Kampmann v. Sanchez

[FlashinLeather]

This is the problem with UFC judging. They need to switch to the one 10 minute round and the one 5 minute round (like Dream does and like Pride used to do). All these controversial decisions would be solved. Kampmann clearly won the fight, but under the UFC rules, it gave the beaten fighter the chance to win. One thing I'd like to point out, that first round should have been a 10-8. If anything, a draw should've been ruled. Anyways, another bad decision goes against the unpopular Danish kickboxer. Poor guy, should be fighting for a title.

On the other hand, I have to give props to Sanchez. Guys is a fukkin warrior, he never stops coming forward. I just think he got out-classed tonight.

I'm all for the changing of rules to make the UFC more like Pride but that first round was not a 10-8, if you look at fights where they have awarded a 10-8 rounds (which aren't too often) they are above and beyond what was shown in round 1 tonight. Dana and Rogan both said that how the UFC usually give out 10-8 rounds that Fitch should not have gotten one in the 3rd against BJ.

Edgar v. Maynard round one was a 10-8 round by UFC standards, and Kampman v. Sanchez was no where near that kind of beat down.

[ShogunRua]

Does anyone else think the first round could have been a 10-8? I mean, he completely demolished Sanchez's face and easily stuffed every single take down attempt. If that isn't a 10-8, I don't really know what is. Oh well, it was a great fight anyways. I just don't exactly agree with the decision.

[ShogunRua]

I'm all for the changing of rules to make the UFC more like Pride but that first round was not a 10-8, if you look at fights where they have awarded a 10-8 rounds (which aren't too often) they are above and beyond what was shown in round 1 tonight. Dana and Rogan both said that how the UFC usually give out 10-8 rounds that Fitch should not have gotten one in the 3rd against BJ.

Edgar v. Maynard round one was a 10-8 round by UFC standards, and Kampman v. Sanchez was no where near that kind of beat down.

They have given out 10-8 rounds not as bad as this in the past. He was completely dominated in every aspect of the fight, and his face was getting crushed time and time again. Just because Diego played it off better than anyone in the world could have, does not mean excessive damage wasn't done. Because (IMO) it clearly was.

[Poppa Catfish]

No, I don't think it is even remotely close to a 10-8. He was never close to finishing, and he never dominated. He easily took a 10-9 round based on his effective striking, I think that is all that can be said.

[stefan084]

In 3: Kamp 34-19 edge in total strikes landed but Sanchez had 17-14 edge in power strikes landed

Kampmann doubled Sanchez in total strikes landed 97 to 45 including 50 to 39 in total power strikes

Sanchez finished 1 of 15 in takedowns tonite.

No submission attempts for Sanchez

No knockdowns for Sanchez.

Im just sour grapes over this one despite getting to see a great fight because I had Kampmann by Decision and I feel like I lose so many questionable decisions and never get the benefit of any of them. Maybe its selective memory, maybe just variance. Maybe its the fact that Im comin off the Fukuda loss that Im jaded to this one, but I really think that decision was terrible.

its not sour grapes you were robbed--same type of thing when leonard garcia fights--doesn't matter if he's getting lit up on the feet the entire fight, if you're coming forward evidently that means you won

[Conan]

Awsome fight Sanchez won but his face deff lost

[sportsfanatic]

the fight could have gone either way. hardly controversial imo.

[Cap dat 4ss]

Couple of thoughts....

I agree with the majority here, I had Kampmann winning 29-28 but it was a close fight. These fighters have been told time and time again not to leave the fight in the judges hands, especially in such close fights. Really no surprise here.

I was quite surprised how well Kampmann defended the takedowns. I incorrectly foresaw Diego giving Kampmann some vicious GNP and I couldn't have been more wrong. Anyways, I think we will now see Kampmann vs. Penn. I am WAY more excited about that fight than this fight and I think most would agree. Should be a war!

