and its ended his career!

[Vaughany]

All I know is Fedor and Wanderlai the Axe Murderer were the best in the world for several years. I guess you could make a case for Lidell or whoever in the UFC back then but I take the Axe Murderer in his prime. Fedor and atleast 4-5 guys in Pride could spank Tim Sylvia and Arlovski from the UFC any day of the week! Who knows why Hendo is still going while Fedor/Wanderlai/Crocop are done? I think someone on here brought up a good point about Pride being all about the fighting spirit and less technique. Fedor has been HORRIBLE w/technique in these last few beatdowns and its ended his career!

Hendo is probably still going because he is fundamentally a wrestler and by chance has a granite chin!

[rocky mattioli]

Some fights were brutal, but I think that speaks more to the matchmaking that took place in Pride, as many of them were very one sided affairs designed to push a certain name. It's hype in place of actual competition and it's something that became very prevalent after they got rid of works. Fedor was their golden boy and outside of three fights, two with Nog and one with Cro Cop, he didn't exactly get into a lot of wars. Hell even the Nog and Cro Cop fights were decisions.

Head stomps are flashy but Pride didn't allow elbows. The lack of elbows made it easier for guys in Pride to get away with subpar guards and/or grappling. It's a lot harder to defend against an opponent when he can use elbows, and without proper fundamentals with the MMA guard you're going to get busted up. Cro Cop just looked f@cking clueless defending against Gonzaga's elbows when it hit the mat.

And look at your typical Pride fighter's use of footwork and angles in cage, it's virtually non-existent. Bad footwork, as well as a lack of angles with your stand-up game is fine in a Pride ring which is only 20x20. In the Octagon which measures 32 feet across, it's a completely different story. First and foremost, the larger fighting space requires you do understand angles, specifically how to cut your opponent off in the cage. Cro Cop never figured it out, it's why his feared high kick was pretty much neutralized. Everyone knew he'd only throw that right leg, and all you had to do was circle away from it and you were fine. Wanderlei sort of figured out that rushing straight into an opponent would work against lower competition. But against another fighter who understood footwork, had a better reach, or had better mechanics that kind of strategy would just set you up to get countered and/or KO'd with a left hook. It's why you saw Wanderlei change up his style against Bisping and Franklin. And I reckon, it's why he avoided the rematch with Vitor in Rio at all costs and agreed to fight Chris Leben. Unfortunately he completely misjudged Leben's power, as well as actual size, and decided to go back to his old style.

It took Shogun two fights in the UFC before he understood it. Watch that fight against Chuck, his footwork and striking has never looked that crisp ever. I think Shogun grew and became a better version of himself after the fights with Forest and Coleman, and he was light years ahead of the kind of fighter he was in Pride. Still as good as he looked against Chuck and even with all the improvements he's made, it's still never going to be enough against a guy like Jon Jones. I didn't take long for Shogun to figure out Jones had him beat in virtually every area of the fight game. It's clear as day if you watch Shogun's face during the fight. He wasn't scared of losing, he was scared of getting KO'd.

Jones is beatable but I think it's going to take another fighter with strong wrestling fundamentals to do it.

some good points...but consider who the ufc champs were when guys like fedor,big nog,rua and rampage were at their peaks in the organization....guys like sylvia and matt hughes,tito and evan tanner..by today`s standards,they all look a tad weak......in all honesty,mma has really evolved beyond these guys....and they`ve gotten older.....theres no denying it`s all factored in to some extent....

henderson and couture are anomalies....

[Squareguy]

It boggles the mind how people try and reason away his losses.

Hero worship is pretty sad...

Who was arguing that? They were talking about age being a "huge" factor, which we all know it has more to do with how durable your body is than anything else.

[Mr Handicapable]

Who was arguing that? They were talking about age being a "huge" factor, which we all know it has more to do with how durable your body is than anything else.

Exactly....Hendo wasn't taking punches from 270 lb. roid freaks like Fedor was. Win or lose...Fedor always brought it which is more than I can say for most of the UFC guys! I'm an old married guy and no Fedor/no Showtime equals no live fights for me. The UFC PPVs are for young single guys....they can have their boring GSP fights! GSP won't even fight Anderson Silva because he's too big? Fedor would fight a 600 lb. gorilla if the Russian mob told him to.

