Has anyone noticed being consistently paid under market on bookmaker bitcoin payouts?

**rangerz2478** · 09-28-16, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by luctens

It really is stupid when people are so het up with 1% coming off their money for deposits and withdrawals, but the vast majority of the sort of players that would moan about this sort of thing can't be bothered to try and improve their actual betting, and putting some proper effort in to actually improve your betting will dramatically improve your betting returns more than any 1% here or there when you make a deposit or withdrawal.

So the message is, if you're so obsessed with getting the absolute best return on your money, look closer to home to your own betting strategies as that is where you will have the chance to make by far the most dramatic difference to your betting returns.

One of the more ignorant posts I have ever read on here.

Clearly your volume isn't enough where 1% can add up. But for me, it does. And others who actually do this for a living will tell you that 1% is nothing to sniff at.

**evo34** · 09-28-16, 07:48 PM

He gets upset whenever anyone mentions Bitcoin and/or a book other than Pinnacle, and then posts something completely off-topic in protest.

**luctens** · 09-28-16, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by rangerz2478

One of the more ignorant posts I have ever read on here.

Clearly your volume isn't enough where 1% can add up. But for me, it does. And others who actually do this for a living will tell you that 1% is nothing to sniff at.

It's not an ignorant post whatsoever, I am making an extremely valid point.

Of course 1% coming off your money isn't a good thing, but the point I was making is that the vast majority of players that would be moaning about this 1% fee wouldn't be doing even the basic things necessary to hone their betting strategy in the first place to make the absolute best possible returns on their betting. And doing the things necessary to improve their betting strategy would give them the chance to bring them improved returns far in excess of the impact of any 1% fees.

So the message is, before even thinking about moaning about 1% fees, get your own house in order first and do everything necessary to sort out your own betting strategy, which would have the chance to bring far improved betting returns which would far outweigh the impact of any 1% fees.

**rangerz2478** · 09-28-16, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by luctens

It's not an ignorant post whatsoever, I am making an extremely valid point.

Of course 1% coming off your money isn't a good thing, but the point I was making is that the vast majority of players that would be moaning about this 1% fee wouldn't be doing even the basic things necessary to hone their betting strategy in the first place to make the absolute best returns on their betting. And doing the things necessary to improve their betting strategy would bring them returns far in excess of the impact of any 1% fees.

So the message is, before even thinking about moaning about 1% fees, get your own house in order and do everything necessary yourself to sort out your own betting strategy first, which would bring improved betting returns which would far outweigh any 1% fees.

You're being ignorant because you know absolutely nothing about my own betting strategies/situation and assume someone complaining about it falls into the category that you think they belong in.

Well I'll just tell you this, you're wrong, and you aren't in my ballpark.

**luctens** · 09-28-16, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by evo34

He gets upset whenever anyone mentions Bitcoin and/or a book other than Pinnacle, and then posts something completely off-topic in protest.

The same goes to you. I'm making an extremely valid point and whether a thread has anything to with Bitcoin or Pinnacle has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it.

**luctens** · 09-28-16, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by rangerz2478

You're being ignorant because you know absolutely nothing about my own betting strategies/situation and assume someone complaining about it falls into the category that you think they belong in.

Well I'll just tell you this, you're wrong, and you aren't in my ballpark.

I wasn't making any direct reference whatsoever to you or your betting strategy in any of my posts, so you really need to stop being so tetchy and taking things so personally.

If you actually look back at my posts, I said: "the vast majority of players that would be moaning about this 1% fee wouldn't be doing even the basic things necessary to hone their betting strategy in the first place to make the absolute best possible returns on their betting", and I am most likely correct in that statement.

**rangerz2478** · 09-28-16, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by luctens

I wasn't making any direct reference whatsoever to you your betting strategy in any of my posts, so you really need to stop being so tetchy and taking things so personally.

If you actually look back at my posts, I said the vast majority of players moaning about this would be in the situation of not doing the basic things necessary to get the best returns from their betting strategies in the first place, and I am most likely correct in that statement.

