1. #1
    tadman
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    Pinnacle's 5 x Deposit Rollover

    Hi,

    I'm new to the forum and just wondered if the more experienced on here could explain the Pinnacle 5 x deposit rollover, and correct me if my analysis is wrong. (I hope it is)!

    It says EACH deposit must rolled over 5 times, which can surely only be done provided you don't lose it all. For instance you pay in 100 for your very first deposit. You now have to place a minimum of 500 in bets before you can withdraw without a fee.

    Let's say you lost all your 100. (You've only rolled your deposit over once). So you deposit another 400, hoping you might eventually make a profit and be able to withdraw some winnings from that first deposit without a fee. But according to the rules as I see them, you now have to bet 2000 minimum to rollover the 400 deposit, so you're caught in a rising 'ratchet'!

    ie your LAST deposit is the only thing that matters, and not the TOTAL you've deposited since joining?

    Thanks to anyone who can clear this up for me

    tadman

  2. #2
    Hareeba!
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    I don't believe the mechanics of it have ever been fully explained and the point you raise remains a serious ongoing concern.

    Subject well and truly canvassed in this thread: http://www.sportsbookreview.com/forum/sportsbook...idding-me.html

  3. #3
    tadman
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    Thanks for the reply Hareeba.

    I'd just like to mention here, for continuity's sake, that Pinnacle will not only charge for withdrawals if you don't rollover your deposit 5 times.

    They will charge for the DEPOSIT as well! (retrospectively obviously). This just can't be right, surely?

    EDITED: (Pinnacle say they WON'T charge if you lose your deposit. But does that mean you must lose it all, down to a zero balance, before depositing again, to avoid a charge)? I'll keep you posted. This has got to be made crystal clear.

    tadman
    Last edited by tadman; 06-16-14 at 06:27 AM.

  4. #4
    tadman
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    Had it confirmed by Pinnacle.

    Yes, you must either completely lose your deposit or roll it over 5 times to avoid the processing charge.


    tadman
    Points Awarded:

    sbavi gave tadman 2 Betpoint(s) for this post.


  5. #5
    sbavi
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadman View Post
    Had it confirmed by Pinnacle.

    Yes, you must either completely lose your deposit or roll it over 5 times to avoid the processing charge.


    tadman
    Thanks for getting this issue confirmed.

  6. #6
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadman View Post
    Had it confirmed by Pinnacle.

    Yes, you must either completely lose your deposit or roll it over 5 times to avoid the processing charge.


    tadman
    That's just not reasonable.

    Deposit $5,000, lose $4,900 straight up, deposit another $5,000 and you are required to turnover $45,100 with it!

  7. #7
    tadman
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    No problem sbavi.

    That's right Hareeba. But according to Pinnacle the vast majority of their customers have no difficulty rolling over their deposits 5 times. Some on here have testified to that, quoting bet sizes and profits I could only dream of at present.

    Seeing as the only way you can re-bet a deposit 5 times is if you are consistently winning more than you losing, the vast majority of their customers must be in profit.

    What more can I say!

    tadman

  8. #8
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadman View Post
    No problem sbavi.

    That's right Hareeba. But according to Pinnacle the vast majority of their customers have no difficulty rolling over their deposits 5 times. Some on here have testified to that, quoting bet sizes and profits I could only dream of at present.

    Seeing as the only way you can re-bet a deposit 5 times is if you are consistently winning more than you losing, the vast majority of their customers must be in profit.

    What more can I say!

    tadman
    Even it true, that doesn't make it right.

    My last deposit is (fortunately) way over the x5 turnover but the problem is I'm reluctant to withdraw some of it now as I know that if I have a poor run and need to redeposit I have to turnover x5 all over again. I get no credit carry-forward for the excess turnover on my last deposit.

  9. #9
    tadman
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    Hareeba

    I'm not sure whether you are allowed any carry-over, but the rule says each deposit, not an accumulation, which would seem to mean you've got to make a profit from each deposit separately.

