[stevenash]

There's no right or wrong answer, it's an opinion question.

How valuable is a great baseball manager in terms of wins during the course of the season.
In other words, how many games would have a great manager won based solely on his decision making?
Conversely how many games does a shitty manager cost a team during the course of the season?

If you think it's a substantial amount of games shouldn't you include the manager in your handicapping?

[Snowball]

10-15

[Cuse0323]

Tough question. I say as much as 20, but probably on average it's 5-10. Either way. Impossible to answer, but I think a great gets you 20 more, just as a terrible manager can lose you 20 more. More about moral, in my opinion. Need a team that wants to play together.

[stevenash]

Jody McDonald father was Joe McDonald who was an advanced scout, GM and Vice President of the Mets for almost two decades, as well as GM for the Tigers and Cardinals, he was also an advanced scout for the Rockies, Angels, and at age 88 he still scouts for the Red Sox.

Anyway, Joe McDonald's best friend is Hall of Fame manager Whitey Herzog (still alive also) and loves to fish, Joe hates to fish so he asked his son Jody who has a sports/baseball radio show in Philly and NYC to go with him fishing.

For six hours Jody picked Herzog's brain everything baseball, and Jody asked Whitey this very same question, the net worth of a manager during the course of a season.

Herzog gave the question great thought, and answered like this.
"There are thirty major league managers, the 15th and 16th best manager, or middle of the pack if you will is worth no extra wins or losses. For every one game they manage to a victory, they will manage one game to a loss.
(still thinking the question over hard, Herzog added)
"There is a 10 game swing between the top and the worst managers a season. The best manager in the league will win five games a season soley on his decision making, sending up the right pinch hitter in the right situation, pulling the starter exactly when the starting pitcher should be pulled, etc. etc. etc. where as the worst manager in the majors will cost his team five games a season"

I've heard that story before, but Jody repeated it today on his show.
I thought about it a few years ago hard, and I think Herzog is probably right.
I think Earl Weaver once said five games both ways also years ago too.

But I say you also have to have the horses.
Joe Torre, who has a brilliant baseball mind was considered a shit bum when he managed the Braves, the shitty Braves before all that pitching developed for Atlanta
Then he goes to New York and is considered a genius with the Yankees.
So what he, genius or shit bum?

My opinion, and my opinion alone, Billy Martin was the greatest manager in my lifetime.

First gig as a manager Billy Martin had was in 1969 for the Twins.
1968 Twins had a meathead for a manager Cal Ermer that won only 79 games.
Twins fire Ermer, hire Martin and takes the same team to 97 and 65, almost 20 games better with the same horses and does the impossible, wins the AL West !
Too bad the 1969 Orioles happened or else Twins might have gone far, still can't believe Mets won in 1969, I was in diapers then.
Twins weren't beating that 1969 O's stacked team, amazing enough they won the west.

Martin pisses off Calvin Griffin, gets shit canned, sits out a year and gets another managerial job for the Tigers in 1971.
in 1970 Mayo Smith was the manager for the Tigers, won only 79 games (I'm seeing a pattern here) gets fired.
Tigers take a shot on Martin, take that very same 79 win Tigers to 91 and 71, good for second place, them wins the AL East in 1972.

Martin hangs around Detroit for a few years, then goes to Texas, and finishes second in his first full year with Texas in 1974 (he was hired middle of season in 1973).

Then he gets fired for drinking again in Texas, once again in mid year, gets hired by Steinbrenner (near the end of 1975 season)
The Yankees were a boring pretty much .500 team for years before 1975.
Billy Martin takes that group, wins the AL pennant in 1976, which was considered a pretty much a miracle, gets crushed by the Big Red Machine in 1976 WS, wins the whole damn thing in 1977 winning 100 games. never gets to finish the 1978 season that also won the whole damn thing again winning 100 games.

But wait, it gets better.
In 1979 Oakland won 54 games.
They were freaking 54 and 108, one of the top ten worst teams in modern baseball.
Martin takes over in 1980 finishes second, wins 83 games.
He takes a collection of hamburgers and wins 29 more games his first season.

Billy Martin has a proven track record of taking over train wrecks and instantly making them contenders.
Too bad he has a proven track record of getting snot dripping, phone booth pissing drunk and getting fired for it,