Dispute feedback wanted

[Justin7]

A player controls 5 accounts, against the rules of a sportsbook. The sportsbook catches 4 of them, and voids all the wagers, refunding the deposits. The fifth, undiscovered account lost its entire balance.

The player writes, complaining that his deposit on the fifth undiscovered account should be refunded as well. He can prove that he was fraudulently operating all five accounts.

Should the player get his deposit back on the fifth account?

[redsband]

Too bad for him, i hope he get his money back.....

[John Dough]

Tough one.

In theory, yes, but given that there's almost no chance he would have given the profits back had he won on the 5th account and the book hadn't caught it, he would have essentially been freerolling the book. "Catch me and I get my deposit back. Don't catch me and I get my deposit back if I lose, but I keep my winnings if I win." There's clearly something wrong with that too.

Does the book have any posted rules regarding this type of activity or fraud in general? Some books would have just kept everything because he tried to defraud them.

[John Dough]

Too bad for him, i hope he get his money back.....

Too bad he got caught trying to defraud a book?

Too bad players like this exist. Players deserve to be treated fairly, so do sportsbooks.

[HedgeHog]

It depends on if it's the original account and how long he used it before a second account was opened. Let's say he lost his balance quickly and then went on to open his first duplicate account. No fraud occurred on the initial account so the bets stand. The four subsequent accounts are void and the deposits get returned.

[noyb]

how likely is it the book really didn't find out about the 5th account, or just chose to ignore it as it was the only(?) losing one.

[Bartmeister]

Justin, Does it look like his original intent was bonus abuse, or was he just trying to circumvent limits? What was his overall figure? Were the 1st 4 accounts, winning accounts?

[Bartmeister]

Wouldn't it be great if we could all do this- open an account for $1000 and if it loses say $900 of it, then just immediately open another account at the same book and deposit $200, play it then inform the book you are committing multiple account fraud and would like to be reimbursed deposits on both accounts!

[Santo]

Wouldn't it be great if we could all do this- open an account for $1000 and if it loses say $900 of it, then just immediately open another account at the same book and deposit $200, play it then inform the book you are committing multiple account fraud and would like to be reimbursed deposits on both accounts!

And I think that's the reason you can't refund it.

[Bartmeister]

It might be a good idea to check to see if this guy also has an affiliate account and is playing his own sheet to get a % of his overall losses back.

[Bartmeister]

It might be a good idea to check to see if this guy also has an affiliate account at the same book, in case he is playing his own sheet to get a % of his overall losses back.

[HedgeHog]

And I think that's the reason you can't refund it.

I agree. You need to determine which was the initial account used and when the first dupe account was created. At this point, the first account balance is frozen on the date the fraud occurs and it's returned along with the deposits of the four dupe accounts.

[KEdge2k]

I think the player is lucky that he got back 4 of his 5 deposits.

[chunk]

Assuming no defined rule to handle this scenario:

1) If the undiscovered account was an original account, all action should stand to the date that the 2nd account was opened. From that date, net out, deposits returned, and accounts closed seems the best way to handle this.

2) If all 5 accounts were opened without any transactions taking place before the 2nd account was opened, to return deposits and close accounts seems fair to me.

As far as free rolls go, an argument could be made that the book was freerolling by claiming they hadn't discovered the 5th account, so could work both way.

Unless confiscation of funds is clearly defined in the rules, I don't think that it should ever take place.

[Bartmeister]

I agree. You need to determine which was the initial account used and when the first dupe account was created. At this point, the first account balance is frozen on the date the fraud occurs and it's returned along with the deposits of the four dupe accounts.

But don't you agree, if that became the precedent, that it would give shot-takers a risk free chance on the multiple accounts? A chance for a big payday on circumventing limits/bonus whoring (if they win and the book doesn't catch it), otherwise, the player informs the book or the books finds out themselves, and the player suffers no loss on the additional accounts. It would almost be like a cc ********** scammer, but without using a cc, risk-free wagering.

[wrongturn]

If only two accounts involved it is okay to refund all, but 5? I don't blame books take harsh position on that.

