Player thoughts on a possible dispute?

[BChrisB]

Book should pay, they took the bets.

This should be a learning lesson for them to upgrade their software and specify in their rules.

I'm a firm believer if a book takes a bet they have to honor it. Otherwise they can use the excuse of bad line, software gliche, etc, etc, every time a bet doesn't work in their favor.

Players have their responsibilities and books have theirs. It's funny how books are so strict on players responsibilities yet so liberal on their own.

Just my FYI

[durito]

MadTiger makes a good point. What if the guy did it way more than 5 times? Nothing to stop you from betting your whole roll $1000 at a time. A $1000 limit becomes $100,000 in a few minutes. The line will move of course, but the book obviously didn't intend for players to do this and obviously the software needs to be fixed.

How is the player supposed to know? There are books were you could bet a $1,000 limit 100x. Yea it's gonna move a lot, but the software allows it because the book allows it.

Parlaymakers isn't a real book, which is the problem. They think they can book pinny lines at pinny limits without any volume. They won't be around very long.

[Dark Horse]

In this case the binding arbitration the book agreed to borders on sleazy. Max is with 100% certainty monitoring this thread, so how easy would it have been for him to come in, take responsibility for the 4K, and clarify the new and improved teaser rules? This is just hoping for a favorable decision by SBR.

This is your chance to start earning a reputation as a standup guy, Max. Not to choose so now is to choose the opposite. Both go a long way.

[HedgeHog]

"Sweat the game, not the payout" (feel free to use this motto) You Book an honest line, you honor it. Down-grade the Book to a D regardless of its payout history.

[skrtelfan]

What would the book have done if the player called 10 minutes before the start of the game and said "Hey, I accidentally bet this teaser five times when I only meant to bet it once. Will you cancel the other four teasers for me?" I'm pretty sure there isn't a book in the world that would let you cancel your other four teasers at that point, which is why so much of this "bet voiding" is BS.

[pokernut9999]

What would the book have done if the player called 10 minutes before the start of the game and said "Hey, I accidentally bet this teaser five times when I only meant to bet it once. Will you cancel the other four teasers for me?" I'm pretty sure there isn't a book in the world that would let you cancel your other four teasers at that point, which is why so much of this "bet voiding" is BS.

Good point.

[Max009]

I'm still developing facts on this one... But assume the following is true:

A player makes a limit bet (1k).
30 seconds layer, player repeats. He does it 5 times, betting a total of 5k.
Book has no rule on point prohibiting "multi-popping".

10 minutes before the game starts, the book voids 4 of the wagers, and emails player notifying him of this.

The bet wins.

How would you handle those facts? (I reiterate that the facts are still being developed, but it would be an interesting dispute if it played out this way).

We did have a message stating that duplicate wagers would not be allowed. The player had several duplicate wagers prior to the message being posted which were allowed. After the message, duplicate wagers were canceled.

[sideloaded]

We did have a message stating that duplicate wagers would not be allowed. The player had several duplicate wagers prior to the message being posted which were allowed. After the message, duplicate wagers were canceled.

Why would you put a message in your software instead of just changing the software to not take the bet?

[Max009]

Why would you put a message in your software instead of just changing the software to not take the bet?

It seems like you should be able to snap your fingers and software should be changed but it doesn't really work like that. Besides which software is never perfect, so the message is needed regardless and is the more important of the two.

The software is a tool. If you go to your bank tomorrow and their software messes up and puts 50 million in your account do you think the bank lets you keep it because the software said so?

That is why we allowed the duplicate wagers before the text message but not after. The rules should matter. The software is a separate issue and important but not more important than the rules because software can make mistakes.

I don't believe the player was taking a shot at us, nor us at the player, or trying to cheat the software in this matter. I think the player just missed the message is all and continued on like normal. However, the rules should matter and are more important than the software.

[robmpink]

If the book sticks by their decision do you think SBR's rating of them will drop? Based on the facts the software should have not accepted it and he bet over the max. He was notified before the game via e-mail.