[SHALOMbagelBOMB]

dumbest thread ever...shogun anderson rampage and nogueira all became champs in the ufc with new rules and no octagon experience...when chuck went to pride he got destroyed.

every ufc fighter who was relevant in 06 is now irrelevant...meanwhile pride fighters like anderson henderson shogun and rampage are all still in the
mix...

besides gsp and bj theres not one ufc fighter from 06 who is still relevant....and dont act like tito and hughes are still relevant because if u consider them relevant then so are nog and wanderlei

[ttrace35]

dumbest thread ever...shogun anderson rampage and nogueira all became champs in the ufc with new rules and no octagon experience...when chuck went to pride he got destroyed.

every ufc fighter who was relevant in 06 is now irrelevant...meanwhile pride fighters like anderson henderson shogun and rampage are all still in the
mix...

besides gsp and bj theres not one ufc fighter from 06 who is still relevant....and dont act like tito and hughes are still relevant because if u consider them relevant then so are nog and wanderlei

Dumbest name ever. Bagel Bomb

[SHALOMbagelBOMB]

Dumbest name ever. Bagel Bomb

u wish u had my username...with ur mark munoz avatar with a tat on his neck

[ttrace35]

u wish u had my username...with ur mark munoz avatar with a tat on his neck

Mark munoz

[Chairib]

some good points...but consider who the ufc champs were when guys like fedor,big nog,rua and rampage were at their peaks in the organization....guys like sylvia and matt hughes,tito and evan tanner..by today`s standards,they all look a tad weak......in all honesty,mma has really evolved beyond these guys....and they`ve gotten older.....theres no denying it`s all factored in to some extent....

henderson and couture are anomalies....

Rampage and Rua both became better fighters in the UFC. Especially Rampage, his Muay Thai under Colin Oyama when he was in Pride was a complete joke. I mean, the complete lack of training and strategy when Rampage was in Pride was really really horrendous. Oyama never really worked with him on any basic fundamentals. There's noway a smaller fighter like Shogun would have even attempted the butterfly clinch with a larger fighter who even had some basics down.

Once Rampage embraced boxing as his primary stand-up style in the UFC he's become a far more dangerous fighter especially with that wicked left hook. Really, all you need to do is watch that rematch with Wanderlei. Silva came in and all Rampage had to do was throw that counter hook and Silva practically walked right into it.

I'm repeating myself but it's the same thing with Shogun. The amount of growth he made between the Coleman re-match and his fight with Chuck Liddell was truly extraordinary. He's never ever looked as good as he did in that fight with Chuck. Again his footwork, striking, and speed made him look a completely different fighter.

[kmdubya]

Especially Rampage, his Muay Thai under Colin Oyama when he was in Pride was a complete joke. I mean, the complete lack of training and strategy when Rampage was in Pride was really really horrendous. Oyama never really worked with him on any basic fundamentals. There's noway a smaller fighter like Shogun would have even attempted the butterfly clinch with a larger fighter who even had some basics down.

Once Rampage embraced boxing as his primary stand-up style in the UFC he's become a far more dangerous fighter especially with that wicked left hook. Really, all you need to do is watch that rematch with Wanderlei. Silva came in and all Rampage had to do was throw that counter hook and Silva practically walked right into it.

I agree that Rampage did become a better fighter, but I personally think it was a short lived window. He looked great fighting Chuck and Hendo. By the time he fought Forrest, he just didn't seem as dangerous. The Wandy fight I think had more to do with Wandy's decline as a fighter, compared to Rampage's abilities.

Probably more to do with his training (and lack of motivation for it). Just read he recently had his coach leave him. That does not look good for his upcoming fight against Bones. I'd say that fight will not go to the judges (Bones TKO or submission).

[SHALOMbagelBOMB]

[QUOTE=Chairib;10932894]Rampage and Rua both became better fighters in the UFC. Especially Rampage, his Muay Thai under Colin Oyama when he was in Pride was a complete joke. I mean, the complete lack of training and strategy when Rampage was in Pride was really really horrendous. Oyama never really worked with him on any basic fundamentals. There's noway a smaller fighter like Shogun would have even attempted the butterfly clinch with a larger fighter who even had some basics down.

Once Rampage embraced boxing as his primary stand-up style in the UFC he's become a far more dangerous fighter especially with that wicked left hook. Really, all you need to do is watch that rematch with Wanderlei. Silva came in and all Rampage had to do was throw that counter hook and Silva practically walked right into it.

I'm repeating myself but it's the same thing with Shogun. The amount of growth he made between the Coleman re-match and his fight with Chuck Liddell was truly extraordinary. He's never ever looked as good as he did in that fight with Chuck. Again his footwork, striking, and speed made him look a completely different

ur idiocy amazes me...shoguns and rampages best performances were against arona...shoguns performance against rampage and rampage against chuck the 1st time were those guys in their prime