GOD

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by raydog

god kills innocent children.. along with the bad, god kills the nicest, most giving people...god ruins lives never presents miracles... when bad happens, you say its not gods control and its the sins of others, but when good happens, its always god god god... how can you sit there and rationally believe in this? how come god never has to take blame for shitty stuff? its always placed on sinners or we get the "god has a plan" excuse... i have no idea what it takes to make people so gullible that they will make up asinine excuses for and unproven fairy tale... honestly, its mind boggling the amount of bullshit, from god, that christians will put up with... astonishing how much pain he brings and you gullible people continue to take it with stride...

Did The Messiah wash the feet of Judas, the one who betrayed Him to the cross, just think about that for a minute... After feeding the poor, healing the sick and blind, even raising the dead, not one time had He sinned, what did He get ? Betrayed, cursed, whipped, humiliated, spat on, then hung on wood..

Food for thought

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by jtoler

Which brings me to the question I asked many many pages ago, if someone truly doesnt believe something exists who would debate it daily for months, makes no sense to me. Ive come across this from "nonbelievers" a long time, I simply dont believe that they dont believe there is no God, seems they just want a sign, some proof, but the proof is attached to the requirements in His word which He says He will move on, yet nobody likes that answer so they stick with the peripheral and an endless debate ensues.

did it ever occur to you that i really like to know what makes people minds work? what it takes to make someone believe in something so realistic that they would watch their child die a horrible death and still praise this god... im not trying to turn anyone away from something that makes them a better person, im just trying to understand why you are so certain, when there is so much obvious made up garbage that is believed... you were told to believe, so you do...no matter how unrealistic and ridiculous it may be, you still believe because you are scared into doing so....its an awful way to live... you quit thinking for yourself a long time ago... ugly sign of weakness and gullible trust in the biggest hoax ever presented... cant you understand why the "answers" given are ridiculous and leave nothing but holes? i guess not

and no, there is no doubt in my rational and realistic mind that there is no god... unless its somehow proven, by a guy walking on water or creating things out of thin air or bringing back the dead etc etc. ill have the same answer when asked... and im also morally better, more forgiving and more generous than most i know... it has nothing to do with any doubt or trying to please an unproven god, just in case... it pleases me to help

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 02:05 AM

So raydog, what do you think of this shriner ? he says he helps people but worships lucifer, he made his choice and that's ultimate deception...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1hnkp5Zqw

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by raydog

did it ever occur to you that i really like to know what makes people minds work? what it takes to make someone believe in something so realistic that they would watch their child die a horrible death and still praise this god... im not trying to turn anyone away from something that makes them a better person, im just trying to understand why you are so certain, when there is so much obvious made up garbage that is believed... you were told to believe, so you do...no matter how unrealistic and ridiculous it may be, you still believe because you are scared into doing so....its an awful way to live... you quit thinking for yourself a long time ago... ugly sign of weakness and gullible trust in the biggest hoax ever presented... cant you understand why the "answers" given are ridiculous and leave nothing but holes? i guess not

and no, there is no doubt in my rational and realistic mind that there is no god... unless its somehow proven, by a guy walking on water or creating things out of thin air or bringing back the dead etc etc. ill have the same answer when asked... and im also morally better, more forgiving and more generous than most i know... it has nothing to do with any doubt or trying to please an unproven god, just in case... it pleases me to help

Same answer Ive given here, even tonight, there is proof when you do the things He said do to see Him move. If He said pray and seek my face with all your heart then will I hear from heaven and bless you and some do and are changed, some never do it and remain non believing then thats understandable. So its the same recurring theme if one never does what He says do to become a witness how can they ever truly know and believe.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 02:27 AM

haha.. sounds like he has as firm a grasp on the bible as some of the people who wrote about/made up stories about jesus without ever meeting him or even being alive during the same time...

