Bellator 97: Chandler Vs Rickels (July 21, 2013)

[MD]

look at the guys he's facing. And Koreshkov managed to sprawl at least once, but was dumb enough to then continue grappling in stead of letting go and backing up and circling. He also caught Askren with a knee to the face when Askren did a sloppy telegraphed shot. We aren't saying he isnt a good wrestler, he's an amazing "funky" wrestler, but when he was wrestling he didnt have to worry about getting kneed in the face!

Pretty much, yeah. Koreshkov sprawled on Askren many times. Askren just still took him down. The entire point of a setup is to hide your takedown or make it so that your opponent cannot attempt to defend in time. Pretty much none of Askren's takedowns are set up in any effective way.

[mirinquads]

Md thats what I personally define as technique. How he after an awful shot just keep going until he gets the right angel just keep working at until its driven home. Athletism for me is when a person can penetrating jump over a takedown attempt like Burger vs Heiron. The reason why I want to see him against gsp, although it will more than likely look like the rory fight. But we're arguing semantics again.

[MD]

Md thats what I personally define as technique. How he after an awful shot just keep going until he gets the right angel just keep working at until its driven home. Athletism for me is when a person can penetrating jump over a takedown attempt like Burger vs Heiron. The reason why I want to see him against gsp, although it will more than likely look like the rory fight. But we're arguing semantics again.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying I define athleticism differently than you seem to. I'm happy to admit that by how you perceive athleticism, Askren isn't on the same level as Ellenberger. It's just a difference of opinion.

[mirinquads]

But don't stop because although it can be annoying at times you're one of the few people on this site it CAN be productive with as well

[On2TheNext1]

look at the guys he's facing. And Koreshkov managed to sprawl at least once, but was dumb enough to then continue grappling in stead of letting go and backing up and circling. He also caught Askren with a knee to the face when Askren did a sloppy telegraphed shot. We aren't saying he isnt a good wrestler, he's an amazing "funky" wrestler, but when he was wrestling he didnt have to worry about getting kneed in the face!

I'll give you that. I'm of the opinion it'll be much of the same until he's facing top 5 level MW's.

[On2TheNext1]

There is no "traditional" MMA grappling, given that it's an infantile sport, and Askren is competing in MMA, not wrestling. In MMA, he does not have good setups.

Again, what constitutes a poor setup in a such an infantile sport? What are you comparing his setups against? Traditional MMA grappling that you've become accustomed to. I'm saying, as a euro who hasn't been exposed to the evolution of American grappling, wrestling based, you're frame of reference is skewed and not refined enough to appreciate what Askren is doing because it lacks the "style" that you're accustomed to.

You're saying that because Askren is getting takedowns, his setups are good, which is nonsense.

Sounds perfectly logical to me. What is the purpose of a setup? To get the guy down. What does Askren do? Get the guy down.

Askren doesn't get takedowns because of his setups, which are bad, he gets takedowns because once he gets a hold of someone, he's freakishly strong in positions that others are not, and is very persistent. He rarely even sets up his takedowns.

Getting ahold of someone is not part of setting someone up for a takedown? Closing distance is not part of a setup? His setups aren't explosive or flashy, but they're still setups and they're good.

[MD]

Again, what constitutes a poor setup in a such an infantile sport? What are you comparing his setups against? Traditional MMA grappling that you've become accustomed to. I'm saying, as a euro who hasn't been exposed to the evolution of American grappling, wrestling based, you're frame of reference is skewed and not refined enough to appreciate what Askren is doing because it lacks the "style" that you're accustomed to.

Yeah, that must be it. Or maybe Askren just hasn't adjusted his "modern American grappling style" (with which he competed in the Olympics five years ago, when MMA wrestling was completely different to how it is today) to MMA.

Sounds perfectly logical to me. What is the purpose of a setup? To get the guy down. What does Askren do? Get the guy down.

If you seriously think that because Askren gets guys down, he has good setups, this discussion has pretty much no purpose, as you're obviously never going to agree with anything I say.

