Sport Betting from France

[sgo]

As some of you might know, online gambling (including sports betting) is now regulated since a few weeks in France. The Regulation Agency is on http://www.arjel.fr/.

So if you are leaving in France, or leaving elsewhere and simply visiting France (then : keep your foreign postal adress and use an abroad IP@ and it should work...), you will have trouble betting on your favorite booky !

As a consequence only in-France-licenced rooms are allowed to accept players located in France.
Getting such a licence requires to respect a set of quite complicated rules, including amongst other :
- paying some fixed fee;
- paying 7.5% of all sports bets as a tax;
- having a dedicated www.bookname.fr site;
- re-routing all traffic from France from the www.bookname.com site to the www.bookname.fr site
- refusing to open (and even closing) any account to French located players, on the www.bookname.com site, and on any similar site from any parent-compagny;
- not paying more than 85% back to players on average (it was about 80% for soccer WC);
- getting some 'contract' with event organisers (for events in France, or organised by some french entity) before offering bets on their events (and paying the organisers, who should use this money to fight against fraud).

Players located in France were "kicked out" (account closed, money back) from many non licensed bookies (which could get large fines if they still accept players located in France), especially those having any subsidiary in European Union (a long list, unfortunately).

The French regulator has started to put on court some bookies which do not respect this law (interwetten and CentreBet which closed their French players accounts, and Stryyke Entertainment, Betfred and Stanjames which did not close them up to now) and threatened a number of others (Globet, Jaxx,Betfred, 888sport, 10Bet, 32red, Betsson, Bet24, Betcris, Boylesports, PaddyPower, Jetbull,....).
Bookies could have to pay up to 100 000€/day according to the law.
Affiliates advertising for non-licenced bookies could also have big fines to pay.

One book (unibet) even "solds" 25 000 of its French located players to another (newly born, likely also unibet-owned) booky, but ... got no licence up to now (as a consequence ?).

Nothing seems to have happened (up to now) with asian bookies or 5d or pinny.

Licenced bookies are listed on http://www.arjel.fr/-Liste-des-operateurs-agrees-.html (this liste also includes licenced poker rooms). Anyway, they all have awfull odds.


The 85% return limitation is supposed to avoid betting addiction ... but there are still many "pure luck" games (eg instant scratch games) sold by the monopolistic (state owned) operator which induce much more addiction issues (according to doctors), and who are btw only offering about 50% return !

My analysis is that is actually more for a) collecting more money as taxes; b) enabling bookies to still make good profit with limited competition; c) taking the money from idiots.

[Hareeba!]

Hard to comprehend how a punter could hope to get value betting in that environment.

Add France to the list of countries to avoid, along with USA

Brilliant example of legislators having NFI what they are dealing with and how to make it work well for the punter and the government.

[chachi]

Nah ... after over a dozen years in England one realises the French simply don't want any non-French company or individual to profit from French citizens, and then also don't want any French company or citizen to make too much money while doing so ...

[laconic]

sgo, have French ISP's been asked to block the websites of non-licensed bookies?

[tachi]

Liberté, égalité, fraternité
Italy,France and Poland already accepted such legislation.

Belgium and Bulgaria -in the next 2 months.

Spain and Greece "think" to adopt it.

I'm very curious about the legality of this law.
It is a government bussiness if someone creates a website,but
it's not a government bussiness which website someone is visiting.

From the bookmakers point of view such legislation breaches the EU Directives
and should not be compatible.But the law is always powerless and never applies when the politic says other.

The European Commission already said YES to this law.
The Commission said NO only about the additional heavy measures in this legislation-
requirements for investitions in the country in past years,for operating land based bookmaker operations in past years,requirements for the bookmakers servers to
be in the territory of the country,etc.

The EU Commission said the law which obligates the online bookmakers to have a license and pay taxes in every one EU country is compatible with the EU law.

What will happen?Will we be forced to use agents and asian bookies?

[mrmarket]

I was shocked when I heard this news. The french have such a history of open economic activity and tolerance to foreign business. I was planning to fly out there in December for Christmas but with this news I will probably go somewhere more tolerant. I hear that the scenic vistas of Pyongyang are great that time of year.