i dont care who or what you worship... your morals and actions towards others are whats important, imo... i understand people are raised certain ways and in different parts of the world and some simply dont have a say so in the matter... its a shame that christians are forced to believe all that is written in the bible... so many different dates of scriptures and there is no telling what the bible Panel left out or put in or made up... the dates are all screwy and, again, there is no evidence that many of the people involved ever knew or even lived in the time of jc...and yet believers refuse to admit these bible flaws and brush them off ...

i remember my grandma threatening me to make sure i believed ... she had an iq of a child and could barely read, but she sure as shit was convinced in god...why? because her mother and grandmother threatened her when she was a kid... nobody wanted to die and go to a fiery hell

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by jtoler

Same answer Ive given here, even tonight, there is proof when you do the things He said do to see Him move. If He said pray and seek my face with all your heart then will I hear from heaven and bless you and some do and are changed, some never do it and remain non believing then thats understandable. So its the same recurring theme if one never does what He says do to become a witness how can they ever truly know and believe.

you believe in the bible... i believe its utter bullshit... a book used for teaching morals, but the outrageous stories are too much to take and, for the rational, its a book made to scare people into being good... why did this miracle worker suddenly cut off the rest of the world of these supposedly seen miracles, thousands of years ago... now all you have are doctored unproven stories of fantasy... no proof, no signs and nothing but horrible death and misery everyday... more importantly, nobody has been given any powers to help prove the god theory...

when good happens, you praise god... when good happens to me, i praise myself... christians dont give themselves enough credit...

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by raydog

haha.. sounds like he has as firm a grasp on the bible as some of the people who wrote about/made up stories about jesus without ever meeting him or even being alive during the same time...

i dont care who or what you worship... your morals and actions towards others are whats important, imo... i understand people are raised certain ways and in different parts of the world and some simply dont have a say so in the matter... its a shame that christians are forced to believe all that is written in the bible... so many different dates of scriptures and there is no telling what the bible Panel left out or put in or made up... the dates are all screwy and, again, there is no evidence that many of the people involved ever knew or even lived in the time of jc...and yet believers refuse to admit these bible flaws and brush them off ...

i remember my grandma threatening me to make sure i believed ... she had an iq of a child and could barely read, but she sure as shit was convinced in god...why? because her mother and grandmother threatened her when she was a kid... nobody wanted to die and go to a fiery hell

If we are just ignorant, gullible, and dumb.... Why even entertain the idea of
" how we think " ... Your not making much sense here.

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 03:02 AM

Brain you're a kind and tolerant brother to deal with these guys as you do lol.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by brainfreeze

If we are just ignorant, gullible, and dumb.... Why even entertain the idea of
" how we think " ... Your not making much sense here.

i answer questions out of courtesy, same as you... without that, there wouldnt be a thread ... and try to understand why you guys think the way you do... i have a hard time understanding how rational adults, like yourself, can believe in something, that on paper, seems so extremely far fetched...

i dont like bringing fairy tales into the mix, but there are plenty of modern day fairy tales that are told in order to brainwash kids into being good... how do you know the bible/god wasnt the original tale taught to scare all ages into believing and acting a certain way? i mean seriously, if god was so sick of the people on earth that he created a flood, surely those people were nowhere near as bad as they are today...yet nothing happens that isnt easily explained... i just dont get where you guys find your proof within and yet there is no proof in the outside world

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 03:52 AM

Originally posted by raydog

i answer questions out of courtesy, same as you... without that, there wouldnt be a thread ... and try to understand why you guys think the way you do... i have a hard time understanding how rational adults, like yourself, can believe in something, that on paper, seems so extremely far fetched...

i dont like bringing fairy tales into the mix, but there are plenty of modern day fairy tales that are told in order to brainwash kids into being good... how do you know the bible/god wasnt the original tale taught to scare all ages into believing and acting a certain way? i mean seriously, if god was so sick of the people on earth that he created a flood, surely those people were nowhere near as bad as they are today...yet nothing happens that isnt easily explained... i just dont get where you guys find your proof within and yet there is no proof in the outside world

Not making any sense.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 04:12 AM

what doesnt make sense? you think its uncommon for people to believe the bible was created in order to scare people into being better and acting with better morals? lolz

i said this before...if you have never heard of god and you read the bible, you would get a good giggle, think its a book for teaching children right from wrong and think it belonged in the science fiction section of the library ...

its utter nonsense and if its lack of notable phenomenal miracles (well 0 to be exact) since it was compiled, isnt a clue to you that its fiction at its finest, then there is little else to say... you were told to believe and thats okay ... how people can believe, after all the death and grief brought about, truly takes a level of faith that ill never possess ... i see things for what they are and would be embarrassed to constantly have to make up excuses for why my god continues to punish the most innocent, kind and why he leaves his sheep so clueless...