    It poses numerous questions of course, and I strongly advise you (and anyone else with different queries/scenarios) to email Pinnacle and eventually we may be able to pool our knowledge and fill in the gaps.

    tadman

  10. #10
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadman View Post
    Hareeba

    I'm not sure whether you are allowed any carry-over, but the rule says each deposit, not an accumulation, which would seem to mean you've got to make a profit from each deposit separately.

    It poses numerous questions of course, and I strongly advise you (and anyone else with different queries/scenarios) to email Pinnacle and eventually we may be able to pool our knowledge and fill in the gaps.

    tadman
    I did email them with some scenarios when it first came out. I got contradictory responses!
    At least at that stage the support staff didn't seem to have a handle on the situation.
    I repeatedly posted requests in this forum that SBR get clarification from Pinnacle for all of us.

  11. #11
    tadman
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    You're right Hareeba, SBR ought to be following this up.

  12. #12
    allang198
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    unreal if this is true

    pinny turning into bookmaker

  13. #13
    dealer wins
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    Maybe it would be a good idea to deposit smaller amounts. IE divide what you plan to deposit by 5 or even 10 and perform multiple deposits.

    If you need to deposit 5000, deposit 1000 5 times.

    Then if your balance goes down to under 1000, only the 1 rollover on a single 1000 remains?

    This rule could lead to a knew term, "deposit abuse" LOL

  14. #14
    pjesnik24
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    I like it how they say industry standard 5 times rollover LOL

  15. #15
    hurricane1091
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    I think 5Dimes only makes you rollover once. It's a confusing subject. I thought high rollovers like this only happened if you took a bonus.

  16. #16
    kmarinouofm
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    but if u pay the fee.. u can withdrawal right ?

  17. #17
    pjesnik24
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    yes, you can. I asked them how they made the conclusion that a 5 times rollover is industry standard and they replied that they do not know much about other sportsbooks LOL

  18. #18
    jimmy991
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    Does anyone actually still use Pinnacle since this new rule? I used to wager a huge amount there but haven't even deposited there since.

  19. #19
    piterp
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    This rules make betting with them pointless - better use betfair smarkets or matchbook.

  20. #20
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy991 View Post
    Does anyone actually still use Pinnacle since this new rule? I used to wager a huge amount there but haven't even deposited there since.
    Yes, I'm using them but haven't made a deposit since I became aware of this awful rule and don't intend to.

    Fortunately my last deposit has now been turned over way beyond 5 times but the rule is making me reluctant to make a withdrawal in case I then have a losing run and need to make a new deposit.

    There should be some sort of carry forward credit to avoid this unfair situation.

  21. #21
    jjgold
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    The book has changed slightly as Americans were phased out

    It does have more every euro feel to it

    The lower juice is still one of the best out there which does help

    Not limiting players and paying very very fast still makes it one of the top three books in the world

    So if you put $1000 and make one Bet and win how much is the withdrawal fee for $1000?

  22. #22
    relaaxx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareeba! View Post
    Yes, I'm using them but haven't made a deposit since I became aware of this awful rule and don't intend to.

    Fortunately my last deposit has now been turned over way beyond 5 times but the rule is making me reluctant to make a withdrawal in case I then have a losing run and need to make a new deposit.

    There should be some sort of carry forward credit to avoid this unfair situation.
    maybe this is the exact reason for the rollover. customers will be reluctant to withdraw now. i get it. but 5xx is too much. should be like 2xx tops.

  23. #23
    pjesnik24
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    It is 30US$
    However, if you have 15$ in your account and you deposit 5000, make a bet, lose it, deposit again 5000 and win you have to pay 300 to withdraw

    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    The book has changed slightly as Americans were phased out

    It does have more every euro feel to it

    The lower juice is still one of the best out there which does help

    Not limiting players and paying very very fast still makes it one of the top three books in the world

    So if you put $1000 and make one Bet and win how much is the withdrawal fee for $1000?

