Damon/Matsui Both out of the lineup tonight

[rmcaj]

Just released on the Yankee TV network that both Damon and Matsui will be out tonight. Good news for all Pirate backers tonight.

[j$]

Just my luck

[rmcaj]

I jumped on the Under after seeing this...

[Capwizards]

Good information.....Thanks for posting. Goold luck tonight. My Free Play is listed on the site.

[freeVICK]

ahh crap i got the over. anyone else got the other and thinking about hedging

[Sinister Cat]

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette says Nady is unlikely to play for the Pirates..

[freeVICK]

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette says Nady is unlikely to play for the Pirates..

great... whats next arod, jeter and bay?

[Capwizards]

great... whats next arod, jeter and bay?

lol....Hang in there man...the pitching still sucks!

[fifawcs]

Seriously, do you think Damon and Matsui out will make a difference. They will be replaced by righties since Gorzelanny is a lefty. Shelley Duncan has a lot of power, so expect him to go yard. Also, Betemit can drive the ball.

[j$]

i liked Betimit in LA hopefully he can smack one out today

[freeVICK]

alright fifa, you convinced me to stick with the over. hope ur right. you playing the over too?

[fifawcs]

Yep. The only reason the Yanks didn't score much this past weekend is because they faced pretty good pitching from the reds. And the Yankees seem to not be able to hit people they have never faced too well. That is why Volquez was so successful.

[rmcaj]

Seriously, do you think Damon and Matsui out will make a difference. They will be replaced by righties since Gorzelanny is a lefty. Shelley Duncan has a lot of power, so expect him to go yard. Also, Betemit can drive the ball.

Anytime you take out 2 of the top 5 AL batting leaders from your lineup that will make a huge difference. The last time Gorzelanny pitched against the Yankees was last year at Yankee Stadium in which he gave up 2 hits and 2 rbi's against Matsui and gave up another hit to Damon. So right there on the 4 runs he gave up in Yankee Stadium, 2 of which were by Matsui. Now this is just one side of the game here, Rasner could still go out there and get rocked. I just can't make sense of the fact that you think taking Damon and Matsui out of the lineup replaced by the likes of Shelly Duncan can possibly cancel this out to produce the same or more offensive production?

[onthewhat]

pirates pitcher is a lefty so no big deal.

the over is good here

[fifawcs]

Anytime you take out 2 of the top 5 AL batting leaders from your lineup that will make a huge difference. The last time Gorzelanny pitched against the Yankees was last year at Yankee Stadium in which he gave up 2 hits and 2 rbi's against Matsui and gave up another hit to Damon. So right there on the 4 runs he gave up in Yankee Stadium, 2 of which were by Matsui. Now this is just one side of the game here, Rasner could still go out there and get rocked. I just can't make sense of the fact that you think taking Damon and Matsui out of the lineup replaced by the likes of Shelly Duncan can possibly cancel this out to produce the same or more offensive production?

I think Gorzelanny was a different pitcher back then. At that point, the Yankees had never seen him and he was pitching well. This gave him a huge advantage and he was still tagged for 4 runs over 6 innings. Now, in his much worse form, the Yankees are facing him. Yes, having Matsui and Damon out hurts. But that is no reason to go out and hedge your bet when Betemit and Shelley will be able to hit this guy no problem from the right side.

[onthewhat]

Melky is playing center, and some kid named J. Christian is making his MLB debut tonight I believe in LF.

Melky
Jeter
Abreu
A-Rod
Giambi
Posada
Cano
Christian
Pitcher

[fifawcs]

Righty opponents are batting .278 against Gorzelanny this year. His lefty opponents are batting .243. And yeah, you could argue that he is 4-1 at home, but a majority of those teams are in no way comparable to the yanks offensively. The one opponent who is comparable, the Cubs, tagged him for 7 runs in 2.1 innings.

[onthewhat]

A-Rod has been hot and he will go deep tonight off this bum with an ERA over 6

[fifawcs]

This kid is a righty and he is batting .309 w/ 4 homers and 39 RBIs. He also has 18 stolen bases. The Yanks have one of the best farm systems since it is so difficult to make it to the Yanks roster.

[rmcaj]

I think Gorzelanny was a different pitcher back then. At that point, the Yankees had never seen him and he was pitching well. This gave him a huge advantage and he was still tagged for 4 runs over 6 innings. Now, in his much worse form, the Yankees are facing him. Yes, having Matsui and Damon out hurts. But that is no reason to go out and hedge your bet when Betemit and Shelley will be able to hit this guy no problem from the right side.

I see your argument with the pitching change from this yr to last for Tom, however lets remember he was pitching for the first time at Yankee Stadium which is a very hostile and intimidating ballpark on a Friday night nonetheless. Believe me I know much about that last game he pitched against the Yanks because I was there. To put all this stock in Betemit and Duncan is a little unsoundly. If that was such a quick fix to things how come they are not daily fixtures in the starting lineup? Shelly Duncan had been lost in the minors that past decade before he was called up last year and what can you really say about Betemit? He is batting .250 3HR 10RBI in 64AB. Look any day of the week you tell me Matsui and Damon are gonna be out of the lineup, and I don't care who the pitcher there opposing is, I'll take the under without question.