Well I am the one who stated this post, and I am the one bringing up the topic. So if you are going to say that in my thread, you are talking to me.

**Optional** · 09-28-16, 08:07 PM

Just for a bit of perspective. Skrill takes around 4.5% when converting from US$ or Euro to my Australian dollars.

Standard bank charges have included a 1.5% to 2.5% premium above spot rate for currency conversions forever.

They justify this as covering their risk of short term rate changes.

I've been wondering how those converting large sums of bitcoin back and forward can really not be losing a small percentage consistently for the same reason.

A disclosed 1% fee would be fine and reasonable imho.

Although I am sure even that much would cause a wave of people who have never even thought about currency exchange implications in their lives to immediately demand that "there is no cost or reason to charge anything".

**rangerz2478** · 09-28-16, 08:07 PM

Putting everything else aside...

If you walk into a bank, go up to the teller to make a cash withdrawal, and she tells you "sorry sir, we just implemented a 1% fee on withdrawals even though every other bank charges nothing for the same service."

Your reaction would be "oh well, I should just work on making more money so it doesn't effect me."

As I said, ignorant. (and that was the nice word I used when there are far worse that can and should be)

**rangerz2478** · 09-28-16, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Optional

Just for a bit of perspective. Skrill takes around 4.5% when converting from US$ or Euro to my Australian dollars.

Standard bank charges have included a 1.5% to 2.5% premium above spot rate for currency conversions forever.

They justify this as covering their risk of short term rate changes.

I've been wondering how those converting large sums of bitcoin back and forward can really not be losing a small percentage consistently for the same reason.

A disclosed 1% fee would be fine and reasonable imho.

Although I am sure even that much would cause a wave of people who have never even thought about currency exchange implications in their lives to immediately demand that "there is no cost or reason to charge anything".

Opti, the main point here is that every single other book that I have personally used does NOT charge as much for the same service. So bringing up other methods really isn't a valid argument. Trust me, I have used all that has been available (check, wire, debit card, etc) and pay the fees without blinking an eye as it is a cost of doing business.

But this is different. I don't need to tell you why people choose to use bitcoin but a big part of the reason are the fees or lackthereof. Also as I am sure you know, there are other fees involved with bitcoin that go beyond what the book does or doesn't charge. (exchange fees, ach fees, wire fees, etc) Also, if the fee is 1% on the spread which sounds exactly like what it is, that should be documented. For example, betonline charges 2% but they advertise exactly that.

**evo34** · 09-28-16, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Optional

Just for a bit of perspective. Skrill takes around 4.5% when converting from US$ or Euro to my Australian dollars.

Standard bank charges have included a 1.5% to 2.5% premium above spot rate for currency conversions forever.

They justify this as covering their risk of short term rate changes.

I've been wondering how those converting large sums of bitcoin back and forward can really not be losing a small percentage consistently for the same reason.

A disclosed 1% fee would be fine and reasonable imho.

Although I am sure even that much would cause a wave of people who have never even thought about currency exchange implications in their lives to immediately demand that "there is no cost or reason to charge anything".

The key word is "disclosed." Also, BTC exchanges don't typically have spreads and fees that add up to 2% for high-volume users.

What banks charge for traditional currency trades is not terribly relevant IMO, since we are not dealing with banks nor fiat currency.

**Optional** · 09-28-16, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by rangerz2478

Opti, the main point here is that every single other book that I have personally used does NOT charge as much for the same service. So bringing up other methods really isn't a valid argument. Trust me, I have used all that has been available (check, wire, debit card, etc) and pay the fees without blinking an eye as it is a cost of doing business.

But this is different. I don't need to tell you why people choose to use bitcoin but a big part of the reason are the fees or lackthereof. Also as I am sure you know, there are other fees involved with bitcoin that go beyond what the book does or doesn't charge. (exchange fees, ach fees, wire fees, etc) Also, if the fee is 1% on the spread which sounds exactly like what it is, that should be documented. For example, betonline charges 2% but they advertise exactly that.