  24. #24
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjgold View Post
    The book has changed slightly as Americans were phased out

    It does have more every euro feel to it

    The lower juice is still one of the best out there which does help

    Not limiting players and paying very very fast still makes it one of the top three books in the world

    So if you put $1000 and make one Bet and win how much is the withdrawal fee for $1000?
    I believe it depends on how much you won as you can withdraw your winnings free.
    So if your bet was at evens or better there would be no withdrawal fee but you'd still have to wager another $4,000 to be able to withdraw your balance fee free.
    If your bet was at 1.80 so you won only $800, you'd have to pay a $6 withdrawal fee on the extra $200.

  25. #25
    dealer wins
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    As a (former) reasonably big player, (100000 p/m turnover easily) I have now reduced my betting and balance in Pinnacle by about 90%. Their loss!!

    Thankfully Matchbook have come along at the perfect time and offer decent odds that quite often beat Pinnacle, and they dont have a 5x deposit BS rule!!

    Pinny, from 5* hero to 1* zero

  26. #26
    JoeyBagels
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    I don't know how anyone can't see this as a red flag for one of the supposedly sharpest bookmakers in the world. Build a reputation on low juice only to slap on rollover requirements (whose terms aren't specified anywhere besides through personal communications with punters & have poor conditions attatched to them) and STILL claim they still have the best bonus structure on the market. There is NO SAFETY at pinnacle so anyone considering it over some other shop should remove this from their evaluation immediately.

    Also the increased soliciation via e-mail over the last year when you hardly heard a peep out of them otherwise is a cause for concern. Sometime is wrong with their business IMO.

  27. #27
    jjgold
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    I think there volume and active customer base is down
    I even see the juice getting a little higher on baseball games thats because lack of volume

    It might be reason now for fees

  28. #28
    BeardedTaco
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    bump

    with the addition of the new 5x rollover rule, did they take away the "unnecessary deposit rule" or did they keep it?

    for anyone not aware of the "unnecessary deposit rule" it was sort of an unclear rule that said that if you had enough funds to go about your normal wagering that any additional deposits would not be eligible for withdrawal.

  29. #29
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeardedTaco View Post
    bump

    with the addition of the new 5x rollover rule, did they take away the "unnecessary deposit rule" or did they keep it?

    for anyone not aware of the "unnecessary deposit rule" it was sort of an unclear rule that said that if you had enough funds to go about your normal wagering that any additional deposits would not be eligible for withdrawal.
    any such rule would now be superfluous as you'd need to wager the deposit 5 times or pay a 3% withdrawal fee but pretty sure you can withdraw it

    your best shot is to ask Pinnacle, not a forum

  30. #30
    dynamite140
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeardedTaco View Post
    bump

    with the addition of the new 5x rollover rule, did they take away the "unnecessary deposit rule" or did they keep it?

    for anyone not aware of the "unnecessary deposit rule" it was sort of an unclear rule that said that if you had enough funds to go about your normal wagering that any additional deposits would not be eligible for withdrawal.


    This rule is pretty ridiculous but still very vague. Example someone deposits $5000 into pinnacle but then loses and only have say $300 left in their account. Say they risked $5500. Their original rollover is $25000.


    Say they want to risk $1000 today on 1 game just to make it simple or want to do it in 2 bets. Apparently you first have to risk your last $300 first, then deposit the other $700, then bet it all. So obviously if you lose the bets, you have 0 balance. But what happens when you then end up with a balance thats not zero? So your rollover now is... $700x5= $3500 plus the original $5000x5 = $25000 but you risked only $5500 and the $1000 just now so its $25000-$5500-$10000= $19500+$3500 so its $23000? The thing that is strange about this policy is unless you bust your account, you will never rollover.


    So the example Hareeba used where you deposit $5000 then lose $4900 and have $100 balance... then deposit $4900 again... I don't believe your rollover will ever get cleared because don't you need to lose the $100 first fully? Thus having it pending won't work? I believe you need to lose the $100 first before you could deposit again otherwise the unnecesary rule comes into play? Thus this rule just doesn't make sense at all. No one betting a good amount of money a game is waiting to see if their $100 bet to clear their balance wins or not. So if they win it, now its $190. So they can't deposit until the $190 is gone? Thats beyond a waste of time. Thus that person first has to wager $100 on a game, then deposit another $4900? Or you deposit whatever you need just for that day? Thus if you only wanted to risk $1500 that day, only deposit $1400 more after the $100 wager? I also think you need to risk the $100 first before you deposit the other $1400 because if you deposit the $1400 first, then have a $1500 balance then risk it all... does unnecessary deposit rule come to play?