[fifawcs]

Yankee Stadium is much tougher to pitch in for the Yankee pitcher than it is for the opposing pitcher. This is because there is much more pressure on the Yankee pitchers. Why do you think so many of the Steinbrenner acquisitions have failed? It's because they acquire these pitchers who came to the stadium and had good games but then start pitching like crap the second they set foot in New York. Shelly Duncan and Betemit are not nearly as good as Matsui and Damon, but they are good bench alternatives if those two are ever out. Betemit and Duncan are much better players when they play once in a while as opposed to playing every day, hence their bench positions.

[rmcaj]

Ok for the record you guys need to stop putting all this juice into the Yankees. If you wanna know one thing about this series, coming into the series the Pirates led the Yankees in HR's 78-76 and in total runs scored 370-351. Now lets not all go nuts about this GREAT Yankee offense. So now knowing that I am now gonna take out Matsui and Damon from this great run scoring offense. An offense that produces less then the Pirates. So with that being said, if there scoring less runs already then the Pirates and now I'm taking 2 of the 5 best hitters in the league out of there lineup how can you really tell me a bench player and a minor league prospect are gonna make up for this?

[fifawcs]

Again, you are not considering the implicits. The Pirates are in a much worse division and in a much worse league. The Yankees are in the AL East, which is the toughest division in baseball by far. The caliber of pitchers that the Yanks have to face is much tougher than the Pirates. Especially since a lot of teams save their best starters for the series against the Yanks. On top of that, it is more important which team is producing more as of late. Since both have been producing a lot recently, the over is the best play. But if I had to choose a side, i would take the Yanks.

[rmcaj]

Yankee Stadium is much tougher to pitch in for the Yankee pitcher than it is for the opposing pitcher. This is because there is much more pressure on the Yankee pitchers. Why do you think so many of the Steinbrenner acquisitions have failed? It's because they acquire these pitchers who came to the stadium and had good games but then start pitching like crap the second they set foot in New York. Shelly Duncan and Betemit are not nearly as good as Matsui and Damon, but they are good bench alternatives if those two are ever out. Betemit and Duncan are much better players when they play once in a while as opposed to playing every day, hence their bench positions.

OK those are complete generalizations about a pitcher being signed by the Yanks and having to play there more then not. I can name you a million great pitchers the Yankees have had that have thrived under the bright lights. Lets not be so oblivious to other teams in baseball that sign plenty of people that for one reason or not do not meet expectations. The Yankees get so much publicity for every move they make and are always being talked about that sometimes you forget that other teams have the same exact problems.

[fifawcs]

Let's see:
Randy Johnson
Shawn Chacon
Cory Lidle (may he rest in peace)
Mike Mussina (he doesn't suck, but he is definitely not as good as he was for the Orioles)
Carl Pavano
Kyle Farnsworth (not a starter, but a big flop nevertheless)
Jaret Wright

.... Just to name a few

[rmcaj]

Again, you are not considering the implicits. The Pirates are in a much worse division and in a much worse league. The Yankees are in the AL East, which is the toughest division in baseball by far. The caliber of pitchers that the Yanks have to face is much tougher than the Pirates. Especially since a lot of teams save their best starters for the series against the Yanks. On top of that, it is more important which team is producing more as of late. Since both have been producing a lot recently, the over is the best play. But if I had to choose a side, i would take the Yanks.

You can't tell me today that the Over in this game can be analyzed to the point that the Pirates play in a weaker division? Is that even true? You have the Cards and the Cubs two of the hottest teams in baseball this yr in that league(Cards just swept Boston in Fenway), the Astros who are 4 games over .500, the Brewers who last yr really turned around there losing ways and to spite a bad start this year are still 8 over .500, and lastly as the worst team in the league you still have in the Reds the best pitcher in the NL with some of the best young pitching in the game right now. So your argument with the divisions is entirely wrong, the pirates play in an equal or tougher division then the yanks. So you can add in the part where you say the Yanks face far superior pitching and really disregard that also because that is not true. No one now also is saving there best pitchers for the Yanks. The rotation falls how it falls. No one in the regular season is gonna start throwing there ace on 3 days rest for some series against the Yankees or make any move that would go away from there pitchers regular rest just for a 3 game set. The you say both have producing as of late? The Yanks scored like 9 runs against the Reds this weekend...so now there due? without there regular starters in there?

[freeVICK]

i smell an avatar bet

[rmcaj]

Let's see:
Randy Johnson
Shawn Chacon
Cory Lidle (may he rest in peace)
Mike Mussina (he doesn't suck, but he is definitely not as good as he was for the Orioles)
Carl Pavano
Kyle Farnsworth (not a starter, but a big flop nevertheless)
Jaret Wright

.... Just to name a few

Ok first off your not even naming some of there big moves. First off Chacon was a midseason pick up, Lidle was not even on the team more then a yr, Mussina is having one of his best yrs as a starter right now, Pavano was a bust due to injury, Farnsworth has just been a middle reliever for them who are very expandable, and Jaret Wright was an offseason move that didnt pan out because of injuries not performance. The same can be said for Pavano also. It wasn't pressure that got to those two it was injuries. Johnson is really the only argument you can make that was a semi bust who even had a 17-8 record with a 3.79 ERA in his 2nd of two years with the yanks. It was just his first year that was bad.