I wasn't arguing. I was offering perspective about what currency exchange transactions traditionally cost. Which I think many people do not realize from some comments.

And I do get that Americans are just not used to even thinking about anything else but the US$ value whilst the rest of the world can likely tell you exchange rates against their currency and at least one or two others off the top of their head. Even third world nations. So I do understand the angry assumptions some US people make. But currency conversion costs are relevant no matter what the currency. Bitcoin included. Unless you think that neither you or the book ever plans to convert it.

Originally posted by evo34

The key word is "disclosed." Also, BTC exchanges don't typically have spreads and fees that add up to 2% for high-volume users.

What banks charge for traditional currency trades is not terribly relevant IMO, since we are not dealing with banks nor fiat currency.

I get this can be a confusing concept but you are dealing with fiat currency exchange rates and banking issues doing this. You are depositing in bitcoin which is converted to a US$ value for betting. There is a % of risk on top due to that exchange. That risk % compounds when it comes back out.

I agree due to there not being layers of profiteering on top, like traditional banking, that bitcoin transfers are and should be way way cheaper than banks. Don't kid yourself it is cost free just because you can't see those costs directly though.

And yes disclosure is key or people are always going to be suspicious of how its calculated.

**luctens** · 09-28-16, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by rangerz2478

Well I am the one who stated this post, and I am the one bringing up the topic. So if you are going to say that in my thread, you are talking to me.

Originally posted by rangerz2478

Putting everything else aside...

If you walk into a bank, go up to the teller to make a cash withdrawal, and she tells you "sorry sir, we just implemented a 1% fee on withdrawals even though every other bank charges nothing for the same service."

Your reaction would be "oh well, I should just work on making more money so it doesn't effect me."

As I said, ignorant. (and that was the nice word I used when there are far worse that can and should be)

It's "your" thread now is it? Do I need to ask permission to post in "your" thread or can I post just this one time please sir?

Jesus Christ you really do need to lighten up and stop taking things so personally.

The fact is that I was speaking in general about all of the sort of bettors that moan about this sort of thing, not about you directly, and you know it, so stop trying to play the big tough guy defending "your" thread. And good god, ignorant is the "nice word" you called me and you are threatening to call me something worse than ignorant, please stop while I wet my pants out of fear.

Whatever the worse than "nice word" you were going to call me, it would be even further from the truth than a nicey word like ignorant, because ignorant is completely incorrect as I have made an extremely accurate point.

As I've already said a 1% fee isn't a good thing, but the truth is that for the vast majority of punters, there are a lot more things that they should be worrying about with improving their betting strategy that they haven't even thought of or can't be bothered to do which would make a far greater difference to their bankroll than this 1% fee. So it's all about priorities in that you should firstly sort out the things that will improve your betting returns the most before even considering worrying about this tiddly in comparison 1% fee.

**Legions36** · 09-28-16, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by evo34

The spread is nowhere near 2% wide in any decent exchange, so BM is either getting screwed by their processor, or, much more likely, they are pocketing nearly 1% off each payout. Either way, it's total BS if it's anywhere near 1% on average. Can someone confirm rangerz' experience?

I can confirm bookmaker and fam starting this type of stuff over summer, I can confirm on numerous occasions with deposits costing $3-4 less and cashouts a few dollars less as well, good thing is they don't charge for payouts.
I can confirm Betonline many times doing this worse than bookmaker with deposit and payout short change, and this isn't the 2% fee they charge, also before they stopped the 6.5% deposit fee it wasn't that either. But who am I kidding or what do I know cause according to Optional I'm delusional on this matter and all the other players I heard about getting this same stuff too.
At least places like Youwager and some others give it back on the other end, not both ways.
I'm sure all this short change has added up to thousands already.

**Legions36** · 09-28-16, 09:55 PM

But all in all I love all my books I use. I love Bookmaker, Betonline, and any other good book I use. I hope the feedback actually gets them to stop whatever they are doing. It worked with Betonline and they stopped the 6.5% fee which I'm glad they finally got rid of it.