I personally think if this book does nothing more, SBR won't lower their rating and this thread, while rather interesting, is meant to stir up the pot on the player's side. If they stick by their guns, SBR will take no action, rightfully so. It is like a psuedo mild threat, this thread.

[Chuck Sims]

The bets were cancelled before the game started. Reason: Exceeded limit.

Case Closed....Next.

[BChrisB]

The software is a separate issue and important but not more important than the rules because software can make mistakes.

How is the software a separate issue? The software accepted the bet. No multi-popping rules (I'm assuming by Justin's post.) I'm an amatuer at php but i know it's not that hard to code: if($playerbetTotals > $maxbet) echo "Sorry your total bets exceeded the maximum allowed"

Your tech guys can do this in 5 minutes

[sideloaded]

How is the software a separate issue? The software accepted the bet. No multi-popping rules (I'm assuming by Justin's post.) I'm an amatuer at php but i know it's not that hard to code: if($playerbetTotals > $maxbet) echo "Sorry your total bets exceeded the maximum allowed"

Your tech guys can do this in 5 minutes

Quite true. I am familiar with basic programming knowledge. What your saying cant happen with a snap of a finger can indeed happen with less then 5 lines of code in any web programming language. Max your are digging you deeper.

[Max009]

How is the software a separate issue? The software accepted the bet. No multi-popping rules (I'm assuming by Justin's post.) I'm an amatuer at php but i know it's not that hard to code: if($playerbetTotals > $maxbet) echo "Sorry your total bets exceeded the maximum allowed"

Your tech guys can do this in 5 minutes

The software is a separate issue because the software can make mistakes, which is why there are rules. It is not as simple as the coding your describing but it is not extremely difficult but the point is the rule is what matters, the software is a tool to help enforce the rules. If the software fails, the rule still stands.

[BChrisB]

The software is a separate issue because the software can make mistakes, which is why there are rules. It is not as simple as the coding your describing but it is not extremely difficult but the point is the rule is what matters, the software is a tool to help enforce the rules. If the software fails, the rule still stands.

I hope after this indecent you make an important note to have your software conform with your rules so players and your company don't run into this issue again. This stuff is important to both sides. Good Luck

[Max009]

Quite true. I am familiar with basic programming knowledge. What your saying cant happen with a snap of a finger can indeed happen with less then 5 lines of code in any web programming language. Max your are digging you deeper.

So your an expert on our code now is that right?. You said it yourself.....your familiar with basic programming....enough said. I didn't say it would take 2 weeks, but its not five minutes. Again, the rule is what matters first. The code can always have flaws, but the rule is what is used to determine the validity of a wager, which is why every site has rules saying they are the final authority on wagers. Otherwise every software flaw the players would be demanding the million dollar error in their favor.

[sideloaded]

No way Im betting with a company who makes excuses about max betting being hard to implement into the software. And keeps saying software makes mistakes when in fact software does exactly what the programmer tells it to do, Its the programmer that makes the mistake. If you really know that little about web programming it's only a matter of time before your hacked and all your customers data is compromised. So your telling me that your site doesn't run off of the shelf software and programming languages? I don't need to know any specifics of your website to know what your saying is complete bullshit. Unless you invented your own super complex programming language just for your own website. Even then it just boils down to machine code. Even then implementing max bets is trivial in assembly language.

[Justin7]

So your an expert on our code now is that right?. You said it yourself.....your familiar with basic programming....enough said. I didn't say it would take 2 weeks, but its not five minutes. Again, the rule is what matters first. The code can always have flaws, but the rule is what is used to determine the validity of a wager, which is why every site has rules saying they are the final authority on wagers. Otherwise every software flaw the players would be demanding the million dollar error in their favor.

To be fair, there was no "rule" limiting the max bet. SBR recommended that PM put limits in its rules, and put in software limits (similar to what youwager does to professionals).

Parlaymakers stated that there was a note on the teaser wagering page limiting teasers to 1k total on identical bets. The player denies seeing this when he placed the 5 bets. We're still developing facts on this one.

[pokernut9999]

Why would someone make 5 seperate bets ?