The judging is what it is. Everyone knows how these fights are judged. They are scored round by round, not by the whole fight. This really does give the advantage to wrestlers like Diego. I believe it was the eventual takedown in round 3 that won this fight for Diego and he didn't even have him down long but he did advance his position, so points for Diego. This is nothing new but the UFC has nothing to do with it, it's the way NSAC has chosen to score the fights. Contact them and bitch and see where it gets you.

I don't believe there was a 10-8 round out of the bunch, at least by my definition of a 10-8 round.

Look forward to seeing Rua and Jones boyz... I can't let Rua at +$$$ slip away, will be the last time we see it if he wins!

[The HOFF]

These fighters have been told time and time again not to leave the fight in the judges hands, especially in such close fights.

I don't think this is a fair assessment. I just think the Judges need to get better. These are the best fighters in the world. Elite fighters are not going to be able finish every other elite fighter they face. The judging needs to be brought up to par. Telling them to not leave it in the hands of the judges is like saying a hockey team shouldn't let it go to a shootout, and should just win in overtime or regular time.

Anyway I had Kampmann winning rounds 1 and 2 and Sanchez winning round 3. Kampmann landed so many more clean shots, was more technical, and did more damage. As someone else eluded to, Sanchez benefited from the Leonard Garcia effect... wild looping punches that don't land but win you points. I think if the takedown in round 3 won that round for Sanchez, then the 6 takedown stuffs for Kampmann in the second round should have won him that round. Why is it a single takedown can win a round, but someone avoiding every takedown is worth nothing?

[teaserpleaser]

BJ is thinking about retirement trust me i'll bet you anything he wont fight Martin Kampmann he'll fight somebody who matters at welterweight like Kos, Alves, Loser of Gsp vs shields, A Fitch rematch hell even Diego again before he fights a guy who lost to Diego... BJ is about Legacy and fights that matter i doubt Joe Silva even has the balls to offer that fight He'd have to know BJ would be offended and turn it down. I know some of you think Kampmann is top 5 welterweight sorry hes not check this out...

[teaserpleaser]

Since 2006 Bj hasnt fought anybody who wasnt a ufc champion at some point or fought for a ufc championship belt 12 fights straight to be exact why the hell would he fight Martin Kampmann?? That guys not in the title mix. I'd be shocked if its announced he agreed to fight kampmann. He'd retire first instead of "waisting" his time on a fight that wont help his legacy.

[rocky mattioli]

I'm wondering if people still think Kampmann would beat BJ

just my opinion,but yep...at +200 i`d take a flyer on kampmann...i think that b.j.`s counter-striking style is more suited to a technician like kampmann...much more so than sanchez` "balls-to-the wall" style.....

kampmann/penn would be a highly entertaining technical fight...

also,i think theres a tendency for judges to overcompensate when a guy gets drubbed in a round and makes a comeback..happens in boxing alot...a guy gets brutalized in a round...has a decent bounce-back round...and because the guy looked finished,he gets more credit for what he did...

sanchez landed some shots that hurt kampmann in the second..excellent shots...damaging shots... i gave him the round...but he lost the 3rd...kampmann`s stamina suffered in the fight..was a big factor....but sanchez slowed down quite a bit in the 3rd,also...

those knees from kampmann haven`t gotten much mention...lots of damage done..seems like a takedown that lasts for seconds with no damage inflicted counts more than numerous damaging strikes and knees....some consideration has to be given regarding the scoring of "flash" takedowns that result in no real advantage

excellent fight...i really enjoyed it...but mma judging is still a work in progress...

again,congrats to sanchez bettors...the guy`s coulumes have definitely descended...hope his orbital isn`t broken...

[teaserpleaser]

You gotta love Dana - (from his twitter)

danawhite Diego won that fight for sure! Wow!!!
about 8 hours ago

[Cap dat 4ss]

I don't think this is a fair assessment. I just think the Judges need to get better. These are the best fighters in the world. Elite fighters are not going to be able finish every other elite fighter they face. The judging needs to be brought up to par.