[Ruifgalmeida]

Betfair didnt get lincense duh.
I am afraid that mine countries gets regulated like france ,I cant live without pinny and betfair.

[sgo]

sgo, have French ISP's been asked to block the websites of non-licensed bookies?

No. Up to now, the regulator is only pushing (non licensed) bookies (accepting France located customers) to court. But this seems enough to have nearly 50% of my bookies closing my account.
(In Italy, ISP have been asked, but this was not very efficient, as there are so many tricks and turnarrounds)

Liberté, égalité, fraternité
I'm very curious about the legality of this law.
From the bookmakers point of view such legislation breaches the EU Directives
..../.....
The European Commission already said YES to this law.
The Commission said NO only about the additional heavy measures in this legislation-
requirements for investitions in the country in past years,for operating land based bookmaker operations in past years,requirements for the bookmakers servers to
be in the territory of the country,etc.
.../....

Each online gaming operator with a licence must have some "front-end" server, located in France, which shall register all activities from each player (including e.g. each card received in poker !), and keep it safe. Only the Regulator shall have access to this information.

All licensed operator had to built such a front-end, and nearly all are using similar technology than what online banking companies are already using (and partnering with a few companies offering these tools), and spent probably millions of €s for this.

But France is still not China (no death penalty for online gaming ) and France law is not stating anything about (against) players who would play on non-licenced-online gaming rooms. By the way, the regulator is only "recommending" to player only to use licenced operators (while doing all his possible to make it nearly impossible for France located player to get accepted by any other operator)

Betfair didnt get lincense duh.
I am afraid that mine countries gets regulated like france ,I cant live without pinny and betfair.

You should get a postal address (and bank account, and utility bill, etc.) in some online-gaming-friendly place, and (for 5€/month) use a proxy/VPN enabling you to get an IP@ from this same place.

This leads to another "conclusion" :
d) the law might create new (not fully legal) business opportunity, for those providing such "tools" or "proxy/VPN".

[winM]

I hope our gov do the same thing!

[jackkkk2009]

Does france welcome us citizen to become their resident?

[tachi]

we should move in South America.

Durito,how is the life there?

[laconic]

sgo, I understand on top of the 7.5%, for horse racing there is an additional 8% (said to go to the french equine industry). 15.5% tax on stakes and a payout of 85% make it completely impossible for a bookmaker to offer fixed odds racing prices. Is this really just designed to keep a state monopoly of horse racing in France and prevent money leaking out of the PMU?

[tachi]

Bulgarian project-law imposes a fine from 500 to 1500 EUR and from 1 up to 3 years maximum in the prison if someone bet and knows that he is betting in a non-licensed from the Bulgarian gouvernment bookmaker.

Being a EU resident,I can't believe that there is no way to attack this law.

Till know,nobody in the world has been jailed for the simple fact he was betting on sports.
But my nazi gouvernment thinks they can do whatever they want.

It will be very interesting and media sensation if someone goes to the jail cause he bet. Will the rest of Europe accept this?

[chachi]

might be an interesting test of EU human rights legislation ...

[winM]

U can try it! C how?

[venice2222]

As usual, the french govt shows its incompetence.

[chachi]

They can't help but to do so

[jackkkk2009]

we should move in south america.

Durito,how is the life there?

we should move to chile for a while.

[teetime]

yes ,France is a nice country ,and i want to go there in the future !

[tachi]

I expected much more comments.
surely there are people with deeper knowledges.

or everyone prefers to bury his head in the sand?

[chachi]

You're talking about a new law, which has not been tested in the courts, and is a new rules regime. Who here, on a site which is predominantly non-european, would you think would be an expert in ramifications of something which is not well-known, tested in courts, or disseminated for discussion amongst the population affected?

EU law now states broadcasters can no longer limit reception of transmissions based upon boundaries on a map. Has this changed the BBCs policy on blocking internet reception or scrambling? Not in the slightest. The EU in many ways is a joke, most economies do not adhere to guidelines and countries do not incorporate EU wide requirements until after as many extensions as possible to avoid having to do so, etc etc etc.

I give it another 10 years at most, too many sovereignty issues remain which I cannot see being resolved.