[Bartmeister]

Justin, Did this guy use different aliases on the other accounts or did he use the same name? I lost a couple grand last week in a book, can I get my friend down the street (who also has an account at the same book) to claim he was operating MY account?. If I get the 2K in deposits back I'd give him half of it,

[relaaxx]

Too bad he got caught trying to defraud a book?

Too bad players like this exist. Players deserve to be treated fairly, so do sportsbooks.

whatever the sportsbook does after finding out he has 5 accounts(and it is stated 1 account in rules allowed) is right. he is lucky they gave him back 4 out 0f 5 of the deposits made. he has some balls asking SBR to get his deposits from the 5th account. SBR should not be helping people who are obviously taking shots at books.

[durito]

how did they catch him?

[Bartmeister]

whatever the sportsbook does after finding out he has 5 accounts(and it is stated 1 account in rules allowed) is right. he is lucky they gave him back 4 out 0f 5 of the deposits made. he has some balls asking SBR to get his deposits from the 5th account. SBR should not be helping people who are obviously taking shots at books.

I agree, plus there is also a very good chance that this player had a 6th, 7th or more accounts that he won at. Of course, he wouldn't tell Justin about those accounts. I'd still like to know the players motive for having more than one account ad if they were all in his own name.

[robmpink]

No, because when the other 4 were returned, he/she should have spoke up. Because they didn't, it shows intent that they would have attempted to cash out if they won.

[Dark Horse]

No mention of whether or not player was up at those 4 accounts, but, regardlessly, he was trying to cheat the book (not a case of a mistaken second account at the same sportsbook family), and took the risk of the book taking a shot at him. So in that sense it's not even relevant if the book decided to do so or not. The player knowingly opened that door. No sympathy for cheaters.

[Justin7]

Justin, Does it look like his original intent was bonus abuse, or was he just trying to circumvent limits? What was his overall figure? Were the 1st 4 accounts, winning accounts?

Definitely bonus abuse.

[Justin7]

how did they catch him?

He wasn't very skilled at multi-accounting. They caught him about 3 different ways.

[trixtrix]

if they can catch 4 accounts and he's a newbie, then it stands to reason they were able to catch the 5th account, i don't buy the story the book missed the losing account, refund that one same as others

[goombah]

justin7, where do you find out if the book allows multiple accounts under different skins? i'm using one with an account under two different skins and they allowed me to do it to get around the mb limit but now i'm wondering if i'm getting freerolled when my account is nice and big they confiscate all the money.

[Justin7]

justin7, where do you find out if the book allows multiple accounts under different skins? i'm using one with an account under two different skins and they allowed me to do it to get around the mb limit but now i'm wondering if i'm getting freerolled when my account is nice and big they confiscate all the money.

I'd be very careful doing this. There is a freeroll risk, especially if it is a set of Jazette books.

[JoeVig]

I'd be very careful doing this. There is a freeroll risk, especially if it is a set of Jazette books.

Justin,
How would a hypothetically naive player know that one or more books are skins or siblings? Of course there is SBR and the parent book is shown there in the main listings. I don't see how a book can expect that a player intuitively knows which books are related.

Of course we are talking about the wild wild west of offshore gaming, and books seem nearly untouchable to freeroll as they please.

[skrtelfan]

sportsbook.com invited players to open accounts with other books in their family and then stole the balance, in fact I was explicitly told by sportsbook.com CS that I was allowed accounts at other books. They didn't steal from me claiming "multi-accounting" but they did steal from me otherwise (the CPs and the voided futures claiming they were leaving the US market post-UIGEA and then returned to the US market a week later without reinstating the futures.) So why say sportsbook.com is turning the corner and working to resolve disputes when they haven't done shit to return money to those who had money voided for having multiple accounts or money otherwise stolen?

[Extra Innings]

No....He should have notified them. If he won, you would have never heard about the complaint. Did not conduct in good faith.

[andywend]

Should the player get his deposit back on the fifth account?