Fair. But the judges are just following the scoring system, so it's not just the judges that need to be brought up to par but the entire scoring system. Here is how they score the fight.... After seeing this I believe more firmly that Kampmann won this fight. See bolded parts. (this is compliments of Sherdog)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Girljock
PLEASE notice the criteria....then you guys can bitch. EFFECTIVE AGRESSIVENESS. OCTOGON CONTROL......you guys need to know what the criteria for the judges is.....and NOT ASSUME you know how they judge certain aspects....as Octogon Control.

VIII. JUDGES

A. No judge will have a financial interest in any fighter he judges.

B. No judge will be a manager/trainer of any fighter he judges.

C. In a bout goes to it's full time limit, the outcome will be decided by a majority decision of
three, (3), MMAC judges.

D. A judge is accredited, sanctioned and selected based upon his character, experience, stature in the MMA world, knowledge of MMA systems and impartiality.

E. Judging Criteria
1. Judges are required to determine the winner of a bout that goes to it's full time limit based upon the following criteria:
-Clean Strikes
-Effective Grappling
-Octagon Control
-Effective Aggressiveness

F. Clean Strikes
1. The fighter who is landing both effective and efficient clean strikes.
2. There are two ways of measuring strikes:
-the total number of clean strikes landed (more efficient)
-the total number of heavy strikes landed (more effective)

G. The heavier striker who lands with efficiency, deserves more credit from the Judges than total number landed.
1. If the striking power between the fighters was equal, then the total number landed would be used as the criteria.
2. The total number of strikes landed, should be of sufficient quantity favoring a fighter, to earn a winning round.

H. Strikes thrown from the top position of the guard, are generally heavier and more effective than those thrown from the back.
1. Thus a Judge shall recognize that effective strikes thrown from the top guard position are of "higher quality", than thrown from the bottom.
2. The Judge shall recognize that this is not always the case.
However, the vast majority of fighters prefer the top guard position to strike from. This is a strong indication of positional dominance for striking.

I. Effective Grappling
1. The Judge shall recognize the value of both the clean takedown and active guard position.
2. The Judge shall recognize that a fighter who is able to cleanly takedown his opponent, is effectively grappling.
3. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter on his back in an active guard position, can effectively grapple, through execution of repeated threatening attempts at submission and reversal resulting in continuous defense from the top fighter.
4. A Judge shall recognize that a fighter who maneuvers from guard to mount is effectively grappling.
5. A Judge shall recognize that the guard position alone shall be scored neutral or even, if none of the preceding situations were met.(items 2-4)
6. A Judge shall recognize that if the fighters remain in guard the majority of a round with neither fighter having an edge in clean striking or effective grappling, (items 2-4), the fighter who scored the clean takedown deserves the round.
7. A clean reversal is equal to a clean takedown in effective grappling

J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities

K. Effective Aggressiveness
1. This simply means who is moving forward and finding success.(scoring)
2. Throwing a strike moving backwards is not as effective as a strike thrown moving forward.
3. Throwing strikes and not landing is not effective aggressiveness.
4. Moving forward and getting struck is not effective aggressiveness.
5. Shooting takedowns and getting countered and fended off is not effective aggressiveness.

L. Criteria Evaluation
1. Each judge is to evaluate which fighter was most effective. Thus striking and grappling skills are top priority.
2. Evaluating the criteria requires the use of a sliding scale. Fights can remain standing or grounded. Judges shall recognize that it isn't how long the fighters are standing or grounded, as to the scoring the fighters achieve ,while in those positions.
3. If 90% of the round is grounded one fighter on top, then:
-effective grappling is weighed first.
-clean striking is weighed next. If clean strikes scored in the round, the Judge shall factor it
in. Clean Striking can outweigh Effective Grappling while the fighters are grounded.
-octagon control is next (pace, place & position)

4. The same rational holds true if 90% of the round were standing. Thus:
-clean striking would be weighed first (fighter most effective)
-clean grappling second (any takedowns or effective clinching)
-octagon control which fighter maintained better position? Which fighter created the situations
that led to effective strikes?