Seems strange to me

[relaaxx]

[quote=Max009;7504433
The software is a tool. If you go to your bank tomorrow and their software messes up and puts 50 million in your account do you think the bank lets you keep it because the software said so?

[/quote]

i go to the bank tomorrow and deposit $5000 in a high interest account of 5%. check my account a week later and the money is not there, so i call. they tell me the teller should not have taken the money because the limit for the 5% is $1000, and they have been trying to contact me to explain. i would be willing to give odds that i would get the $5000 along with the 5% for the week and then decide if i want to deposit or not with the correct rules. bets should not have been cancelled without speaking to customer and him accepting the cancellation. pay him. eat the bet. fix the software. stop making excuses. any sportsbook whining about $4000 is a joke. go talk with jon from WAGERCHIEF let him explain to you how to treat customers. how not to look so foolishand petty.

[BChrisB]

Personally speaking, it's more complex to have your software message you when max bets take place than to stop them from happening in the first place. Basically, what your saying is your alerted by the software so it gives you the choice whether or not to accept bets. How does this conform to your own rules??? So your software alerts you so you can pick and chose when you decide it's okay to follow the rules or not??

This makes no sense.

[Max009]

To be fair, there was no "rule" limiting the max bet. SBR recommended that PM put limits in its rules, and put in software limits (similar to what youwager does to professionals).

Parlaymakers stated that there was a note on the teaser wagering page limiting teasers to 1k total on identical bets. The player denies seeing this when he placed the 5 bets. We're still developing facts on this one.

The max bet is limited by the betting menu. What there was, was not was a clear message about making duplicate wagers on the same lines and same teams. We put up the message changing that, the software changes will follow. Again, if we have a clear statement about what wagering restrictions there are then that is what should apply. Software can be imperfect, hacked, flaws, errors, all kinds of things.

[Max009]

No way Im betting with a company who makes excuses about max betting being hard to implement into the software. And keeps saying software makes mistakes when in fact software does exactly what the programmer tells it to do, Its the programmer that makes the mistake. If you really know that little about web programming it's only a matter of time before your hacked and all your customers data is compromised. So your telling me that your site doesn't run off of the shelf software and programming languages? I don't need to know any specifics of your website to know what your saying is complete bullshit. Unless you invented your own super complex programming language just for your own website. Even then it just boils down to machine code. Even then implementing max bets is trivial in assembly language.

You are demonstrating you are an amateur in programming. Any programmer worth anything never assumes he is an expert on someone else's code nor does he assume code always functions perfectly. Enough said about this programming topic, back to your parents basement, they don't like it when you leave the lights on.

[Max009]

i go to the bank tomorrow and deposit $5000 in a high interest account of 5%. check my account a week later and the money is not there, so i call. they tell me the teller should not have taken the money because the limit for the 5% is $1000, and they have been trying to contact me to explain. i would be willing to give odds that i would get the $5000 along with the 5% for the week and then decide if i want to deposit or not with the correct rules. bets should not have been cancelled without speaking to customer and him accepting the cancellation. pay him. eat the bet. fix the software. stop making excuses. any sportsbook whining about $4000 is a joke. go talk with jon from WAGERCHIEF let him explain to you how to treat customers. how not to look so foolishand petty.

If software allows you to do something against the rules at the bank like take out 50k from the ATM, they won't let you keep it. It's the rules that matter. Software is a tool, nothing more.

Again, wagers canceled after we changed the rules not before. Wagers before the rule change accepted as normal.

No one is arguing about the amount of money...that is your amateur hour comment not ours.

[sideloaded]

You are demonstrating you are an amateur in programming. Any programmer worth anything never assumes he is an expert on someone else's code nor does he assume code always functions perfectly. Enough said about this programming topic, back to your parents basement, they don't like it when you leave the lights on.

Your reading comprehension is pretty low because I said the exact opposite. I said the code does exactly what you tell it to do, the programmer is the one who makes the mistake. How is that assuming code functions perfectly? Since your reading comprehension is so low you also got your other statement completely wrong. I said I don't need to know anything about your code to know your spouting bullshit about max betting not being trivial to program. By the way I own my house and its paid off. Have a great day!