[tachi]

it's not a brand new law.Italy and France apply it.

Many people believe the euro and the EU will disappear.
Both are franco-german projects to serve their geopolitical interests.
Only a big organisation like EU can compete with the worlds great powers.
Only the euro can compete with the $.
They will last.

[chachi]

I've lived and worked throught England and the EU since before the Euro was adopted. Not convinced the political will exists to maintain things as they are when (eventually) the sh!t really hits the fan currency-wise as it nearly did with Greece.

Anyway irrelevant to your post, apologies for going on a tangent.

[alling]

As usual, the french govt shows its incompetence.

At last you cant bet a game online in France.
If the french government is incompetent whats that make the US government? Tards??

[siabdo23]

they are both the same and I am afraid other countries will follow in their steps

[chachi]

I don't think this will be as big of a deal as it is being made out to be.

The EU court ruling in the Ladbroke's case simply stated that in the current lack of legalese each EU member is able to set out its own definition of 'illegal gaming' and 'reasonable requirements to transact business' ... which is what has kicked off.

Blatant protectionist moves in the past in other areas of business have not been upheld in EU courts, so they cannot just simply say foreign bookies are banned.

Requiring a bookie to have a local operation/holding company and retain all pertinent customer details in country will not be seen as being protectionist on its face, but refusing a license to a foreign company who is willing to fulfill local requirements for any reason is tantamount to begging to get sued.

The line in the sand as it were is the concept of 'reasonable requirements to transact business'.

In my semi-learned opinion, the angle to attack it would be to use the "financial services" model.

Any company, if legally registered and subject to a recognised oversight body, is able to offer investment services to any EU citizen anywhere within its borders, subject to local tax laws, etc.

If one can sit in the UK, be FSA registered, and legally take £100m of money to invest into a fund from a French citizen/firm, it would be difficult to argue that a UK recognised and regulated betting firm cannot provide its services to a French citizen under similar conditions.

Or have I missed something?

[sgo]

it's not a brand new law.Italy and France apply it.

The laws in Italy (since 2 years I believe), and in France (since 2 months), are quite different, even if both have some similarities. Maybe within some time, both regulators will make some agreements, and players from .it and .fr will be able to bet on teh same bookies, and play poker at the same tables, and later some other regulator might even join this group...

Bookies like matchbook or betfair are presently prohibited by these law. Let's hope one day it will be possible to have those too (otherwise, they will have to stay offshore).

At least, this regulation should avoid to get some bookies slow paying (or not paying at all)... even if the booky was A+ for SBR some times ago (eg. wsex, "registered" in Costa Rica, registration which in fact provides ZERO waranty).

It is true that the law in France is pretty new, and was nearly never tested on court, and that many actors (rooms, regulator, courts, players, affiliates, etc.) have to find their place within this new context.

[tachi]

I have studied law for a while and even European law.

The superiority of the law can be real,can be zero.Humans apply it and
humans decide when/if/how much of the law to apply.

When there is a contradiction between laws only a high court instance can decide which is the "right one".The judges in high courts in every country are
chosen by the political parties in the country.And their work is not to apply the "right" law,but to decide what the party tells them.

From other part,the EU court is weak.Many interests,many influences.
The decisions of the EU court regarding online betting are contradictive and
there is no higher instance to decide which is the "right one''.

As a conclusion,foreign bookies don't have any chance.

[Ruifgalmeida]

what country do you live in, high courts is not chosen by political parties, that is call facism

[tachi]

what country do you live in, high courts is not chosen by political parties, that is call facism

sorry the exact terms are by the Parliament and by the President.
Read the Constitution of your country and you'll read that.

[sgo]

sorry the exact terms are by the Parliament and by the President.
Read the Constitution of your country and you'll read that.

Well, generally these guys (or ladies) for the High Court are chosen by the Parliament or/and the President, but afterwards cannot be removed by the Parliament or President. Thus, there is a good chance they will not obey the President/Parliament, but follow their own conscience (or interrest, if you are pessimistic), and as they are (when nominated) supposed to be good guys/ladies, there is still hope.

[sgo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by laconic sgo, have French ISP's been asked to block the websites of non-licensed bookies?