**Optional** · 09-28-16, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Legions36

I can confirm bookmaker and fam starting this type of stuff over summer, I can confirm on numerous occasions with deposits costing $3-4 less and cashouts a few dollars less as well, good thing is they don't charge for payouts.
I can confirm Betonline many times doing this worse than bookmaker with deposit and payout short change, and this isn't the 2% fee they charge, also before they stopped the 6.5% deposit fee it wasn't that either. But who am I kidding or what do I know cause according to Optional I'm delusional on this matter and all the other players I heard about getting this same stuff too.
At least places like Youwager and some others give it back on the other end, not both ways.
I'm sure all this short change has added up to thousands already.

Just stop Legions.

It is very easy for anyone to check the rate Betonline offer as they tell you on the deposit form before you do it.

I've checked it many times during your idiotic rants saying otherwise... but once again here is a screen shot showing that Betonline are offering bitcoin at 0.03% worse than the Coinbase publiched rate which was $603.69 at the moment I made this request.

The OP here would be an impatial witness no? He says he has made max withdraws multiple times and always received fair rates.

Where is your evidence apart from ranting on like someone who simply does not understand what they are talking about?

As I said multiple times when you continued to allege they cheated you to do the same as me and SHOW everyone a moment when they do not offer a fair rate.

You haven't because you can't!

I told you last time that if you continued to bash the book and post this same lie over and again you would receive an infraction. This is the last warning. Put up or STFU.

**raiders72001** · 09-28-16, 10:18 PM

What Bookmaker posted is unclear. When they say "last price", where did they get the last price? It has to be from an exchange and we should know which exchange. They are buying and selling from an exchange.

I'm in the corner of the guys that think 1% is huge. It means everything to those betting a decent volume. Bitcoin books don't charge. Most pick up the miner's fee. If the bitcoin books can do it, then fiat books should be able to do it.

Bookmaker is a great book but we have to know the charges incurred for deposits and withdrawals.

**Optional** · 09-28-16, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by raiders72001

What Bookmaker posted is unclear. When they say "last price", where did they get the last price? It has to be from an exchange and we should know which exchange. They are buying and selling from an exchange.

I'm in the corner of the guys that think 1% is huge. It means everything to those betting a decent volume. Bitcoin books don't charge. Most pick up the miner's fee. If the bitcoin books can do it, then fiat books should be able to do it.

Bookmaker is a great book but we have to know the charges incurred for deposits and withdrawals.

Bitcoin books are probably also bitcoin investors and also never have to convert it, in or out, so I am sure if you think about it you would see that fiat books do have obvious costs that bitcoin books dont.

**raiders72001** · 09-28-16, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Optional

Bitcoin books are probably also bitcoin investors and also never have to convert it, in or out, so I am sure if you think about it you would see that fiat books do have obvious costs that bitcoin books dont.

True

**Alfa1234** · 09-29-16, 02:38 AM

Got a withdrawal yesterday in my blockchain wallet, it was exactly the amount I requested in EURO equivalent so I'm thinking they just take the Blockchain value.

**rangerz2478** · 09-29-16, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Alfa1234

Got a withdrawal yesterday in my blockchain wallet, it was exactly the amount I requested in EURO equivalent so I'm thinking they just take the Blockchain value.

Maybe it's somehow different with the euro exchange rate but for usd it is absolutely not the blockchain value because that is the amount I quoted many times in here.

**rangerz2478** · 09-29-16, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Alfa1234

Got a withdrawal yesterday in my blockchain wallet, it was exactly the amount I requested in EURO equivalent so I'm thinking they just take the Blockchain value.

How much was your payout?

**raiders72001** · 09-29-16, 05:49 AM

Is Bookmaker using this price? https://blockchain.info/wallet/price-of-one-bitcoin

Blockchain.info USD/EUR uses the Bitstamp price.

Coinbase price will be higher.