    At first I thought its actually better to deposit bigger amounts such as 5 figures plus because of this but the more you think about it, the same thing can happen if you deposit $20000 at once then have a balance thats $1500 and would obviously be needing to risk more than $1500 that day the next time.


    Does anyone here understand how it works if u don't bust your deposit fully? I spoke to support about this and they gave me an answer buts its very vague. Says to just look at the rule but i gave them this scenario and i didn"t get a clear answer. Because the way they describe things, its not going to be possible to complete rollover unless you bust your account. I would say the correct thing would be 5x on total deposits is fine but this whole unnecessary rule thing seems complicated where i believe CS is very confused as well.


    I have no issue with rollover since i would meet it very easily but in this scenario with the unnecessary deposit rule, its basically impossible to rollover. Your rollover could be $100,000 but then you need to deposit more then what happens? Your rollover is now $200,000? I have no issue with the pinnacle 5x deposit rule but the unnecessary deposit rule is both horrible and makes no sense. If someone were to deposit more money even if they have enough funds... they should just 5x whatever they reloaded. Example say someone deposited $5000. Wagered $3000 and now has $1000 balance. So now they have $22000 more in rollover. If they deposit $3000 more, then their rollover should be $3000x5 = $15000 plus the $22000 that is left so $37000... but the way they describe it... unless you bust your original $1000 that was left... you never roll it over.



    Curious if anyone understands this rule.

  31. #31
    Optional
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    What you describe is standard for calculating rollover at every book.

    You need to zero balance your account before re-depositing or the previous rollover remains valid.

  32. #32
    dynamite140
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    Pinnacle rule is not the same as the other books. Basically the standard rule doesn't apply here unless you lost your original deposit...which many times won't happen. Does this make sense in what im saying?


    Look at Hareeba example. You deposit 5k, then only have 100 dollar balance left. Let say you wagered 10k out of 25k rollover and have 15k rollover left with $100 balance. You deposit 5k again. What is your rollover? I do not believe its original 15k + the 5000 x 5 = $15k+$25k= $40000. Basically unless you lose the $100 left in your account first, the rollover will never clear. The rollover could be low 6 figures then mid 6 figures than low 7 figures until you lose the original $100 first because you didn't zero that balance first. Also im not sure what constitute zero balance. Do you have to lose the last $100 first or as long as you placed a bet and its pending, thats zeroed?


    This rule is extremely complicated.

  33. #33
    Hareeba!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynamite140 View Post
    Pinnacle rule is not the same as the other books. Basically the standard rule doesn't apply here unless you lost your original deposit...which many times won't happen. Does this make sense in what im saying?


    Look at Hareeba example. You deposit 5k, then only have 100 dollar balance left. Let say you wagered 10k out of 25k rollover and have 15k rollover left with $100 balance. You deposit 5k again. What is your rollover? I do not believe its original 15k + the 5000 x 5 = $15k+$25k= $40000. Basically unless you lose the $100 left in your account first, the rollover will never clear. The rollover could be low 6 figures then mid 6 figures than low 7 figures until you lose the original $100 first because you didn't zero that balance first. Also im not sure what constitute zero balance. Do you have to lose the last $100 first or as long as you placed a bet and its pending, thats zeroed?


    This rule is extremely complicated.
    Worse that complicated because Pinnacle has never explained the workings of how they apply it.

  34. #34
    Optional
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    Honestly I don't know what's up with you two. Are you just trying to make it complicated?

    If you don't lose all your money the rollover from that deposit remains in place. Its simple.

    And whats this crap about you can never complete rollover? I have no clue what on earth you are trying to say Dynamite.

    If you end up with a 40k rollover as in your example, either bet 40k or lose the account balance and your rollover is done.

    This is not complex at all.

  35. #35
    Optional
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    And considering you both obviously know that you need to zero the account, you definitely wont ever have an issue, will you?

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