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 04:27 AM

Lack of notable phenomenal miracles? There was death and grief back then also.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 04:33 AM

do you seriously need me to recite all the ridiculous "miracles" the old and new testaments claim?

there was and always be death and grief.. you think they are related to god... they arent

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 04:45 AM

Why are they ridiculous? I don't get why they would be. If you saw a miracle it doesn't mean you will believe, that needs to be understood.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 05:08 AM

i think i would give some serious thought to believing if i saw a man part the sea ... actually walk on water ... a sea turn to blood... a woman turn to salt... a resurrection or the healings jesus performed...etc... the fact that nothing even remotely close to these occurrences have taken place since the days of jc and before, gives us a pretty good clue of what is bullshit ... dont ya think? really, none of those seem ridiculous to you? not at all? oh dear

all im saying is that there is no way the bible, alone, could earn my trust in believing in a god...

**rkelly110** · 02-10-15, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by raydog

unfortunately, this is why i am so adamant with my beliefs ... ive never seen proof and never will...there is always an explanation for everything...

and no, i dont have a story... and i firmly believe that those who do, have either come to that conclusion out of last resort ignorance, drugs or they are sheep that have been brainwashed since they were old enough to attend church and think that, by some chance, god has spoken to them... an act of kindness or unexpected help is just that... why you think this is the work of a god, is beyond me... people dont need god or faith in order to be good... but again, i have never had an instance where i was fortunate enough to think that God gave me this help or blessing... i make my own bed and i accept the fact that i can be run over by a car tomorrow...

its been over 25yrs since i said a prayer to god... i have "prayed" /talked to myself, "i hope for so and so"...knowing i was only hoping for good luck to come about... but ive never been in a situation where i all of a sudden started praying for Gods help... I never will

i dont believe in spirits/ghosts/heaven/hell either .. i believe those things rest solely in the minds of the God fearing and are as unproven as god itself.

Sorry you feel that way. Miracles happen everyday, all around you, you just have to open your eyes to them.

A fine example: Did you see that snow news story of a guy in a pickup truck smashed between two tractor trailers?
Truck is wrapped all around him. They took pictures of him squashed between the two trucks before freed.
He walked away with a few scratches. If that wasn't a miracle, IDK what was. Lucky, coincidence? I'll bet you'll
say yes.

Until you open your mind to your surroundings, you will never believe. Not saying if there's a god or not, but
there's definitely a higher power that we don't understand.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 08:42 AM

for every story like that, there are plenty more involving a minor fender bender that breaks someones neck... these examples fall in the Luck category ... but a miracle to you? i guess we have a different definition of that ...

the problem i see is that christians think that entirely too much falls in this "miracle" category ... a kid gets sick and then is healed by modern medicine...oh its a miracle... man loses his job and applies for 100 more and gets one...oh its a miracle... woman spits out a child...its not a miracle, it happens thousands of times a day ... now i know you are going to say that childbirth is a miracle...childbirth is great, but its not a Virgin birth...now thats a miracle along the lines i am referring to... the others are everyday occurrences

we have never seen anything like what supposedly takes place in the bible... nothing even close...not since the days of historic jc and before... you know why? because those things are impossible and unrealistic ... sorry, i just need hard facts in order to devote myself and my time to a god... i hope thats understandable

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by jtoler

Why are they ridiculous? I don't get why they would be. If you saw a miracle it doesn't mean you will believe, that needs to be understood.