5. If a round was 50% standing and 50% on the ground, then:
-clean striking and effective grappling are weighed more equally.
-octagon control would be factored next

6. In all three hypothetical situations, effective aggressiveness is factored in last. It is the
criteria of least importance. Since the definition calls for moving forward and scoring, it is
imperative for the Judges to look at the scoring first.

7. Thus for all Judges scoring UFC fights, the prioritized order of evaluating criteria is:
-clean strikes and effective grappling are weighed first.
-octagon control
-effective aggressiveness
M. Domination Criteria
1. A Judge may determine that a fighter dominated his opponent in a round. This can lead to a two point or more difference on a Judge's scorecard.
2. The definition of a dominating round is a fighter's ability to effectively strike, grapple and
control his opponent.
3. A Judge may determine a round was dominating if a fighter was adversely affected by one of the following:
-knocked down from standing position by clean strike
-by submission attempt
-from a throw
-from clean strikes either standing or grounded.

N. Judge's Scorecard Procedures
After each round:
1. each Judge will determine and record a score each round
2. a MMAC official will collect the scorecard after each round
3. the MMAC official will track and add each Judges score by round
4. If the fight goes the time limit, the MMAC official will add each Judge's scorecard and double check total
5. the fighter with the greater number of points wins the fight on each Judges scorecard
6. the fighter who won on the majority of the Judges Scorecards, wins the fight
7. the MMAC official will hand the decision to the PA announcer

O. Types of Judge's Decisions
1. If all three scorecards agree Unanimous
2. If two of three scorecards agree Split
3. Two scorecards agree and one draw Majority
4. two scorecards agree on draw Draw
5. all scorecards different Draw

IX SCORING SYSTEM

A. The MMAC and UFC have adopted a 10 point must system.
The Judge will use the criteria to determine a winner each round. The three step procedure per round is as follows:
-determine winner of round (can be draw)
-determine if winner dominated round
-fouls then factored in (subtract one point per foul from fighter)

B. Draws are again acceptable in MMAC events

C. Point Totals
1. two fighters who draw are given a score of 10-10
2. the fighter who wins a round is given a score of 10-9
3.The fighter who dominates a round is given a score of 10-8
(a score of 10-7 is possible for a dominant round)
4.For each foul a fighter commits, a point is subtracted. This deduction can change a winning round to a draw. 9-9

[Cap dat 4ss]

danawhite Diego won that fight for sure! Wow!!! about 8 hours ago

Interesting, I've always heard people at the event score it much differntly than those of us at home, maybe this is part of it. Maybe he's just trying to avoid a judging conspiracy to protect his product. Although he has been pretty outspoken against bad judging in the past. not sure what he saw though for him to feel that strongly about it.

[ttrace35]

There was a reason Diego had difficulty getting the takedown as well, Kampmann was backing up for the majority of the fight. People at my house thought Kampmann easily took the first, we thought the second was a toss up and could make an argument for either, but people were all leaning towards Sanchez, and the third Kampmann was content to run away and throw counters.

I will need to rewatch the fight, but from what I see Kampmann has no excuses, he got exactly the fight he wanted, he was up against a punching bag and he didn't press the action at all. I was down on Kampmann before, and once again this fight leaves me wondering who he can beat in the top 10. He is very slow on the feet and fairly poor on the ground.

I watched this fight 3 times and I can't understand what you guys are talkin about. Kampy won that 3rd round clearly. He was destroying sanchez in the third until he broke his had with 1:01 left. Even the post fight announcers were shocked. You need to watch the 3rd round again poppa.

[BIGDAY]

CANCHEZ BABY!!!!!! WoooooHoooooooooo !!!

That guy doesn't know how to stop. Canpman was basically running away from him in the second. WTF? Stand up and fight the whole round Kampman! Loser! HAHAHAHAHA

And my largest bet of the evening cashed so I guess I am slightly biased. lol

Have a good day boys.

[MadTiger]

Anyone who honestly, and I mean honestly, thinks that the judges screwed Kampmann should spend 5 minutes on an e-mail to the athletic commission, instead of hours here and on Sherdog.

