WagerWeb's heavy-handed tactics against professional players

**bigloser** · 11-20-07, 02:19 PM

If they have declared as professional players then they have broken Wagerweb T&Cs

"Wagerweb is for recreational players only."

If all they have lost is the bonus (and not winnings related to the bonus) then that seems fare.
Just cash out
A lot worse is going on at the moment - this does not seem excessive.

**bigloser** · 11-20-07, 02:21 PM

And by the way - this is no more than VIP do. Perhaps a warning against playing thier too.

**durito** · 11-20-07, 02:23 PM

Professional players shouldn't be taking bonuses anyway.

**noyb** · 11-20-07, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by durito

Professional players shouldn't be taking bonuses anyway.

why shouldn't they? books that don't want professional action are gonna cut your limits anyway, whether you take the bonus or not.
if forfeiting the bonus (a gesture from the part of the player) would lead to the book promising to keep limits intact (a gesture from the part of the book), I would be all for that.
But that's not how it works, even if you don't take the bonus, the book is gonna cut and boot you anyway, so what's the point.

**jjgold** · 11-20-07, 03:24 PM

wagerweb is not even a top 50 book

why would anyone play there?

**20Four7** · 11-20-07, 03:24 PM

If the players got an invite only reload and they book cancels it's wrong. Pro or no pro.

A blanket statement that pro's are not welcome is a very difficult one in the T&C's.

Again you get into the argument over who is a pro?. If I make 6 figures at a real job and can afford a dime a game am I a pro?

If I don't have a job and gamble for a living and bet $200-500 a game am I a pro?

I think now it comes down to the books have lost the fish and the whales and have only educated bettors making plays. Anyone who shows consistancy in winning is shown the door.

In the end most of these disputes all come down to bonus money don't they. If the book doesn't want to part with it don't give it away. It's sad that rather than be real bookmakers these guys want losers to play.

**Patrick McIrish** · 11-20-07, 03:30 PM

20Four7 is correct, who's to say what the definition of a pro is? I can tell you this, from book to book the answer will change drastically.

**bigloser** · 11-20-07, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Patrick McIrish

20Four7 is correct, who's to say what the definition of a pro is? I can tell you this, from book to book the answer will change drastically.

Which is why I say

"if they have declared as professional players" Justin certainly regards them as such.

Despite this all the book has done is withdrawn a bonus !

Is this such a crime?

Betonline use similar tricks. Sign you up with the promise of 7-1 parlay odds and then withdraw the offer if you actually make a bet at these odds.

Guess the difference is the banner

**noyb** · 11-20-07, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by bigloser

Despite this all the book has done is withdrawn a bonus !

as I understand it, they did not even do that. they limited the players in question to 1$ a bet, making it virtually (but not totally) impossible to meet the required rollover.

i don't see how the book did anything they were not allowed too, but i'm sure we can all agree this is pretty lame behaviour.

**Shark79** · 11-20-07, 04:39 PM

Worked at wager web ... but for professional reason ... I will not comment on there ppl ... good luck though to all those that encountered this problem

**Doug** · 11-20-07, 04:57 PM

WW should either pro-rate the bonus, or allow the RO to be completed, then boot the player they don't want.

**magnavox** · 11-20-07, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Doug

WW should either pro-rate the bonus, or allow the RO to be completed, then boot the player they don't want.

That's exactly what Bill was saying for years; also, if this was a freeplay bonus, it should be honored in full (if it's a winner and the player got a chance to use it).

**marc** · 11-20-07, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by bigloser

Which is why I say

"

Despite this all the book has done is withdrawn a bonus !

Is this such a crime?

stealing the bonus is no different than stealing someones deposit. Once a bonus is given, and the player obeys the term of the bonus, that money belongs to him.

( out of 10 times pinnacle will have a better line than WW. These players could easily have been giving thier action to another book where they could well have gotten better lines. The bonus though is supposed to compensate them for the fact that thier lines are awful. But when WW takes away the bonus, it's not like they are offering to credit back all of the lost vig.