Getting ahold of someone is not part of setting someone up for a takedown? Closing distance is not part of a setup? His setups aren't explosive or flashy, but they're still setups and they're good.

Uh, he closes distance by walking right towards his opponent, which is, not coincidentally, the same thing he does to get a hold of them. Hence "bad setups".

Just walking towards someone is not a setup, it's the absence of a setup.

What you're saying is absolute nonsense.

[On2TheNext1]

Yeah, that must be it. Or maybe Askren just hasn't adjusted his "modern American grappling style" (with which he competed in the Olympics five years ago, when MMA wrestling was completely different to how it is today) to MMA.



If you seriously think that because Askren gets guys down, he has good setups, this discussion has pretty much no purpose, as you're obviously never going to agree with anything I say.



Uh, he closes distance by walking right towards his opponent, which is, not coincidentally, the same thing he does to get a hold of them. Hence "bad setups".

Just walking towards someone is not a setup, it's the absence of a setup.

What you're saying is absolute nonsense.

How can something be bad if it works and works continually? That's nonsensical.

[MD]

How can something be bad if it works and works continually? That's nonsensical.

Because it's not his setups that work, it's the other elements of his wrestling game.

[Vaughany]

I'll give you that. I'm of the opinion it'll be much of the same until he's facing top 5 level MW's.

probably right about that

[On2TheNext1]

Because it's not his setups that work, it's the other elements of his wrestling game.

Can't say something is bad if it doesn't exist.

[MD]

Can't say something is bad if it doesn't exist.

So now you're saying he doesn't have any setups, after stating multiple times that he has good setups?

[Educ8d Degener8]

I'll give you that. I'm of the opinion it'll be much of the same until he's facing top 5 level MW's.

Dafuq?

[On2TheNext1]

So now you're saying he doesn't have any setups, after stating multiple times that he has good setups?

No, you said they're non existent (twice)... so how can they be bad?

[MD]

No, you said they're not existent (twice)... so how can they be bad?

The same way that having no head movement means having bad head movement.

We literally just had this conversation a few hours ago:

What constitutes a poor setup?

Either a setup that is ineffectual or telegraphed, or no setup at all, as in Askren's case. He generally walks towards his opponents with his arms out like a zombie and dives at them.

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

[On2TheNext1]

The same way that having no head movement means having bad head movement.

We literally just had this conversation a few hours ago:





You're just embarrassing yourself at this point.

No, I'm thinking you're looking for an out but your position is as tied up as Magny's neck just was.

I think Askren has good setups (and do exist).

You say they don't exist, but they're also bad, which makes zero logical sense.

How can it be ineffectual if it doesn't exist and/or works?

[MD]

No, I'm thinking you're looking for an out but your position is as tied up as Magny's neck just was.

I think Askren has good setups (and do exist).

You say they don't exist, but they're also bad, which makes zero logical sense.

How can it be ineffectual if it doesn't exist and/or works?

Looking for an out by repeating something I said earlier when you asked me what constitutes a poor setup?

Because not having setups for his takedowns obviously means that his setups are not as good as other wrestlers in MMA, thus, he has setups that are worse than the average, thus "bad" setups.

Leonard Garcia has no head movement, thus "bad" head movement. What about this don't you get? You've run out of ways to try and argue that Askren has good setups, so now you're just arguing semantics instead.

[On2TheNext1]

Looking for an out by repeating something I said earlier when you asked me what constitutes a poor setup?

Because not having setups for his takedowns obviously means that his setups are not as good as other wrestlers in MMA, thus, he has setups that are worse than the average, thus "bad" setups.

Leonard Garcia has no head movement, thus "bad" head movement. What about this don't you get? You've run out of ways to try and argue that Askren has good setups, so now you're just arguing semantics instead.

No, you've just confirmed you don't know what a setup is.

[MD]

No, you've just confirmed you don't know what a setup is.

Ok bro. Feel free to believe that if you wish.