Justin7, in my opinion, opening up multiple accounts at the same book to try and circumvent betting limits is not quite as shady as doing it to abuse bonuses.

In my opinion, if the multiple accounts were opened without claiming bonuses (to circumvent max limits), then the bettor should receive the deposits back on all 5 accounts and told never to open up an account at their site again (with the penalty being forfeiture of funds in the future).

However, since the multiple accounts were opened solely to abuse bonuses, he definitely should NOT get his deposit back on the 5th account and he's lucky to be getting back the deposits he made on the other 4 accounts.

While I am not a huge fan of account bonuses (I would rather books that offer them to cease doing it and instead offer tighter spreads to their loyal, active customers), people who open up multiple accounts to abuse these bonuses are real scum and should be treated as such.

[evo34]

Am I the only one who thinks all wagers should stand and all balances should be paid out (minus fraudulent bonuses earned and any transaction cost reimbursements)? Any other scenario allows the book to free roll. The book would simply allow multi-accounts to exist until the player is up x dollars, at which time it voids all winnings. The opposite (player free rolling book) is not an option. The player cannot open five accounts, wait until he loses all his funds, and then say, "Oh, hey. Those five accounts are all me. So can you void all my action?" Book would rightly say, "Tough sheet."

The bottom line is that if you allow books to void past wagers as far back as they wish, there is zero incentive not to wait until it is advantageous for them to "discover" the multiple accounts before they do so. If it's not advantageous, they can just turn a blind eye for as long as they want. The only real fraud here was with regard to bonus collecting. The wagers themselves were legit and should stand.

[ElLoco23]

Is this a good example on why books don't allow bonus abuse?

A player opens 4 accounts in his "friends" names and deposits $500 into each ($2000 investment) for a 100% bonus with 8x rollover. He now has $1000 cash in each account.

He takes team A at -110 risking $1000 to win $910 at 2 of the accounts and bets the opposite sides risking the same amount at the other 2 accounts, so he is guaranteed to win 2 and lose 2. After the game is graded he then has $1910 in 2 accounts.

He now bets team C at -110 risking $1910 to win $1736 at 1 account and bets the opposite side team D, risking the same, so he is guaranteed to win 1 and lose 1. After the game is graded he will then have $3646 in is last remaining account (a no risk +$1646). He has met $2646 in rollover of the $8000 required, so he has $5354 to go. So in essence, what was an 8x rollover is really only a 1.47x rollover (since there was no risk involved) and he is up $1646 again with no risk at all.

If one were to take it further, opening 8 accounts instead of 4 (total investment $4000), he would then continue the same, risking $3646 to win $3145 on both sides, guaranteeing one account to have $6791. He would be up +$2791 and his rollover would be at $5791 with only $2209 to go, becoming a no risk, less than 1x rollover.

Using more than 8 accounts and it becomes a risk free bonus clearing ATM machine.

And what can a book really do to stop this if you really do have a 8 REAL FRIENDS at the local bar/club/work who wouldn't mind doing this with you?

[igor 11]

They should take all his money from all accounts.

[Dark Horse]

Am I the only one who thinks all wagers should stand and all balances should be paid out (minus fraudulent bonuses earned and any transaction cost reimbursements)? Any other scenario allows the book to free roll. The book would simply allow multi-accounts to exist until the player is up x dollars, at which time it voids all winnings. The opposite (player free rolling book) is not an option. The player cannot open five accounts, wait until he loses all his funds, and then say, "Oh, hey. Those five accounts are all me. So can you void all my action?" Book would rightly say, "Tough sheet."

The bottom line is that if you allow books to void past wagers as far back as they wish, there is zero incentive not to wait until it is advantageous for them to "discover" the multiple accounts before they do so. If it's not advantageous, they can just turn a blind eye for as long as they want. The only real fraud here was with regard to bonus collecting. The wagers themselves were legit and should stand.

The player knowingly opens that door. Wagers would typically be used to bust out one account against another. Otherwise there's no point in opening 5 accounts. Player should have shopped around instead, and set this up spread out over several books.

This aside from the fact that bonus abusers f*ck things up for honest players.