**Alfa1234** · 09-29-16, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by rangerz2478

Maybe it's somehow different with the euro exchange rate but for usd it is absolutely not the blockchain value because that is the amount I quoted many times in here.

Well, I can only ask for a max of 2.5k € every time. My account is in euro, but in the confirmation mail they convert it back to USD at the standard rate which was 2808.99USD. I got 4.63702591 btc which was exactly my 2.5k euro so yes, they are using the price in your link.

Even though my balance is in euro, every financial transaction is coverted back into USD with them (I deposited in euro, but my Neteller got charged in USD).

**Legions36** · 09-29-16, 07:02 AM

The last time you posted numbers about Betonline you said they were giving you $3 extra than what Bitcoins were worth at the time. Today you just posted that Betonline was giving $2 less than what they were worth, which is a good day for them, sometimes is more than that. At least you publicly posted the difference this time and I haven't said anything others haven't said anyway so if I get another infraction for what I have said so be it then everyone will know your word means nothing. Your just mad because someone won't completely agree with you all the time. And your trying to stick up and say that Betonline could never do such a thing, oh yeah sure they wouldn't they only added a 6.5% fee for all that time just for a deposit. Instead of arguing with me on this just start a poll and get player feedback from these books cashier at the times they deposit on what they are charging, I'm sure you will be surprised at the feedback you get from it.

**Optional** · 09-29-16, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Legions36

The last time you posted numbers about Betonline you said they were giving you $3 extra than what Bitcoins were worth at the time. Today you just posted that Betonline was giving $2 less than what they were worth, which is a good day for them, sometimes is more than that. At least you publicly posted the difference this time and I haven't said anything others haven't said anyway so if I get another infraction for what I have said so be it then everyone will know your word means nothing. Your just mad because someone won't completely agree with you all the time. And your trying to stick up and say that Betonline could never do such a thing, oh yeah sure they wouldn't they only added a 6.5% fee for all that time just for a deposit. Instead of arguing with me on this just start a poll and get player feedback from these books cashier at the times they deposit on what they are charging, I'm sure you will be surprised at the feedback you get from it.

You're in lala land Legions. 2 bucks over or 3 bucks under the blockchain.info no spread price is fair. You are now just grasping at straws to try and back up your claim.

And player feedback? We got it when you wouldn't stop making this claim last time... At no time over days and a multitude of your posts about it did even one person post that they agreed with you. This thread is the very first time anyone has pointed out anything credible about any book's exchange rates not being completely vig free. You are simply wrong and for a smart guy seem strangely unable to grasp that for some reason.

And whatever you say you "have heard", how on earth can you continue with this after being shown its fair with a screenshot and challenged to show proof of otherwise? I've only discussed this with you for this long as you are a respected long time contributor. Just show the damn proof, put me in my place, and SBR will look into it! Or drop it for gawds sake.

**Legions36** · 09-29-16, 07:23 AM

I just checked Opti and I'm getting the same numbers you get today with the bitcoin price Betonline has but that is just today, it could be more or less tomorrow or next week.
Oh you must be a bitcoin newb then if your comparing the bitcoin rate to Coinbase....lol....everyone knows Coinbase juices up the price at least by $5, next you will compare Circle which is more than Coinbase by $8 usually...lol at least know what your talking about then trying this much to be right.
Can I get back to my life now instead of having stop it while drinking my coffee, for you?

**garvardntl** · 09-29-16, 07:27 AM

A thorough test would be useful for bettors and a great click bait for SBR. You should do it.

**evo34** · 09-30-16, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by Optional

Bitcoin books are probably also bitcoin investors and also never have to convert it, in or out, so I am sure if you think about it you would see that fiat books do have obvious costs that bitcoin books dont.

Well, if a Bitcoin book is legit, they are keeping customer funds in BTC bc they are keeping them separate from company assets. I.e., nothing to do with being a bitcoin "investor," since they do not own the deposits (again, assuming legit books). Their business is, however, indirectly exposed to the viability of BTC; so if they are also keeping a decent pct. of company assets invested in BTC, they are complete idiots. I would like to think/hope they are not that stupid.