Peter actually walked on water with Jesus, and still denied Him 3x's ...there's stuff happening daily that scientist can not explain.. He forgets the Word itself testifies as well, it withstood the times,

…24For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, 25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by raydog

for every story like that, there are plenty more involving a minor fender bender that breaks someones neck... these examples fall in the Luck category ... but a miracle to you? i guess we have a different definition of that ...

the problem i see is that christians think that entirely too much falls in this "miracle" category ... a kid gets sick and then is healed by modern medicine...oh its a miracle... man loses his job and applies for 100 more and gets one...oh its a miracle... woman spits out a child...its not a miracle, it happens thousands of times a day ... now i know you are going to say that childbirth is a miracle...childbirth is great, but its not a Virgin birth...now thats a miracle along the lines i am referring to... the others are everyday occurrences

we have never seen anything like what supposedly takes place in the bible... nothing even close...not since the days of historic jc and before... you know why? because those things are impossible and unrealistic ... sorry, i just need hard facts in order to devote myself and my time to a god... i hope thats understandable

I could share stuff but you wasnt there so you wouldnt believe it, but people have seen others declared dead and been raised, but you probably dont believe that either. Miracles are just that miracles, it often takes great faith to be a part of perhaps what youre referring to, but each and every one of us are vessels that God can work through for such to occur, though its not as if he needs any of us. Oftentimes we are waiting on God when in fact He's waiting on us. Its not about Him coming down to our level its about us reaching His level, by that being through faith in believing He's able to do what He said He would. Faith starts small you cultivate it and it grows.

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by brainfreeze

Peter actually walked on water with Jesus, and still denied Him 3x's ...there's stuff happening daily that scientist can not explain.. He forgets the Word itself testifies as well, it withstood the times,

…24For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, 25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

Yes thats a great example, also Luke 16;31 - And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by jtoler

Brain you're a kind and tolerant brother to deal with these guys as you do lol.

Thanks for the compliment, if God could wait on me for so long, I feel it necessary we do the same.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 09:53 AM

people being brought back to life or actually having no heart beat for a short amount of time is nothing new... especially when dealing with hypothermia... i know a thing or two about this too, jtoler...and its not a miracle...there is quite a bit of science behind it... people dont die for a day or longer and come back though... mary and her intact hymen didnt give birth as a virgin... its 100% impossible for a human to do this, but you can ignore hard facts some more...

lolz... what scientist cant explain and a fable, in the bible, of men walking on water thousands of years ago, are faaaaaaaar from being the same thing... another fact, man cant walk on water... but for some reason you think jesus could? smh

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by raydog

people being brought back to life or actually having no heart beat for a short amount of time is nothing new... especially when dealing with hypothermia... i know a thing or two about this too, jtoler...and its not a miracle...there is quite a bit of science behind it... people dont die for a day or longer and come back though... mary and her intact hymen didnt give birth as a virgin... its 100% impossible for a human to do this, but you can ignore hard facts some more...

lolz... what scientist cant explain and a fable, in the bible, of men walking on water thousands of years ago, are faaaaaaaar from being the same thing... another fact, man cant walk on water... but for some reason you think jesus could? smh

Dead for days bro. God transcends science, what is so hard to understand about that.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 09:58 AM

getting away from our discussion a bit, here is a video, somewhat made for fun, but if you believe in the bible, you might be disappointed to see its truths (if you believe in all the bible)

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 10:08 AM

Here's a spine surgeon " medical field " ... She has a interesting story.

Author | Dr. Mary Neal

http://drmaryneal.com

Dr. Mary Neal, NYT Best-Selling author of "To Heaven and Back" and "7 Lessons from Heaven"

**jtoler** · 02-10-15, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by raydog

getting away from our discussion a bit, here is a video, somewhat made for fun, but if you believe in the bible, you might be disappointed to see its truths (if you believe in all the bible)

Ignorance is bliss.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 10:14 AM

i dont read bible thumpers stories about dying, going to heaven and being sent back... its bullshit of epic proportions, bf.. cmon ... made up crap to sell books or claim fame... so funny about the kid who got busted lying his ass off not long ago...