Furthermore, these are free play bonuses. It's one thing when a book gives you a $500 cash bonus, and then takes awya $500 in cash. It's quite another when they give you a $500 free play bonus whihc is worth anywhere from $250 - $425 depending on how you use it. Then you bet it on a +500 dog and win $2500, then the book comes back and says we're not just confiscating the inital $250 value of the free play we gave you, instead we're confiscating the $2500 in winnings.

YEs, that is outright theft pure and simple. And if they refuse to budge on this, they should be downgraded to a d-.

**curious** · 11-20-07, 08:12 PM

How do they determine that a player is a "professional" player? Because the player wins? Then they should change their T&C to say "we do not accept players who win". Mother ****ers.

**robmpink** · 11-20-07, 09:17 PM

I wonder if one of the affected people will elaborate on some of the bets they made which may have triggered this decision. I'm curious. Any average Joe could go on a winning streak and it raises some caution. I went back to wagerweb in September based on the 50% reload. I haven't had any problems and probably re-uped with them 20-30 times getting the 50% bonus each time. This of course came at the approval of the VIP host. I usually deposit $100-$500 and cashed out for $500 a month ago and $1,000 today. The book is ok in my book, but I'm not a sharp.

**Thremp** · 11-20-07, 09:23 PM

This is very bogus. I supported Wager Web. Despite taking their monies. Not cool to give 0 chance at finishing the WR.

**robmpink** · 11-20-07, 09:30 PM

I could be wrong but I thought this bonus was capped at $500 freeplay. I could be wrong and exceptions could be made. The bonus came with a 10 time rollover. If the affected people are desperate and want to take a chance to get all of the $$$ they could play in the casino to meet the rollover.

**marc** · 11-20-07, 09:52 PM

JT kicked me out about a year ago. At that time he was willing to prorate the bonus.

Here is the basic definition of pro - person who bets primarily on money lines. Or a person who places bets which aren't really steam, but at the end of the day, the line almost always moves thier way. Or a person who only bets on thier line when they have the best line available

**louis** · 11-20-07, 09:54 PM

Once they determine they no longer want the players action, if the player had a rollover requirement, they should prorate the bonus for the amount of play that was done, and then let the player withdraw. That is the fair way to handle this.

**bigboydan** · 11-20-07, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by durito

Professional players shouldn't be taking bonuses anyway.

I respectfully disagree with your statement Durito.

I think noyb said it best above. If a book is going to offer it, then you damn right I encourage professional players to accept it as long as it's within the rules. I mean it's the books fault for offering juicy bonuses... Not the players fault at all for taking them up on it, even despite if their an advantage player or not.

**tacomax** · 11-20-07, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by bigboydan

I think noyb said it best above. If a book is going to offer it, then you damn right I encourage professional players to accept it as long as it's within the rules. I mean it's the books fault for offering juicy bonuses... Not the players fault at all for taking them up on it, even despite if their an advantage player or not.

Indeed. If you don't want "professional action" taking bonuses then simply limit anyone taking a bonus to $500 bets. And no moneyline plays counting. The list of T&Cs they can introduce is endless to stop people they don't want from claiming their bonuses.

**marc** · 11-20-07, 11:20 PM

Part of the problem in general is this stupid free play bonus. Books love to offer free play bonuses, becuase then they could advertise 50% bonuses instead of 25% bonuses. But when you offer free play bonuses, there is no fair way to cancel them out later. If you take the winnings from the free play, the player can fairly argue, that had you not given him the free play bonus, he would have made the same bet usinfg the funds he deposited. You can't take cash out of the accoutn because free play money is not the same as cash. So there isn't even a good way to prorate the bonus.

If WW thinks the player is a pro, it doesn't make sense for them to let the players continue to play becaus ethat would be a losing proposition for them them. The only right thing for them to do is to let them kepp ALL the money and just ask them to leave.