Not that this is the right thing to do, but I imagine if anything, some Bitcoin books are converting a certain pct. of client deposits to fiat currency, effectively becoming short BTC.

**TheMoneyShot** · 10-07-16, 09:47 PM

I know there's a lot of different opinions in this thread about the going rate. But I have a simple question.

When you are asking for a PO with any book. What is the fair percentage lost when requesting a PO with Bitcoin?

Are we talking 0.30% 0.40% loss? Can someone give me a good estimate? Thanks.

**rangerz2478** · 10-07-16, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by TheMoneyShot

I know there's a lot of different opinions in this thread about the going rate. But I have a simple question.

When you are asking for a PO with any book. What is the fair percentage lost when requesting a PO with Bitcoin?

Are we talking 0.30% 0.40% loss? Can someone give me a good estimate? Thanks.

I'd say on average it's around 0.2%, maybe about $10 for every $5000.

**rangerz2478** · 10-07-16, 09:59 PM

For the record, I've gotten 2 more bm payouts in the last week, both were for 10k, and both times got right around $9950. So they have slightly improved, but can do better.

**TheMoneyShot** · 10-08-16, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by rangerz2478

I'd say on average it's around 0.2%, maybe about $10 for every $5000.

Thanks a lot! I really appreciate your input

**luctens** · 10-08-16, 01:04 AM

You've all got to understand that Bitcoin is a different currency to US Dollar or whatever other currency, so there are going to be costs involved in translating your currency to Bitcoin currency.

For example with e-wallets, even with you are an extremely high volume customer, the absolute lowest currency exchange fees you are going to get is 1.00%-1.50%%, but often around 2.00%-2.50%, and for lower volume customers it is up to around 3.00%-4.00%. So you've got to understand that even with you losing 1.00% when translating dollars to Bitcoin or the other way, customers translating in normal currencies through e-wallets and other payment mechanisms would be ecstatic with only 1.00% currency exchange fees, but you lot are moaning about 1.00% when translating Bitcoin.

You've got to understand that Bitcoin is a different currency to dollars, so there will be currency exchange fees when translating USD to Bitcoin and the other way round, just as there would be translating USD to EUR or any other currency, so given users transacting in any other currencies with any other payment methods across the world would be ecstatic with 1.00% currency exchange fees, 1.00% currency exchange fees for you transacting in Bitcoin are absolutely nothing for you to be moaning about whatsoever.

**rangerz2478** · 10-08-16, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by luctens

You've all got to understand that Bitcoin is a different currency to US Dollar or whatever other currency, so there are going to be costs involved in translating your currency to Bitcoin currency.

For example with e-wallets, even with you are an extremely high volume customer, the absolute lowest currency exchange fees you are going to get is 1.00%-1.50%%, but often around 2.00%-2.50%, and for lower volume customers it is up to around 3.00%-4.00%. So you've got to understand that even with you losing 1.00% when translating dollars to Bitcoin or the other way, customers translating in normal currencies through e-wallets and other payment mechanisms would be ecstatic with only 1.00% currency exchange fees, but you lot are moaning about 1.00% when translating Bitcoin.

You've got to understand that Bitcoin is a different currency to dollars, so there will be currency exchange fees when translating USD to Bitcoin and the other way round, just as there would be translating USD to EUR or any other currency, so given users transacting in any other currencies with any other payment methods across the world would be ecstatic with 1.00% currency exchange fees, 1.00% currency exchange fees for you transacting in Bitcoin are absolutely nothing for you to be moaning about whatsoever.

How many times in this thread does someone need to say we are monitoring the difference between the book in question here (bookmaker) compared to what is received from other bitcoin books? We don't need a lesson in bitcoin exchange rates or the fact that it's different from USD. I swear it's like you just say things to hear yourself speak and pat yourself on the back for sounding smart, compared to actually understanding the issue.