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by jtoler

Ignorance is bliss.

what do you mean? every quote in that video is taken straight from scripture in the book you guys love to quote from... you dont seem to understand just how much bullshit in the bible contradicts itself time and time again.. its okay... you were TOLD to believe.. i understand

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by jtoler

Ignorance is bliss.

At least it seems that way.... and the Bible doesn't teach what he said, he has a distorted view.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

As for teaching the law, law is for flesh, and it is good but to be born again means to walk in Spirit.

…22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.…

I'm not going to correct the guys whole video but there's a start...

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by jtoler

Dead for days bro. God transcends science, what is so hard to understand about that.

are you trying to tell me you were present to see someone come back to life after being dead for days? i hope this isnt what you are telling me...

god is imaginary... what is so hard to understand about that?

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by brainfreeze

At least it seems that way.... and the Bible doesn't teach what he said, he has a distorted view.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

As for teaching the law, law is for flesh, and it is good but to be born again means to walk in Spirit.

…22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.…

I'm not going to correct the guys whole video but there's a start...

i would think you would correct it all if it were all false, so obviously there are some truths as far as scripture goes... i dont believe enough of the bible to care, i just thought it gave a different point of view...

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by raydog

i dont read bible thumpers stories about dying, going to heaven and being sent back... its bullshit of epic proportions, bf.. cmon ... made up crap to sell books or claim fame... so funny about the kid who got busted lying his ass off not long ago...

So now everyone is just a liar... Woman's a surgeon, got big money... Why in the world would she need to bother herself with this ? Then predicting her sons death ten years later, and the kid didn't get busted, he came out and told the truth, one kid.... Out of thousands of stories, you just don't want to have any of this, shakes your world a bit, the impossible, unknown, unexplained, to think everyone is lying to you with these stories is unrealistic

**brainfreeze** · 02-10-15, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by raydog

i would think you would correct it all if it were all false, so obviously there are some truths as far as scripture goes... i dont believe enough of the bible to care, i just thought it gave a different point of view...

I'm showing you what stuck out, meaning the video is a lie partial or not and I just proved it... If I corrected every atheist video to the T, I'd have time for nothing else.

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by brainfreeze

So now everyone is just a liar... Woman's a surgeon, got big money... Why in the world would she need to bother herself with this ? Then predicting her sons death ten years later, and the kid didn't get busted, he came out and told the truth, one kid.... Out of thousands of stories, you just don't want to have any of this, shakes your world a bit, the impossible, unknown, unexplained, to think everyone is lying to you with these stories is unrealistic

she was a bible thumper before... you need spend a little time studying the cascades of brain activity that explains the "light" people claim when dying... also, there is no telling what drugs she had been pumped with or if she was in a dream state... im not saying she is lying... im saying it didnt actually happen, but she could have been dreaming it, or imagining it because of the drugs... i could have laid 6/5 odds that this broad would come back with some bullshit story of meeting god or heaven.. its all in her mind.. she had been thinking of the day for years and years and thats how her mind invisioned it... do some research on this... nobodies soul left their body, went to heaven to meet god and then came back... you are one of those guys who will spend hard earned money to buy this kind of bullshit book...

no, i dont believe it happened and there is plenty of scientific reasoning behind what she claims she saw or what happened... was she dreaming it? is she making it up because thats what she thought would happen? was it the drugs... all of the above? do you realize how many people come up with the same thing after they are told they died? do you realize how many recant and come clean that they dont remember anything?

**raydog** · 02-10-15, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by brainfreeze

I'm showing you what stuck out, meaning the video is a lie partial or not and I just proved it... If I corrected every atheist video to the T, I'd have time for nothing else.

so there are parts of the video that arent lying? i dont want you to waste time correcting videos... i dont believe in the things they are pointing out either... but there is enough there, in beloved scripture, to make you question some things, as a believer..no?

and again, i dont think the vid was made for anyting besides poke some fun at christian beliefs...