**curious** · 11-20-07, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by marc

JT kicked me out about a year ago. At that time he was willing to prorate the bonus.

Here is the basic definition of pro - person who bets primarily on money lines. Or a person who places bets which aren't really steam, but at the end of the day, the line almost always moves thier way. Or a person who only bets on thier line when they have the best line available

So, they only want idiots playing at their book? Anyone with half a brain knows to watch the lines and take the most advantageous line. I play moneylines all the time. Especially in college football. ON big dogs where I think the linesmakers are just wrong I put 2X on the spread and X on the moneyline. I hit a +1200 at least once a month doing that. I hit +500 and +600 about once a week.

I usually bet favorites as soon as the line opens and I usually bet dogs just before game time.

I think it boils down to if you win. Someone doing the things you said, if they lose, would not have a problem.

**Bill Dozer** · 11-21-07, 12:11 AM

How much of a professional you are depends on how fast that book is at moving the lines. At Pinnacle and CRIS you are a pro if you create the move. You are a syndicate player if you hit that first big move at almost the same time as player #1. You are a pro at 5Dimes and a BetOnline if you play those moves set in motion by the pros at CRIS and Pinnacle. You are a pro at recreational books like BetJam and VIP if you just watch moves at the aforementioned books. You are a pro at Bet365 if you use SBRlines.

**curious** · 11-21-07, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Bill Dozer

How much of a professional you are depends on how fast that book is at moving the lines. At Pinnacle and CRIS you are a pro if you create the move. You are a syndicate player if you hit that first big move at almost the same time as player #1. You are a pro at 5Dimes and a BetOnline if you play those moves set in motion by the pros at CRIS and Pinnacle. You are a pro at recreational books like BetJam and VIP if you just watch moves at the aforementioned books. You are a pro at Bet365 if you use SBRlines.

So, anyone who does not just blindly throw their money away is a "pro"??? Then why don't they put that in their T&C: "We only want action from idiots, if you are not an idiot we do not want your action".

Of course most of the posters in the SBR Forum could freely play there. LOL

**louis** · 11-21-07, 03:38 AM

Not taking professional action can hurt a sportsbook

And books like CRIS and Pinnacle don't mind the professional action. It is funny that the most successful books, Olympic, CRIS, WSEX, Pinnacle, are those that take professional action. Those that do not, tend to be smaller books, that are not leaders - they simply follow the lines of the others, and then get upset, because they can't match the other's line movement instantaneously. There are big advantageous to a book in taking professional action. Check out those books right now that already have a line up on the Pats game, and those that do not. A book that takes professional action hangs up its line's early, and also gets some recreational action from people who want to bet early in the week - especially books like WSEX, and Olympic. These books are getting some recreational action.

A book like bodoglife, what a bunch of babies, they're afraid to even put up a line on the game because they are going to get unbalanced action just copying the line at Pinnacle and Cris. They don't have pros to lower their exposure and risk, by helping them set the line and taking the opposite side of the public. If they put up a line that is too big, like -25, they will start to lose even recreational customers who will see that bodog is ripping them off. So bodog will probably have to wait until the last day to put up their line, when a lot of folks have just gone and bet somewhere else.

Bill was talking about the definition of a pro. At bodog, anyone who bets Dogs is a pro. There are even recreational players, who keep betting their favorite team at Bodog; a team like Miami, and these bodoglife babies will start giving them dual lines instead of just telling them they only want people who will bet the favs.

**magnavox** · 11-21-07, 02:40 PM

As louis says, you're a pro at Bodog if you just play dogs. However, they don't cut the limits, bonuses are not taken away. They deal dual lines and you are just swithed over.

Of course WW can cut limits and kick you out if they even can't afford Bodog's style of taking action.

But, as outlined earlier, cash bonuses need to be pro-rated, FP paid in full, if taken advantage of.