[teaserpleaser]

I'm wondering if people still think Kampmann would beat BJ

i guess theres a first for everything, BJ has never lost to anyone that wasnt a UFC champ at some point in their careers... Think about how awesome that is, the kind of Talent/skill you must have that the only guys who can beat you are UFC champs or Future/Former Ufc champs. Bj wouldnt even give kampmann the time of day for obvious reasons i posted above in this thread. Its hard to have a serious mma coversation with anybody who thinks Martin Kampmann beats bj penn after kampmann is now 1-3 against guys who fought/will fight for a ufc belt Marquardt, Diego, shields That one title contender win Thales Leites who is now cut and had no business being in the ring with Anderson Silva if you watched that fight you know what im talking about. Bj Penn is in end of his prime but hes still another level(s)above kampmann.

[keyboarding]

I don't understand how stuffing takedowns doesn't seem to score points with the judges.

[rocky502]

Clearly Kampmann won the first. No way would I consider it a 10-8. He simply picked Diego apart with effective pinpoint strikes, but I don't think he was even close to finishing him. I would say he was slightly more dominant than when GSP picked apart Kos and closed his eye. It was ugly and he dominated him, but clearly was a 10-9. Round 2 was a toss-up. It could have went either way with Kampmann's effective strikes but Diego did buckle him twice and won the exchanges, plus he was moving forward more which has perceived value to many judges. I thought Sanchez won round 3 and I did not think that round could be scored any other way. I really dislike Sanchez, but I give him props for taking that beating and still wading in the whole fight.

[MadTiger]

Clearly Kampmann won the first. No way would I consider it a 10-8. He simply picked Diego apart with effective pinpoint strikes, but I don't think he was even close to finishing him. I would say he was slightly more dominant than when GSP picked apart Kos and closed his eye. It was ugly and he dominated him, but clearly was a 10-9. Round 2 was a toss-up. It could have went either way with Kampmann's effective strikes but Diego did buckle him twice and won the exchanges, plus he was moving forward more which has perceived value to many judges. I thought Sanchez won round 3 and I did not think that round could be scored any other way. I really dislike Sanchez, but I give him props for taking that beating and still wading in the whole fight.

Cosign everything except disliking Sanchez. I disliked him at first, but over the years, he has really shown that he is 100 with his shit.

[ttrace35]

I don't understand how stuffing takedowns doesn't seem to score points with the judges.

Stuffing takedowns is part of octagon control and should be counted.

[BIGDAY]

Guys! NEWS FLASH!!! KAMPMAN LOST!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Pin2Win]

hahahaa Kampmann must have been in track, that boy can run! Sanchez gassed him out!

[Poppa Catfish]

I watched this fight 3 times and I can't understand what you guys are talkin about. Kampy won that 3rd round clearly. He was destroying sanchez in the third until he broke his had with 1:01 left. Even the post fight announcers were shocked. You need to watch the 3rd round again poppa.

I plan to, there is a lot to look at from that fight. Was really entertaining for one thing, well worth a second, third look imo. Diego reminds me a lot like Jon Fitch, guys with no athletic ability what so ever, but overachieve in mma on heart and desire alone. Many a lesser willed fighter would have found a way out of that fight last night.

I find it slightly odd to see people who usually come down on the side of slamming timidity in the ring/ cage are now praising Kampmann for his track meet out there yesterday. I'm wondering where the bias comes from, is it because people 100% prefer point fighting if it is on the feet, if they just can't stand Diego, or a little of both. All we hear about is raging once again about takedowns, which I don't think factored in the fight at all, and how the technical fighter should have been rewarded. Funny to me how the technical wrestler like say in a typical Fitch fight doesn't get that same treatment.

Funny because I don't think of them as the same, while the wrestler might be controlling the fight in slow grind it out way, at least he is engaging the opponent. If the opponent has the tools to sweep, submit, or strike during the take down attempt then it is right there for the taking. Awfully tough to do anything to an opponent pulling a Starnes.

[Poppa Catfish]

hahahaa Kampmann must have been in track, that boy can run! Sanchez gassed him out!