[fifawcs]

I think you are overlooking a lot. The Yankees are competing with the Blue Jays, Orioles, Red Sox and the Tampa Bay Rays. The only one of those teams that is under .500 is the Blue Jays and they are still a very good team. The Cubs, the supposed best team in the Majors, got swept by the Tampa Bay Rays, an AL East team. And since opponents are from other divisions, this is a clear Al-Nl comparison. The AL is superior to the NL, which is proven by this year's interleague play as well as every prior year leading up to 1999, the last time the NL won the All Star Game. And yes, teams do try to put there best pitchers in for the Yankee series. This may not apply to other AL East teams, but other AL teams certainly do this mostly because the Yanks are regarded historically as the greatest team in sports history.


And even if we do throw the AL-NL superiority arguments out the door, it still supports the over being the play. Both teams have good offenses, both pitchers are a little shaky.

[rmcaj]

i smell an avatar bet

I don't know what that is, but I would play my under in it. I'm not trying to say that this is like, "THE LOCK OF THE DECADE" or anything crazy like that. I'm just saying if your gonna play the total in this game I think there is a lot more value in the under then the over to make money.

[freeVICK]

winner chooses an avatar for the loser to use for a week or something like that

[fifawcs]

Ok first off your not even naming some of there big moves. First off Chacon was a midseason pick up, Lidle was not even on the team more then a yr, Mussina is having one of his best yrs as a starter right now, Pavano was a bust due to injury, Farnsworth has just been a middle reliever for them who are very expandable, and Jaret Wright was an offseason move that didnt pan out because of injuries not performance. The same can be said for Pavano also. It wasn't pressure that got to those two it was injuries. Johnson is really the only argument you can make that was a semi bust who even had a 17-8 record with a 3.79 ERA in his 2nd of two years with the yanks. It was just his first year that was bad.

Like I said, Mussina is good, but a lot of that is because of the offensive support behind him. That is why his record is so good. He used to be way better on the Orioles, who would give him much less run support. And Pavano sucked in the few starts he pitched for the Yanks. Since sucked is a relative term, he sucked compared to his world series year with the Marlins. Whether these guys were midseason pick ups or middle relievers, it doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that they were acquired because they played well against the Yankees on a few occasions or played well in their respective divisions. You can't make excuses for these guys because they are injury prone. Playing in New York is a different animal, but if you can conquer the said animal, then you will be rewarded tenfold.

[rmcaj]

I think you are overlooking a lot. The Yankees are competing with the Blue Jays, Orioles, Red Sox and the Tampa Bay Rays. The only one of those teams that is under .500 is the Blue Jays and they are still a very good team. The Cubs, the supposed best team in the Majors, got swept by the Tampa Bay Rays, an AL East team. And since opponents are from other divisions, this is a clear Al-Nl comparison. The AL is superior to the NL, which is proven by this year's interleague play as well as every prior year leading up to 1999, the last time the NL won the All Star Game. And yes, teams do try to put there best pitchers in for the Yankee series. This may not apply to other AL East teams, but other AL teams certainly do this mostly because the Yanks are regarded historically as the greatest team in sports history.




And even if we do throw the AL-NL superiority arguments out the door, it still supports the over being the play. Both teams have good offenses, both pitchers are a little shaky.

You make good arguments I just think your looking at the wrong aspects to evaluate this game. The Blue Jays just fired there manager which really shows you where there going, the Orioles can be canceled out with the Astros, the Red Sox are obviously good, but there very comparable to what the Cubs are in there division, then your left with the Rays who RIGHT NOW are playing well, but they have never played like this before and who knows if there young pitchers arms will be able to still produce in September when it will all matters. The AL may be superior then the NL, but for this ONE game, and the situation where the Yankees are without there two best hitters (for avg) I don't think the AL being superior is relevant. We're not evaluating both leagues right now and all teams, we're evaluating this ONE game. I think that is where you are missing the idea. Your encompassing like all central ideas into this when your not seeing the intricate details. The fact that the AL is better then the NL is irrelevant to the fact that with the Yankees two best hitters out tonight they stand at a lot worse position to score runs then they do with them.

[rmcaj]

Alright well the game is on now, only time will tell. Would like to hear your
"in game" comments as things play out. In terms of solid baseball discussions I see in this forum this was one of the better ones.

[fifawcs]

But you see, these teams are a product of their respective leagues and divisions. If for example, you were put in a math class with kindergardeners. Would your math skills go up or down? Most likely down. Same goes for baseball. And I think you are missing the idea that I am playing the Over, so the team that wins matters less to me than just hitting the over.