No. Up to now, the regulator is only pushing (non licensed) bookies (accepting France located customers) to court. But this seems enough to have nearly 50% of my bookies closing my account.
(In Italy, ISP have been asked, but this was not very efficient, as there are so many tricks and turnarrounds)
....

It appears the regulator has now asked french ISPs to block access to (non-licenced bookies) betfred, stanjames, and stryyke. This was even asked by putting the 7 main ISP to Paris (TGI) court on July 28th.

The ISPs have refused, arguing the bookies had not even been put on the same court (so had no opportunity to produce arguments), that it was hard, innefficient, and dangerous to block access to some sites, and that the blocking shall first be imposed to the technical host of the sites. Court will make a first decision early august. (source : La Tribune)

[Teddy_KGB]

Anybody has news about this topic? Example, what's the situation in Poland nowadays? I see France is banned almost everywhere... but... how could France achieve that ban the players even at the costa rican Pinnaclesports? Did they threat the bookies or what? And if tomorrow example the albanian goverment would send a request that please ban the players from Albania, would the bookies do that?

Also I chatted with 188bet, and they said they accept players from France... now how is it possible? (Maybe 188bet have balls, and did not shit themselves).

And what about Italy? I heard they have blocked many sites, but example at Betfair, Italy is still available.. so an italian can use Betfair with VPN (to get foreign IP adress)?

[Max009]

As some of you might know, online gambling (including sports betting) is now regulated since a few weeks in France. The Regulation Agency is on http://www.arjel.fr/.

So if you are leaving in France, or leaving elsewhere and simply visiting France (then : keep your foreign postal adress and use an abroad IP@ and it should work...), you will have trouble betting on your favorite booky !

As a consequence only in-France-licenced rooms are allowed to accept players located in France.
Getting such a licence requires to respect a set of quite complicated rules, including amongst other :
- paying some fixed fee;
- paying 7.5% of all sports bets as a tax;
- having a dedicated www.bookname.fr site;
- re-routing all traffic from France from the www.bookname.com site to the www.bookname.fr site
- refusing to open (and even closing) any account to French located players, on the www.bookname.com site, and on any similar site from any parent-compagny;
- not paying more than 85% back to players on average (it was about 80% for soccer WC);
- getting some 'contract' with event organisers (for events in France, or organised by some french entity) before offering bets on their events (and paying the organisers, who should use this money to fight against fraud).

Players located in France were "kicked out" (account closed, money back) from many non licensed bookies (which could get large fines if they still accept players located in France), especially those having any subsidiary in European Union (a long list, unfortunately).

The French regulator has started to put on court some bookies which do not respect this law (interwetten and CentreBet which closed their French players accounts, and Stryyke Entertainment, Betfred and Stanjames which did not close them up to now) and threatened a number of others (Globet, Jaxx,Betfred, 888sport, 10Bet, 32red, Betsson, Bet24, Betcris, Boylesports, PaddyPower, Jetbull,....).
Bookies could have to pay up to 100 000€/day according to the law.
Affiliates advertising for non-licenced bookies could also have big fines to pay.

One book (unibet) even "solds" 25 000 of its French located players to another (newly born, likely also unibet-owned) booky, but ... got no licence up to now (as a consequence ?).

Nothing seems to have happened (up to now) with asian bookies or 5d or pinny.

Licenced bookies are listed on http://www.arjel.fr/-Liste-des-operateurs-agrees-.html (this liste also includes licenced poker rooms). Anyway, they all have awfull odds.


The 85% return limitation is supposed to avoid betting addiction ... but there are still many "pure luck" games (eg instant scratch games) sold by the monopolistic (state owned) operator which induce much more addiction issues (according to doctors), and who are btw only offering about 50% return !

My analysis is that is actually more for a) collecting more money as taxes; b) enabling bookies to still make good profit with limited competition; c) taking the money from idiots.

If your from France and want the same lines you used to get at Pinnacle you can use www.parlaymakers.com.
Problem solved.

[Hareeba!]

If your from France and want the same lines you used to get at Pinnacle you can use www.parlaymakers.com.
Problem solved.

oh yeah?
what about the 2%?