He deserved a fastest lap of the night award

[BIGDAY]

He deserved a fastest lap of the night award

[ttrace35]

I plan to, there is a lot to look at from that fight. Was really entertaining for one thing, well worth a second, third look imo. Diego reminds me a lot like Jon Fitch, guys with no athletic ability what so ever, but overachieve in mma on heart and desire alone. Many a lesser willed fighter would have found a way out of that fight last night.

I find it slightly odd to see people who usually come down on the side of slamming timidity in the ring/ cage are now praising Kampmann for his track meet out there yesterday. I'm wondering where the bias comes from, is it because people 100% prefer point fighting if it is on the feet, if they just can't stand Diego, or a little of both. All we hear about is raging once again about takedowns, which I don't think factored in the fight at all, and how the technical fighter should have been rewarded. Funny to me how the technical wrestler like say in a typical Fitch fight doesn't get that same treatment.

Funny because I don't think of them as the same, while the wrestler might be controlling the fight in slow grind it out way, at least he is engaging the opponent. If the opponent has the tools to sweep, submit, or strike during the take down attempt then it is right there for the taking. Awfully tough to do anything to an opponent pulling a Starnes.

I do hate diego. But he earned a lot of my respect last night. He still didn't win that fight. Basically comes down to the 3rd round. Everybody agrees kampmann won the first and diego won the 2nd.

[Poppa Catfish]

I do hate diego. But he earned a lot of my respect last night. He still didn't win that fight. Basically comes down to the 3rd round. Everybody agrees kampmann won the first and diego won the 2nd.

I actually think the second was razor thin, but I can see the case for the fight being 29-28 Kampmann, 29-28 Sanchez, and if 10-10 rounds were possible even a draw. 10 point system sure does have its flaws.

[Boddhissatva]

My analysis of this fight was 100 percent correct.

[ttrace35]

CANCHEZ BABY!!!!!! WoooooHoooooooooo !!!

That guy doesn't know how to stop. Canpman was basically running away from him in the second. WTF? Stand up and fight the whole round Kampman! Loser! HAHAHAHAHA

And my largest bet of the evening cashed so I guess I am slightly biased. lol

Have a good day boys.

What are you talking about? Congrats on your win. After your last event, seems you needed it. What did you win a million dollars? proof that your a noob. Relax bro. Bets are won and lost all the time. Take it easy. I am just analysing the fight. Its good debate. If people didn't disagree, these forums would be bullshit. I didn't even place a bet, nor did I say I was.

Now. If I came on here today and said that was a bullshit event or talking some pride shit, then I can see fukking with me. I gave the event the credit it deserves. I think kampman won the fight. You don't. Its kool bro. Btw. Diego is still a can. He won that fight because he had bigger nuts than kampy. Congrats on the win.

[THE_LOCKSMITH]

"instead of giving them a $40,000 bonus, which he gave to the Knockout of the Night and the Submission of the Night winners, White was so enthused by their brawl that he boosted their bonus to $60,000.

Then, about a half-hour after Sanchez won a taut 29-28 decision, White threw in another $100,000 for each guy. That meant that each fighter got paid his purse – which was not available immediately on Thursday – as well as two performance bonuses totaling $160,000 apiece. In addition, Sanchez was paid a contractually obligated win bonus."

at least they got paid some extra, i'm guessing diego will be out recovering his face and Kampmann his hand

[MadTiger]

I actually think the second was razor thin, but I can see the case for the fight being 29-28 Kampmann, 29-28 Sanchez, and if 10-10 rounds were possible even a draw. 10 point system sure does have its flaws.

10-10 rounds happen, but rarely. 10-point must simply means someone has to get a 10. The other fighter can get a 10 also.

[Poppa Catfish]

10-10 rounds happen, but rarely. 10-point must simply means someone has to get a 10. The other fighter can get a 10 also.

True, technically it is in the rule book, but they are used so sparingly, even though there are many rounds that would seem to call for their use, that I believe some judges eliminate them as a possibility.

and by sparingly I mean if pressed to name one, I couldn't list one 10-10 round from memory.