[sideloaded]

Just think Max if you had a clue about running an online sportsbook you could of dodged this public embrassement.



Then you had a chance to man up in this thread, but took the other route and made it worse by calling people names and making more ridiculous excuses.

[Kaabee]

you can often judge the quality of a book by the quality of it's representatives. that being said, stay the **** away from parlaymakers.

[Max009]

Your reading comprehension is pretty low because I said the exact opposite. I said the code does exactly what you tell it to do, the programmer is the one who makes the mistake. How is that assuming code functions perfectly? Since your reading comprehension is so low you also got your other statement completely wrong. I said I don't need to know anything about your code to know your spouting bullshit about max betting not being trivial to program. By the way I own my own house and its paid off. Have a great day!

I am finished discussing programming issues with you. You don't know what you are talking about. The change you suggest isn't even what is required but your too much of an expert to understand that. You have never even used the site let alone know what might be involved in programming something on it. I never said it was extremely complicated. I just said we put up the message first and that is more important than the software because software can have flaws, be hacked, all kinds of things.

[BChrisB]

You are demonstrating you are an amateur in programming. Any programmer worth anything never assumes he is an expert on someone else's code nor does he assume code always functions perfectly. Enough said about this programming topic, back to your parents basement, they don't like it when you leave the lights on.

This comes a bit unprofessional from someone representing a company and a dispute.

[sideloaded]

I am finished discussing programming issues with you. You don't know what you are talking about. The change you suggest isn't even what is required but your too much of an expert to understand that. You have never even used the site let alone know what might be involved in programming something on it. I never said it was extremely complicated. I just said we put up the message first and that is more important than the software because software can have flaws, be hacked, all kinds of things.

What no unprofessional joke about me living in my parents basement? I'm disappointed.

[relaaxx]

this place is starting to remind me of WAGERHUB. someone not smart enough to figure out that the only way you would ever want to come on to a forum like this, is when you agree with them, or at least lie and say you see thier point,maybe with a "but". or how about this, just shut up and let it get settled quietly. i understand why people complain but for a book to come on here to argue is just stupid. this is forum started for people like me(gamblers) who need protection against people like you(books). i can only imagine what would happen to people like us without it. so do me a favor - pay the guy or at least stop telling us how right you are and how wrong we are. go tell SBR how right you are. that you are keeping his money. just like every other book that comes on here and just beats that dead horse with his reasons for stiiffing someone. you lose business. how much you lose is up to you. the more you talk - the more business you will lose. your move.

[sideloaded]

Again, wagers canceled after we changed the rules not before.

Why would you admit you canceled a wager after you changed the rules? Shouldn't the wager stand and all new wagers from that point forward be subject to the new rule?

[bubba]

isnt their binding arbitration with sbr from this book? i see both points of view. their was a message (according to the book) but it can be easily overlooked. if these wagers were cancelled with enought time to give the player notice and give him time to lay off the action elsewhere (at least a few hours) i would give the book a chance (still not sure i would side with them). 10 minutes is not enought time, therefore i would side with player with facts i have. when were wagers placed???

im very inetersted in the outcome of sbrs arbitration.

[pokerplayer22]

this place is starting to remind me of WAGERHUB. someone not smart enough to figure out that the only way you would ever want to come on to a forum like this, is when you agree with them, or at least lie and say you see thier point,maybe with a "but". or how about this, just shut up and let it get settled quietly. i understand why people complain but for a book to come on here to argue is just stupid. this is forum started for people like me(gamblers) who need protection against people like you(books). i can only imagine what would happen to people like us without it. so do me a favor - pay the guy or at least stop telling us how right you are and how wrong we are. go tell SBR how right you are. that you are keeping his money. just like every other book that comes on here and just beats that dead horse with his reasons for stiiffing someone. you lose business. how much you lose is up to you. the more you talk - the more business you will lose. your move.

Well said!!

[relaaxx]

Why would you admit you canceled a wager after you changed the rules? Shouldn't the wager stand and all new wagers from that point forward be subject to the new rule?

wow - can't explain that slip up away - pay the man -